The Tragedy of Detroit - By Frosty Wooldridge

[terryh]

I agree with just about everything, but am a puzzled with the emphasis on the Muslims. Are they really causing that much trouble in Detroit?

The Muslims that are causing the problems in Europe, for the most part, I believe, migrate from Algeria, Morrocco and Pakistan. There are in Islam, as in the other two major religions, different levels of superstition and anger....interpretations etc..

[English]

Yep so right cause appalachian poor people are killing each other by the thousands as well

Sometimes political correctness is just so silly

By the way what CULTURE are you talking about?

I said what I meant. The race of Detroiters doesn't mean a thing. I grew up in Detroit, but the culture I grew up in was one of achievement, uplift, positive role models, and social responsibility. I learned how to be a good person from home, school, church, and my neighbors. I learned how to delay gratification, and to sacrifice for my future and for the sake of others. I also learned thrift, loyalty, faith, and faithfulness. These were good old fashioned working class and middle class values that apply to successful individuals and families across all races and ethnicities. It is the CULTURE that built this nation.

Your mileage may vary, but you ought to just say what you mean instead of engaging in random attacks online. If you think that Detroit's problem is race, then just say so and explain why. But you should have learned that race =/= culture in Sociology 101.

[iheartthed]

His statement wasThat would imply he moved from somewhere "less" multicultural...and on this board, the sterile, not multicultural enough "somewhere else" can only be the suburbs.

To be a little more clear...my question is; How does detroit meet any definition of multicultural any better than it's suburbs? Per 2000 census the racial makeup of the city was 81.6% Black, 12.3% White, 1.0% Asian, 0.3% Native American, 0.03% Pacific Islander, 2.5% other races, 2.3% two or more races, and 5.0 percent Hispanic [[mostly Puerto Rican and Mexican). The city's foreign-born population is at 4.8%

Now, lets look at Troy....82.30% White, 2.09% African American, 0.15% Native American, 13.25% Asian, 0.02% Pacific Islander, 0.36% from other races, and 1.82% from two or more races. 1.46% of the population is Hispanic or Latino of any race. Troy has the highest percentage of people of Asian descent of any city in Michigan.

I would think if one is looking for multi cultural, one would do just as well, or even better, in Troy.

How much of the "white" population in Troy is made up of people from western and central European ancestry? And how much of the "white" population in Detroit is made up of people whose ancestral roots are not European at all?

Also, 5% of Detroit [[the Hispanic population) is more than half the population of Troy. So what kind of diverse community does a couple hundred people of Asian descent establish in Troy? Versus 45,000 Hispanics in Detroit?

[terryh]

Funny how he doesn't seem to be bothered by Church bells ringing, only the Muslim call to prayer.

And Coleman Young perhaps the most corrupt mayor in America, next to Richard Daley?!
Correct me if I am wrong, but Mayor Young was never indicted on any charges - where is the PROOF of corruption? I was not a fan of Mayor Young, but talk about an accusation with no facts to back it up...

Back in late thirties or early forties there abouts a Mayor and some hight ranking police officials in Detroit were sentenced to Prison for accepting bribes from some racketeers....

[terryh]

I said what I meant. The race of Detroiters doesn't mean a thing. I grew up in Detroit, but the culture I grew up in was one of achievement, uplift, positive role models, and social responsibility. I learned how to be a good person from home, school, church, and my neighbors. I learned how to delay gratification, and to sacrifice for my future and for the sake of others. I also learned thrift, loyalty, faith, and faithfulness. These were good old fashioned working class and middle class values that apply to successful individuals and families across all races and ethnicities. It is the CULTURE that built this nation.

Your mileage may vary, but you ought to just say what you mean instead of engaging in random attacks online. If you think that Detroit's problem is race, then just say so and explain why. But you should have learned that race =/= culture in Sociology 101.

I agree with much of what you wrote, just want to add our goodness is innate...and or we dont need a religious institution or religion to learn how to be caring compassionate human beings....church members [[of which there are many in Detroit) can be very divisive and antagonistic to fellow members of society.....true there are many rugged pull yourself up by the bootstraps small business owners and individuals in Detroit....Ive had the pleausure of knowing many of them on a personal level

[bailey]

It doesn't make any more sense the more you repeat yourself, you know. I'm sorry you're butthurt that Rick didn't move to Troy, we all know Troy is the most multicultural place ever [[and has low taxes and good schools and all the rest). Don't worry, I'm sure someone else who knows a real multicultural community when he sees one will move in there and fill the void left by Rick's scathing rejection. Chin up, bailey.

Where did I EVER ONCE ADVOCATE MOVING TO TROY? Not once not EVER. Troy could disappear from the map and I would not notice. I simply pointed out the similar [[albeit opposite) demographics of populations. One is despised, one is apparently lauded. I'm wondering why.

Simple question bearinabox, how is Detroit a multicultural place where 8 out of 10 are one race?

Also, 5% of Detroit [[the Hispanic population) is more than half the population of Troy. So what kind of diverse community does a couple hundred people of Asian descent establish in Troy? Versus 45,000 Hispanics in Detroit

It's all relative isnt it? 80% of the city is one race... 720,000. how many more times is that the size of the next largest city in the state? if it's NOT multicultural to have 80% of Troy be white...how is it multicultural to have 80% of Detroit be black?

[Bearinabox]

Where did I EVER ONCE ADVOCATE MOVING TO TROY? Not once not EVER. Troy could disappear from the map and I would not notice. I simply pointed out the similar [[albeit opposite) demographics of populations. One is despised, one is apparently lauded. I'm wondering why.

You're the only one doing any despising here. People should be allowed to say they like where they live without you jumping all over them.

Simple question bearinabox, how is Detroit a multicultural place where 8 out of 10 are one race?

What the hell has race got to do with multiculturalism?

[English]

I agree with much of what you wrote, just want to add our goodness is innate...and or we dont need a religious institution or religion to learn how to be caring compassionate human beings....church members [[of which there are many in Detroit) can be very divisive and antagonistic to fellow members of society.....true there are many rugged pull yourself up by the bootstraps small business owners and individuals in Detroit....Ive had the pleausure of knowing many of them on a personal level

Agreed... thanks for pointing this out. Some of the very best people I know aren't Christians, and some of the worst have been regular churchgoers. It really does come down to what's in an individual heart!

[iheartthed]

Where did I EVER ONCE ADVOCATE MOVING TO TROY? Not once not EVER. Troy could disappear from the map and I would not notice. I simply pointed out the similar [[albeit opposite) demographics of populations. One is despised, one is apparently lauded. I'm wondering why.

Simple question bearinabox, how is Detroit a multicultural place where 8 out of 10 are one race?

It's all relative isnt it? 80% of the city is one race... 720,000. how many more times is that the size of the next largest city in the state? if it's NOT multicultural to have 80% of Troy be white...how is it multicultural to have 80% of Detroit be black?

No it isn't all relative. By your logic, the entire country isn't "diverse" since 80% of the people who live here identify as "white". But that's a ridiculous assertion, especially when you realize that 20% of the U.S. population is millions of people.

Yes, Detroit is 80% black, but since Detroit is also very large, 20% of it is a large amount of people. On the other hand, 20% of Troy ain't all that much. And statistically, outside of a handful of other places like Dearborn, Southfield and maybe West Bloomfield, the suburbs only get whiter [[most much whiter than Detroit is black %age wise). The only suburbs that don't get whiter are usually rundown, deteriorating communities with Detroit-like stigmas.

[Retroit]

This is starting to remind me of a thread I started a year ago. I tried to give a list of how well the racial makeup of each city/suburb of Detroit compares to the racial makeup of the region, but some people couldn't get it through their skull that a 50% white/50% black city is not a realistic yardstick for integration. http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?t=943

[Goose]

cultural diversity and multi-culturalism has nothing to do with white... on the contrary, it has everything to do with non-white

the more non-white a community is, the more diverse and multi-cultural it is.. no matter if 80% of the population falls into one ethnic or racial category...

[checkraisej]

This article has been roundly and nearly unanimously denounced by everyone on this thread. It's author counts David Duke as a colleague, is a known racist and xenophobe, proven liar, admitted and unrepentant hater of all immigrants, and a "rabid nativist". So, it should come as no surprise that Retroit would "...agree with just about everything" he says. Congratulations Retroit, you have admitted to aligning yourself with such a scumbag racist hate monger as Frosty Wooldridge. With this in mind, you should absolutely not be surprised about this...

Considering the number of times I've been labeled a "racist" on this forum,

The original poster should also be ashamed for disseminating the rantings of such a racist.

[lincoln8740]

. It is the CULTURE that built this nation.

Your mileage may vary, but you ought to just say what you mean instead of engaging in random attacks online. If you think that Detroit's problem is race, then just say so and explain why. But you should have learned that race =/= culture in Sociology 101.

Way to dodge a simple question.

You stated in your previous fluff post that the problems Detroit faces today are due to socioeconomic and CULTURE

when i asked what CULTURE you were referring to, you instead, spouted off about some grandiose notion of your past and just dodged the question by answering a completely different one.

Good technique. I have seen people use that in depositions and on the stand. I also think I learned about it in law school.

But hey maybe I should have gotten a degree in English where I could be a librarian or a teacher, either way, I highly doubt someone has EVER worked in the private sector [[or ever will)--is that a CULTURAL thing too?

[Retroit]

Congratulations Retroit, you have admitted to aligning yourself with such a scumbag racist hate monger as Frosty Wooldridge. With this in mind, you should absolutely not be surprised about this...

Just because I agree with most of one article that a person has written doesn't mean I agree with everything they have ever written. I never even heard of the guy before. I just thought he made some valid points. The troubles brought on by establishment of the welfare state being one of them. As for the racist allegations, if I am not mistaken, Muslims and Mexicans are officially classified as white and not black, and the most potentially racist statement in Wooldridge's article is the quote of a man whom many Detroiters admire [[C.A.Y.).

My definition of a diverse, multi-cultural, integration society would be one where the people of different races, religions, ages, incomes, marital status, etc. reflect that of the greater population that you are comparing it to. So if the population of the United States, for example contains x% of y people, than a sub-grouping of the United States that has the same x% of y people would be as much diverse as is possible, because if they had more than x% of y people , that would mean that every other group is under-represented.

And lastly, can't we discuss matters dealing with race without trying to discredit people by calling them racist? Yeah, if I were to say, for example, "all black people are dumb", that is clearly racist. But if I were to say "many black people in Detroit suffer from a lack of good education", is that also racist?

[Bearinabox]

Just because I agree with most of one article that a person has written doesn't mean I agree with everything they have ever written. I never even heard of the guy before. I just thought he made some valid points. The troubles brought on by establishment of the welfare state being one of them. As for the racist allegations, if I am not mistaken, Muslims and Mexicans are officially classified as white and not black, and the most potentially racist statement in Wooldridge's article is the quote of a man whom many Detroiters admire [[C.A.Y.).

My definition of a diverse, multi-cultural, integration society would be one where the people of different races, religions, ages, incomes, marital status, etc. reflect that of the greater population that you are comparing it to. So if the population of the United States, for example contains x% of y people, than a sub-grouping of the United States that has the same x% of y people would be as much diverse as is possible, because if they had more than x% of y people , that would mean that every other group is under-represented.

Keep digging.

And lastly, can't we discuss matters dealing with race without trying to discredit people by calling them racist? Yeah, if I were to say, for example, "all black people are dumb", that is clearly racist. But if I were to say "many black people in Detroit suffer from a lack of good education", is that also racist?

You say a lot of racist things. I suppose it's arguable whether or not that makes you a racist, but, as checkraisej said, it's not surprising that you're frequently labeled as one.

[Retroit]

.
You say a lot of racist things.

I may say a lot of racial things, but I challenge you to find anything that I've said that is racist.

I suppose it's arguable whether or not that makes you a racist, but, as checkraisej said, it's not surprising that you're frequently labeled as one.

So it's okay to label someone even though there may be no justification for doing so? Isn't that exactly what racist are at fault for doing?

[Bearinabox]

I may say a lot of racial things, but I challenge you to find anything that I've said that is racist.

People point it out to you all the time. It never does any good.

[RickBeall]

I think it is the constant stream of immigrants that has kept Hamtramck afloat, over the years.

[daddeeo]

Using logic would make most of Frosty's outrageous statements melt away to bald face lies and racist remarks. All that moving van experience does not make one an urban expert. All it seems to have done is have the engine fumes deprive him of oxygen to the brain.
Blaming all Mexicans, Muslims or blacks for all of Detroit's problems is lazy and crazy thinking.

[checkraisej]

Just because I agree with most of one article that a person has written doesn't mean I agree with everything they have ever written.

But it doesn't help your case, either. That case being that you are not a racist. I get the feeling that you and ole Frosty have a lot in common. Check out some of his articles. I believe he's a regular contributor on David Duke's website. I find it hard to believe you haven't come across some of his stuff yet, though.

You really shouldn't be wondering why people try to label you a racist. Your total agreement with Forsty's article is just another point of evidence in that direction. I'm guessing you can often be overheard saying, "I'm not a racist, but...".

[vivadetroit]

I think it is the constant stream of immigrants that has kept Hamtramck afloat, over the years.

and I believe it was just named one of the most "international" city in Michigan w/ 27 or so different nationalities represented.

[iheartthed]

I think it is the constant stream of immigrants that has kept Hamtramck afloat, over the years.

Immigrants is what has kept all major cities afloat -- at least the ones that aren't nearly in a failed state. I don't know what example of success this idiot Frosty Wooldridge is looking at to say immigrants killed Detroit.

[Johnnie Sue Bridges]

Checkraisej,

I think you need to get a grip. Your comment of,

“The original poster should also be ashamed for disseminating the rantings of such a racist,�

to me, is absurd. First of all, I began my post with:

“I am not familiar with this writer, but I found his article on why Detroit is failing very interesting.�

Which made it very clear that I knew nothing about this man other than he stated,

“For 15 years, from the mid 1970s to 1990, I worked in Detroit, Michigan.�

To me, his view was one of a person that I assumed lived and worked in Detroit, and that made me interested in his opinion—no matter what it was. I am interested in what everyone has to say. I have paid attention to this thread, and I hear what folks are saying. Seems to me, some folks want to scream racism about everything, and some folks like to knock people around without really listening to them. I didn’t find racism existed in any of the comments made about the article, but it was implied.

I think posting the article brought about a good discussion. However, it is too bad some folks have to get irate if someone has an opinion different from theirs.

[Bearinabox]

Which made it very clear that I knew nothing about this man other than he stated,

“For 15 years, from the mid 1970s to 1990, I worked in Detroit, Michigan.�

I'd never heard of the guy either. The issue isn't that that you posted something written by a racist, it's that the article itself is nothing but seething, irrational bigotry from start to finish. If you think the sentiments expressed in the article are worthy of our attention to the point that you're willing to actively propagate them, you should be willing to accept the...problematic implications of that.

To me, his view was one of a person that I assumed lived and worked in Detroit, and that made me interested in his opinion—no matter what it was. I am interested in what everyone has to say.

Okay, but you didn't stop at being interested. You actively spread his ideas around. You haven't posted every article that has ever been written about Detroit by someone who has lived and worked here, but you went out of your way to post this one. There are many more accurate and insightful takes about why Detroit is where it is; you could have posted any of them and started a far more stimulating discussion than this one. Most of the interesting posts on this thread are interesting in spite of the article, not because of it.

I have paid attention to this thread, and I hear what folks are saying. Seems to me, some folks want to scream racism about everything, and some folks like to knock people around without really listening to them.

Did you read the article before you posted it? The guy's entire thesis is that Detroit was perfectly fine until all those black and brown people came and wrecked it. People aren't just screaming "racism" to exercise their vocal cords. Give me a fucking break.

I think posting the article brought about a good discussion. However, it is too bad some folks have to get irate if someone has an opinion different from theirs.

There are legitimate differences of opinion, and then there is bigoted crap that is simply not worthy of discussion. Please learn the difference before foisting another "interesting" article on us.

[Retroit]

At the risk of seeming vain for speaking up for my own defense, but in order to promote future amicable discussions, I'd like to delineate what I agree with, what I don't agree with, [and the reasons why].

THE TRAGEDY OF DETROIT
This is a powerful message about the failure of the Great Society.

How in the world do we get out of this mess? This is a perfect example of how good intentions without good foresight can produce an absolute nightmare. Never underestimate the downside of human nature. The author of the following piece is a U.S. journalist who writes for seventeen national and two international magazines.

THE TRAGEDY OF DETROIT: HOW IMMIGRATION AND MULTICULTURALISM DESTROYED IT
By Frosty Wooldridge

For 15 years, from the mid 1970s to 1990, I worked in Detroit , Michigan. I watched it descend into the abyss of crime, debauchery, gun play, drugs, school truancy, car-jacking, gangs and human depravity. I watched entire city blocks burned out. I watched graffiti explode on buildings, cars, trucks, buses and school yards. Trash was everywhere! Detroiters walked through it, tossed more into it and just ignored it.

Tens of thousands and then, hundreds of thousands today exist on federal welfare, free housing and food stamps! With Aid to
Dependent Children, minority women birthed eight to 10 and, in one case, one woman birthed 24 kids as reported by the Detroit Free Press-all on American taxpayer dollars. A new child meant a new car payment, new TV and whatever mom wanted. I saw Lyndon Baines Johnson's "Great Society" flourish in Detroit. If you give money for doing nothing, you will get more hands out to take money for doing nothing.

Mayor Coleman Young, perhaps the most corrupt mayor in America, outside of Richard Daley in Chicago, rode Detroit down to its knees. He set the benchmark for cronyism, incompetence and arrogance. As a black man, he said, "I am the MFIC." The IC meant 'in charge'. You can figure out the rest. Detroit became a majority black city with 67 percent
African-Americans.

As a United Van Lines truck driver for my summer job from teaching math and science, I loaded hundreds of American families into my van for a new life in another city or state. Detroit plummeted from 1.8 million citizens to 912,000 today. At the same time, legal and illegal immigrants converged on the city, so much so, that Muslims number over 300,000. Mexicans number 400,000 throughout Michigan, but most work in Detroit .

As the whites moved out, the Muslims moved in. [Not entirely true, as many non-Muslims also moved in.] As the crimes became more violent, the whites fled. Finally, unlawful Mexicans moved in at a torrid pace. [Exaggeration] Detroit suffers so much shoplifting that grocery stores no longer operate in many inner city locations.

You could cut the racial tension in the air with a knife! Detroit may be one our best [[extreme) examples of multiculturalism: pure dislike and total separation from America!
Today, you hear Muslim calls to worship over the city like a new American Baghdad [Gross exaggeration] with hundreds of Islamic mosques in Michigan, paid for by Saudi Arabia oil money. [Not verified, but I'm doubtful] High school flunk out rates reached 76 percent last June according to NBC's Brian Williams. Classrooms resemble more foreign countries than America. English? Few speak it! The city features a 50 percent illiteracy rate and growing. Unemployment hit 28.9 percent in 2009 as the auto industry vacated the city.
In Time Magazine October 4, 2009, "The Tragedy of Detroit: How a great city fell and how it can rise again," I choked on the writer's description of what happened.

"If Detroit had been savaged by a hurricane and submerged by a ravenous flood, we'd know a lot more about it," said Daniel Okrent. "If drought and carelessness had spread brush fires across the city, we'd see it on the evening news every night. Earthquake, tornadoes, you name it - if natural disaster had devastated the city that was once the living proof of American prosperity, the rest of the country might take notice.

But Detroit, once our fourth largest city, now 11th and slipping rapidly, has had no such luck. Its disaster has long been a slow unwinding that seemed to remove it from the rest of the country. Even the death rattle that in the past year emanated from its signature industry brought more attention to the auto executives than to the people of the city, who had for so long been victimized by their dreadful decision-making."

As Coleman Young's corruption brought the city to its knees, no amount of federal dollars could save the incredible payoffs, kick backs and illegality permeating his administration. I witnessed the city's death from the seat of my 18-wheeler tractor trailer because I moved people out of every sector of decaying Detroit .

"By any quantifiable standard, the city is on life support. Detroit 's treasury is $300 million short of the funds needed to provide the barest municipal services," Okrent said. "The school system, which six years ago was compelled by the teachers' union to reject a philanthropist's offer of $200 million to build 15 small, independent charter high schools, is in receivership. The murder rate is soaring, and 7 out of 10 remain unsolved. Three years after Katrina devastated New Orleans, unemployment in that city hit a peak of 11%. In Detroit, the unemployment rate is 28.9% That's worth spelling out: twenty-eight point nine percent."

At the end of Okrent's report, and he will write a dozen more about Detroit, he said, "That's because the story of Detroit is not simply one of a great city's collapse. It's also about the erosion of the industries that helped build the country we know today. The ultimate fate of Detroit will reveal much about the character of America in the 21st century. If what was once the most prosperous manufacturing city in the nation has been brought to its knees, what does that say about our recent past? And if it can't find a way to get up, what does that say about our future?"

As you read in my book review of Chris Steiner's book, $20 Per Gallon, the auto industry won't come back [[to Detroit). Immigration will keep pouring more and more uneducated third world immigrants from the Middle East into Detroit -thus creating a beachhead for Islamic hegemony in America. [Not likely, but possible] If the 50 percent illiteracy continues, we will see more homegrown terrorists spawned out of the Muslim ghettos of Detroit. [Not necessarily.]Illiteracy plus Islam equals walking human bombs. You have already seen it in Madrid, Spain; London, England and Paris, France with train bombings, subway bombings and riots. [I don't think that most of the terrorists are illiterate. In fact, many of them were quite literate. But I'm also not an advocate of illiteracy.] As their numbers grow, so will their power to enact their barbaric Sharia Law that negates republican forms of government, first amendment rights and subjugates women to the lowest rungs on the human ladder. We will see more honor killings by upset husbands, fathers and brothers that demand subjugation by their daughters, sisters and wives. Muslims prefer to use beheadings of women to scare the hell out of any other members of their sect from straying. [Not necessarily. I think most Muslims in the United States have a more enlightened understanding of Islam. But there is a certain small percent of hard-liners, so there is a possibility that incidents of abuse against women may increase.]

Multiculturalism: what a perfect method to kill our language, culture, country and way of life. [If by "multi-culturalism", he means accepting the bad traits of a culture as opposed to accepting just the good, then I agree.]

I PRAY EVERYONE THAT READS THIS REALIZES THAT IF WE DON'T ALL STAND UP AND SCREAM AT WASHINGTON AND OUR CITY LEADERS THIS IS WHAT AWAITS AMERICA . IF YOU FOLLOW THE NEWS AT ALL YOU KNOW THIS HAS HAPPENED IN ENGLAND AND FRANCE AND SPAIN .. IF YOU THINK THIS IS JUST A BUNCH OF HOOEY AND YOU FEEL NO DUTY TO FIGHT FOR THIS COUNTRY, THEN I'M SORRY, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT WILL TAKE FOR YOU TO STAND AND FIGHT.

A few additional points. As I said initially, I think he has exaggerated the threat from Muslims. He has identified some serious problems in Detroit, but linking them solely to Muslims is not accurate. It may be true that as the number of Muslims increase, the number of Muslim terrorists may increase, but that doesn't explain why Detroit is currently in the bad condition that it is in.