Police accidentally shoot 7 year old girl in house search.

Fidel · May-17-10, 10:31 AM

Worthy asks State Police to probe shooting death of girl, 7 http://bit.ly/9VH3R2
How long can it be till the Feds roll in?

"Current and former Detroit officers said today they wonder why such force was used, especially with children in the house. One former homicide detective said the usual tactic is to assign officers to watch the house and arrest a suspect in a less aggressive manner, such as when that person leaves the home."

**Meddle** · May-17-10, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Novine

Is that SOP for the DPD when trying to secure the arrest of wanted murderers?

It isn't as uncommon as you might think, but if nothing goes wrong, you don't hear about it. What is uncommon is that Detroit's SRT is full time. They don't do any other duties like routine patrol. When they're not doing raids, they're training for raids. I've never liked that. It creates a sense of elitism that has no place behind the badge.

In most places SRT, SWAT or Tac Team members perform normal duties like any other officer unless the team is activated for a critical situation.

**Meddle** · May-17-10, 10:39 AM

And no, I don't think it had anything to do with the film crew's presence. If you've ever watched the show, they focus on the mechanics of the investigation and interviews; the meat and potatoes as it were. There is very little 'action', although there is some. I'm sure the film crew was as surprised as anyone else at the outcome.

**Goose** · May-17-10, 10:47 AM

what is the reasoning and justification behind using an all out assault type entry at midnight to capture a suspect

its dark, for one, which can lead to confusion and chaos, its Detroit, with dangers lurking anywhere, just cause someone yells police in the middle of the night as they break down your door, the first reaction of the occupants may not be to hit the deck, one day someones gonna unload a shotgun unknowingly...

unless the suspect has hostages or is endangering the public safety by just being in the house, why not wait til morning and grab the guy when he leaves the house, at minimal, they could observe who's coming and going into the house, know there are kids, know what level he might be on, know who he's associating with in the house...

this was completly unnecessary....

**Meddle** · May-17-10, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Goose

its dark, for one, which can lead to confusion and chaos, its Detroit, with dangers lurking anywhere, just cause someone yells police in the middle of the night as they break down your door, the first reaction of the occupants may not be to hit the deck, one day someones gonna unload a shotgun unknowingly....

What complicates this is that a few years back there was a series of home invasions by police imposters decked out in full raid gear with false IDs. I forget how many they did or how long it lasted, but it gives people cause to wonder just who really IS bursting in.

And this isn't the first incident of accidental gunfire injury either. I forget the details, but there have been a couple of high profile cases involving one officer being hit by another officer's fire.

**Gannon** · May-17-10, 11:03 AM

Talking about this last night, a friend told me that these types of raids are incredibly common throughout the US, as often as every 20 minutes on average?! He went on to comment on the level of incarceration per capita and how much higher the US is than ANY other country.

I have no proof of either, but am curious to know if he was right.

First thing I found in my search was what must've been a spoof on YouTube of a SWAT team making multiple mistakes due their dispatch screwing up addresses. I certainly HOPE it was a spoof...but it again begs the question,

Are we doing GOOD or NOT, overall, with these forms of dark military-style raids? From the very first one I ever witnessed, going into the old Seville Hotel [[RIP that hellhole of Detroit's version of New Jack City), they have totally unsettled me.

We do not need unidentified police officers operating with impunity...I agree with Meddle about this unit's exclusivity being a problem. By unidentified, I specifically mean their badge numbers are not as prominently displayed at that huge white POLICE on their fronts and backs.

IF there is no accountability, their is a LIKELIHOOD of abuse in the future...that, unfortunately, stems from our base human nature.

We do not need anonymity in our officer ranks...

Sincerely,
John

**Gannon** · May-17-10, 11:04 AM

[[outside the plainclothes and undercover operations...of course!)

**R8RBOB** · May-17-10, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Goose

what is the reasoning and justification behind using an all out assault type entry at midnight to capture a suspect

its dark, for one, which can lead to confusion and chaos, its Detroit, with dangers lurking anywhere, just cause someone yells police in the middle of the night as they break down your door, the first reaction of the occupants may not be to hit the deck, one day someones gonna unload a shotgun unknowingly...

unless the suspect has hostages or is endangering the public safety by just being in the house, why not wait til morning and grab the guy when he leaves the house, at minimal, they could observe who's coming and going into the house, know there are kids, know what level he might be on, know who he's associating with in the house...

this was completly unnecessary....

The tragedy was that a young child was killed by accident but we must remember that the suspect killed a 17 year old in cold blood, in broad daylight. The police had to move because they were spotted on the block so people in the neighborhood knew the hook was staking out the house. If they waited till morning and the murderer gave the police the slip everyone would question why the police would wait to appenhend the criminal when they had his location.

There is no gray here. It is a black or white situation that resulted in the lost of a precious 7 year old.

**REL** · May-17-10, 11:19 AM

Sweet jeez, people. I do not understand why we are all jumping to conclusions and taking tidbits from half-done news stories [[y'all know how accurate the news is) when the details aren't figured out yet. Wait until the investigation is done before getting all bent out of shape. Eventually answers will come. Just be patient and get the whole [[or most of the) story first before judging the situation.

Could have been the officer's fault. Or the grandmother's. Or the weapon's. Or the fugitive who hid in the upstairs flat. Or the department's policies. Or some circumstance we don't even know about yet. No one's going to know until all of the facts come out.

In the meantime, keep this girl in your prayers. No matter what happened with the adults around her, she didn't deserve her fate. It gives me shivers to picture a little girl in front of a Disney Princesses backdrop with blood running down her neck, life draining out of her body. Show a little respect and let the truth come out.

**Novine** · May-17-10, 11:22 AM

Radley Balko covers these kinds of situations, mostly related to drug-war busts gone bad. He had a post on the shooting in Detroit.

http://www.theagitator.com/2010/05/1...n-police-raid/

The numbers that were cited have been getting a lot of air do to this drug raid gone bad on that made it to YouTube.

http://reason.com/archives/2010/05/1...aid-goes-viral

This case in Detroit sounds a lot like what happened in Lima, Ohio a couple years back.

http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/0...tarika-wilson/

**English** · May-17-10, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by REL

In the meantime, keep this girl in your prayers. No matter what happened with the adults around her, she didn't deserve her fate. It gives me shivers to picture a little girl in front of a Disney Princesses backdrop with blood running down her neck, life draining out of her body. Show a little respect and let the truth come out.

Again, you've hit the nail squarely on the head before I could get back to this thread. I feel that this little girl's death is being used by people who have agendas to always defend the police or always tear them down. There's not a lot of common sense, just raw emotion in that debate... and it solves nothing.

I don't care if her family were saints or if they were all Jack the Ripper without souls. A seven year old is DEAD. Any time a child is killed, it is a tragedy. Any time we hear of it, the ONLY appropriate response is grief.

**usa1** · May-17-10, 11:44 AM

I originally heard that the little girl was sleeping on the front porch? Detroit has no respect for the law and that is the BIG problem. Why didn't this 46 y r old woman turn in the murderer in the first place - he was a wanted man. Most Detroiters appear to be anti police so how can they expect the city to become a safe place to live or work?? The people better wake up and put the blame on the right person.

**English** · May-17-10, 11:51 AM

^ This post is a case in point. Why no expressions of grief that a SEVEN year old is dead? Only blaming and finger-pointing. It's not even 48 hours since the child died and already people have their opinions and agendas.

Have we forgotten how to mourn?

**Islandman** · May-17-10, 11:59 AM

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...s-are-stilled/
http://reason.com/archives/2010/02/1...ngs-under-fire

The timeline in this incident is going to be very important. It sounds so far that this occurred right suring entry and not a minute plus later.

You are literally deaf and blind. It could easily cause you to reach for and object or person to steady yourself. This grappling could be misconstrued as just that. I find it far fetched that a 46 year old woman would have the capacity of "wrestling" with a law enforcement officer after being subjected to a flashbang. Sorry.

It is up to the person/s using such a device to be aware of these different reactions to this device, and to go in accordingly. Not everyone falls to the floor adter being hit with one of these. Everyone reacts differently.

I think the cops showed extremly bad judgment on this one, as well as poor weapon safety.

**R8RBOB** · May-17-10, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by usa1

I originally heard that the little girl was sleeping on the front porch? Detroit has no respect for the law and that is the BIG problem. Why didn't this 46 y r old woman turn in the murderer in the first place - he was a wanted man. Most Detroiters appear to be anti police so how can they expect the city to become a safe place to live or work?? The people better wake up and put the blame on the right person.

Sleeping on the front porch! A seven year-old!! C'mon use your common sense.

As for your comment about the grandmother not turning in the murderer well what if the grandmother didn't know he murderer a 17 year old in cold blood. It is not like he went through the house and announced that he murdered a boy because of words.

**Detwa** · May-17-10, 12:02 PM

In all fairness, people are assuming that the family KNEW the relative was a murder suspect. You don't always know, sometimes people just come home and act like nothing has happened, either feeling that they got away with it, or just planning to move on later. I know from experience, many years ago my brother was wanted for murder. We knew there had been a murder in the city, but the police didn't announce who they were looking for. My brother came to visit, hung out like nothing was up, and then left. Hours later, the police are surrounding MY house and flashing lights in the windows looking for him, came in searching all over the house. We were shocked, we had no idea. Luckily for us, he wasn't there, but had they been just a little early, people would have thought we were helping him hide. But the fact is, if my grandmother had known he was involved, she would have kept him there and called the cops on him herself.

**SWMAP** · May-17-10, 12:02 PM

This from wikipedia on the stun grenades:
"However, while the M84 is generally incapable of igniting paper or cloth, it can still ignite extremely flammable liquids or vapors [[such as concentrated gasoline or ether fumes) in the immediate area of the grenade.[4]"

I am just suspicious of the dramatic claims being made by one side: her body burned, etc. I remember when the family of the deaf man who was killed by a DPD officer claimed that he was advancing on the officer with only a rake and the officer should have known how little harm was involved. but the real story is that the man was advancing with a poised thatching rake - a very heavy tool capable of cleaving a head in two. That officer tried to return to work but the emotional after-affects of the incident and harrassment by Ron Scott's groupies [[referring to the officer as KraPIGski [[Krapinski) made his employment unbearable.

There is a great deal of tragedy here, no doubt.

**usa1** · May-17-10, 12:04 PM

I do have common sense and that is why I would question was she sleeping on the porch? I agree it would be insane for a child to be sleeping in the cold outside but you never know.

**R8RBOB** · May-17-10, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by usa1

I do have common sense and that is why I would question was she sleeping on the porch? I agree it would be insane for a child to be sleeping in the cold outside but you never know.

My bad, I took the statement out of context. Now, I have to question why the girl's father didn't have his child sleeping in his bed and he took the couch.

**hhockey** · May-17-10, 01:02 PM

This was a tragic accident and we must mourn the child. Let's not forget that the officer involved has to live with this accident. He surly did not deliberately shoot this child. He will never forget this night for the rest of his life. We can all arm chair quarterback but until the investigation is complete we should not jump to some ridiculus conclusions.

**GPCharles** · May-17-10, 01:22 PM

Not to worry - SUPER FIEGER is on the case.

Let the histrionics begin [[or continue)!

**LeannaM** · May-17-10, 01:58 PM

It's a terrible thing that happened. I hope that justice is done.

**kraig** · May-17-10, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by hhockey

This was a tragic accident and we must mourn the child. Let's not forget that the officer involved has to live with this accident. He surly did not deliberately shoot this child. He will never forget this night for the rest of his life. We can all arm chair quarterback but until the investigation is complete we should not jump to some ridiculus conclusions.

I'm sure that this is going to haunt the officers involved for a very long time.

Also, Fieger is saying that the bullet that killed the little girl came from outside the house.

**jcole** · May-17-10, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by kraig

I'm sure that this is going to haunt the officers involved for a very long time.

Also, Fieger is saying that the bullet that killed the little girl came from outside the house.

And how would Fieger know that already? I know he purports to have seen a video, but you need a little more that that to see exactly where a bullet enters a wall, how it bounces around and where it ends up.

**EASTSIDE CAT 67-83** · May-17-10, 03:06 PM

Play by the rules and bad things don't happen, don't play by the rule's and subject a child to risk, bad things will happen. Grandma didn't play by the rules, she subjected this poor child to undue risk and the "Good Guy" the cop who was doing his job has to live with this horrible accident for the rest of his life. If the city and a gaggle of lawyers doesn't destroy him that memory surly will!