What light rail will do for Detroit

[casscorridor]

Oakland Co. and the suburbs in general need rail transit to survive. Detroit needs rail transit to survive. But it seems that the Oakland disagrees with this and therefore isn't interested in cooperating with the rest of the region. With the full support of all the Metro Detroit counties and the State of Michigan we could build a state-of-the-art transit system akin to Vancouver or DC. Why? Because it would propel us into the future.

Michigan can not exist without a major city, and a major city can't exist without a mass transit system. We can and should share the benefits of rail with the suburbs. The city should frame it like this when working out a compromise. If there are lines extending into the burbs, the stations will see intense development. Maybe "urban centers" will form around the stations.

For example, there could be a spur from the Woodward line, along McNichols, past UDM and Marygrove college up the Lodge and connecting to Southfield's three business districts -- Northland, Civic Center and the Northwestern Hwy area-- remake and existing suburban commercial area into an urban one.

This is what has to happen for Oakland county to adapt. Young people are fleeing the state rapidly. And the Downtown-Midtown area is edging very close to entering into a phase of rapid growth. The publicized goal is 15,000 new residents by 2015, which will be possible through incentive packages from WSU, DMC and HFH for their employees if they move to the area. In addition, the M1 rail will be strictly in this area, and people are going to be very excited to ride it and one come to their community. Maybe then we can have some bolder proposals.

Once Downtown-Midtown is one solid, vibrant urban area, it will only spread further... the idea of a critical mass. It took over 10 years to get to this point, but it will make the next 10 years possible. The area will start to look more and more attractive. It will help other neighborhoods too, which will become more desirable because the proximity to Downtown-Midtown.

I think the burbs can also improve and adapt, but they will have a hard road ahead if they remain the same. I think the whole region needs to "shrink" its geographic footprint in order to survive. Build in existing areas, near new rail transit stops. Centers of activity will form. Some of these activity centers already exist, but aren't connected well to transit, such as Southfield. So if Oakland doesn't want Southfield [[and Troy and Auburn Hills and Farmington Hills) to look like Detroit circa 1984, they should invest in the future which is mass transit. We can all share the benefits.

[3rdDegreeBurns]

I agree. I'm just saying that don't expect a regional buy in for a people mover that will only benefit a small section of Detroit.

Like Prof. Scott I think the only reason for the M1 project is the absence of regional buy-in for improved transit. However, if M1 is built, I think it will be very popular, have an impact on development and OC residents in Ferndale, Royal Oak, Berkley and even Birmingham will DEMAND that it be extended.

How can you make that statement? M1 neither goes to the Airport nor to Cobo Hall where just about every large event is held and where every out of town guest needs to get to. It doesn't change a thing.

Nobody knows where the downtown terminus of M1 will be. I wouldn't be suprised if they end up bringing it down Washington Blvd. and ending at Cobo. If they bring it down Woodward to Jefferson then we are only talking about three block walk. Either way it will connect to the people mover which does stop in cobo. It will also link to the new Amtrack station in New Center which theoretically will one day have commuter rail service to the airport. Having the rail downtown makes that potential service much more attractive.

[Russix]

suburban decline - Oakland county's denial and opportunity
...

How about a DTOGS fundraiser? With DDOT’s 50 million, 25 million in a Tiger grant, and by fundraising the rest from Detroit and suburban resident we'd have our local match for a DTOGS plan up to 8-mile.Hell, count me in for a grand so I can stamp "Russix" into the pavement at the Woodward/Warren station.

[professorscott]

Nobody knows where the downtown terminus of M1 will be. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up bringing it down Washington Blvd. and ending at Cobo.

I wouldn't be surprised if that happens either

[bailey]

Nobody knows where the downtown terminus of M1 will be. I wouldn't be suprised if they end up bringing it down Washington Blvd. and ending at Cobo. If they bring it down Woodward to Jefferson then we are only talking about three block walk. Either way it will connect to the people mover which does stop in cobo. It will also link to the new Amtrack station in New Center which theoretically will one day have commuter rail service to the airport. Having the rail downtown makes that potential service much more attractive.

Well, again, just pointing out the issue that M1 is supposed to be shovels in the ground in a couple of months [[actually weren't we supposed to already be riding it?) and we have no idea where the thing will begin, end, where stops will be, or even what it will look like. And correct me if I'm wrong, but arent most CBD hotels within walking distance or people mover linked to Cobo anyway? Point being.. Unless they are staying in a few very specific places, the presence of M1 is an afterthought.

With regard to the AA-Airport-Detroit train...again with the slapped together crap. Traveler arrives at metro, collects luggage, gets on what is currently proposed to be a shuttle bus, that takes him up over I94 where he waits for a train [[that is currently planned to run 4 times a day if IIRC) then takes train to new center where...if he's going north, he gets on another series of busses to get to anywhere else.. if going south, he gets on M1. Then he likely has to get on people mover to get over to his hotel or hoof it. So, what? 4 mode changes and who knows how long in travel time for what would have been a 20 minute drive in a rental car and on-site parking at the hotel ...all likely paid for by his employer? The other issue is, of course, that now that he's stranded downtown, what happens to the meetings or appointments that are not on a three mile stretch of Woodward?

Lets stop pretending M1 is going to really be noticed by anyone other than a few die hard transit people and suburbanites using it as a parking shuttle on game day. I guess the only real hope is that enough suburbanites use it and like it that they demand it comes out further so they don't have to drive so far to get on it. But that means they'll have to over come the majority of the rest that will be against it because they think it will just serve to let black people get out of detroit easier.

[dtowncitylover]

I don't see the need for a downtown terminus. If it ends at Comerica/Fox Theatre, it's a 5 minute walk to the People Mover or a 20 minute walk to the farthest downtown points [[ie, Cobo/JLA or the Riverwalk, all of which are accessible by the PM anyways)

For the MILLIONTH time, this is the first phase of a regional transportation authority for Metro Detroit that will be voted by the House soon [[so call your state rep!). This is the first step in a Woodward Line towards 8 Mile, 11 Mile God-willing, better bus services for SMART and DDOT, the building of B and/or LRT lines down Gratiot, Grand River, and Michigan, and the FUTURE of our region.

As for the commuter rail line, SEMCOG took too much time with research and development, a reason why Momma Kilpatrick didn't support it any more. That doesn't sound "slapped together" to me.

[bailey]

I don't see the need for a downtown terminus. If it ends at Comerica/Fox Theatre, it's a 5 minute walk to the People Mover or a 20 minute walk to the farthest downtown points [[ie, Cobo/JLA or the Riverwalk, all of which are accessible by the PM anyways)

For the MILLIONTH time, this is the first phase of a regional transportation authority for Metro Detroit that will be voted by the House soon [[so call your state rep!). This is the first step in a Woodward Line towards 8 Mile, 11 Mile God-willing, better bus services for SMART and DDOT, the building of B and/or LRT lines down Gratiot, Grand River, and Michigan, and the FUTURE of our region.

As for the commuter rail line, SEMCOG took too much time with research and development, a reason why Momma Kilpatrick didn't support it any more. That doesn't sound "slapped together" to me.

and for the two millionth time, none of what you just said is to be completed until 2035. and that is pathetic.

But you're right, before anything happens the regional authority needs to be enacted. think that is going to happen in a Cox or Hoekstra administration?

[dtowncitylover]

and for the two millionth time, none of what you just said is to be completed until 2035. and that is pathetic.

But you're right, before anything happens the regional authority needs to be enacted. think that is going to happen in a Cox or Hoekstra administration?

You never know, cause Miliken was the one who got the Amtrak line from Port Huron to Chicago.

And sorry, yes Rome wasn't built in a day, neither was the New York subway nor the London Underground. We live in a disharmonic region, it will take time. Sorry that this can't happen by New Years Day. Your excuses are just pathetic and irrelevent.

[bailey]

You never know, cause Miliken was the one who got the Amtrak line from Port Huron to Chicago.

And sorry, yes Rome wasn't built in a day, neither was the New York subway nor the London Underground. We live in a disharmonic region, it will take time. Sorry that this can't happen by New Years Day. Your excuses are just pathetic and irrelevent.

I'm not making excuses. everyone running the thing is... oh we need to study AA to Detroit rail another three years....oh big bad L Brooks wont let us run in Oakland, county... Oh we can't get a regional authority passed... we can't make a regional plan because we can only do baby steps.

Dallas built 20 miles of track in 6 years in the 1990s. They have well over 40 now. prior to that there was no commuter rail in all of Texas. Are you REALLY saying the BEST Michigan can do is 3 miles in 10 years of talking about it....and maybe 12 miles in 25 years? really? I mean speaking of pathetic and [[soon to be) irrelevant...

[Hermod]

I'm not making excuses. everyone running the thing is... oh we need to study AA to Detroit rail another three years....oh big bad L Brooks wont let us run in Oakland, county... Oh we can't get a regional authority passed... we can't make a regional plan because we can only do baby steps.

Dallas built 20 miles of track in 6 years in the 1990s. They have well over 40 now. prior to that there was no commuter rail in all of Texas. Are you REALLY saying the BEST Michigan can do is 3 miles in 10 years of talking about it....and maybe 12 miles in 25 years? really? I mean speaking of pathetic and [[soon to be) irrelevant...

Good article on the Phoenix-Tempe-Flagstaff commuter rail line in this month's "Progressive Railroading" magazine.

Also a good article on how government entities that want to run passenger service over freight rail lines need to approach the railroads and work out agreements and what the freight railroads want the agreements to contain..

[dtowncitylover]

Dallas built 20 miles of track in 6 years in the 1990s. They have well over 40 now. prior to that there was no commuter rail in all of Texas. Are you REALLY saying the BEST Michigan can do is 3 miles in 10 years of talking about it....and maybe 12 miles in 25 years? really? I mean speaking of pathetic and [[soon to be) irrelevant...

Yes I am saying that. Michigan is not the thriving state Texas was and still is. They had/ve the money to do these kinds of projects. The Woodward Line is supposed to be completed by 2015 and a possible extension to Ponitac by 2020. So within 5 years. But that will be pushed to 25 years if we don't get a RTA. Also by 2020, we are supposed to have lines down Gratiot, toward 9 Mile, and Michigan to the Airport with commuter rail to Ann Arbor, Pontiac [[if no light rail), and Port Huron.

BUT NONE OF THIS WILL HAPPEN BY 2020 WITHOUT A REGIONAL TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY!

[professorscott]

Other cities have got this sort of thing done because they had the political will to make infrastructure changes, and we simply do not. We spend our transportation money to widen highways; it's not that we don't have money, it's how we choose to spend it.

[FerndaleDamon]

If this whole regional transit idea was implemented, I'm sure people would use it. For some reason, Detroit has always had a hard time "getting things done." This isn't a recent phenomenon. I've talked to older people who've been around and they said it's always been like pulling teeth to get projects done, with everything politicized, etc. This really does seem to be a regional thing, as other areas of the country "make it work." Why is that? In the meantime, the people/citizens are the ones who go without & get screwed. Just build the goddamned thing already, will 'ya!

[FerndaleDamon]

Just stick with the original plan to build M-1 from the river up to the Boulevard. See how the ridership goes. If the demand is there, then expand further up. If not, then don't. It really shouldn't be this difficult. Funding is supposed to be mostly private anyway, isn't it? If it isn't built, we'll always wonder "what if?". We've already had too many " what iffs" around here.

[Russix]

Just stick with the original plan to build M-1 from the river up to the Boulevard. See how the ridership goes. If the demand is there, then expand further up. If not, then don't. It really shouldn't be this difficult. Funding is supposed to be mostly private anyway, isn't it? If it isn't built, we'll always wonder "what if?". We've already had too many " what iffs" around here.

Yes I'm sure the ridership with something that competes with half a bus route will be astounding compared to something that competes with a freeway.

[professorscott]

Russix, what do you propose that we do, given the leadership we have? Wishing for new leadership is not a short-term solution; we have what we have. Detroit can't build the DTOGS line unless M1 Rail is built; that is the only conceivable source of most of the required matching funds. The projectors of M1 Rail won't just give the City money and hope Detroit does what it said it would do. Nobody else is doing anything whatever, nor are they willing to.

So what do you propose, given who we have masquerading as leaders? Can anything bigger than M1 Rail get done at all? Do we build M1 Rail and hope people like it and we can build from there, or do we do nothing like we've been doing for eighty years, and hope things get better by magic?

[Russix]

Professorscott,
We should work with a non-profit transit advocacy group to fundraise to create a grant that’s available to M1-Rail Inc on the condition that they change their initial phase design to what was previously called the “DTOGS Woodward Common Segment”[[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2wh3rXaMLM). Which was basically a short spur line that was planned to be built up to Grand Blvd in the event that Gratiot or Michigan Ave. was chosen first over Woodward. If we raised enough and emphasized that it can only be used to fund a DTOGS styled plan we could maybe encourage the private backers of M1-Rail Inc. that "Hey look, these people really don't like our idea, we should do the other way!" We could also encourage some of the backers of M1-Rail Inc to sanction that their contributing funds should only be used in this manner as well. We don’t have the support of our politicians so it’s up to us to put our money where our mouths are. We also have a lot of time too!

[stasu1213]

Had groundbreaking began for the light rail on Woodward? I don't see any progress. I still say that the plans for a light rail up Woodward from Hart Plaza to the New Center area had been put on the back burner. We are going back and forth on here while the politicians downtown continues to kick this idea back and forth until nothing will be develope. The project was to had started this year. SAD TO SAY. THIS IS A CAR TOWN AND NOTHING ELSE. GET SOME LEADERS WHO ARE SERIOUS ABOUT THIS PROJECT AND NOT LEADERS WHO ARE BEING PAID TO SABATOGE THE IDEA OF LIGHT RAIL

[maxx]

Other cities have got this sort of thing done because they had the political will to make infrastructure changes, and we simply do not. We spend our transportation money to widen highways; it's not that we don't have money, it's how we choose to spend it.

It couldn't have anything to do with the auto industry here, could it? lol

[esp1986]

It couldn't have anything to do with the auto industry here, could it? lol

I have heard that the big 3, in some capacity, are already getting in their say in Lansing. It will be interesting to see what ends up happening.

Nearly every business leader in the area, outside of the auto manufacturers, is on board. I continue to find it very sad that the auto industry has to be so relient on one market that they go to these lengths. The fact that you have to have a car to get ANYWHERE in this area is not changing, but we are trying to make it easier and safer by taking a few cars off the road. People are still going to have cars in this area for many years to come.

[iheartthed]

For some reason, Detroit has always had a hard time "getting things done." This isn't a recent phenomenon. I've talked to older people who've been around and they said it's always been like pulling teeth to get projects done, with everything politicized, etc.

I agree, it does seem to be a Detroit area thing [[or a Michigan thing). Quick to demolish, slow to build. I don't know if it's because of the political structure, or because political interests are just a little too aligned to business interests. Or because Detroit [[and Michigan) is too reliant on a single industry.

But in my time living away from Michigan, I notice that politicians here in the NY area take great pains to separate business interests from civic interests. It's not that "what's good for GM is good for America" mentality. The NY Attorney General actively regulates Wall Street despite Wall Street being the biggest taxpayer to the state.

[FerndaleDamon]

My frustration with this topic is not aimed at you guys, but rather with the people near the top, who ultimately make all these [[in)decisions. All this regional polarization that exists has, and still continues to kill us. A 3 mile long light rail line to start. Mostly privately funded. Too much to ask? The alternative is what we've got now- nothing. More cars? Traffic jams on outdated freeways that can't handle the volume? Even Los Angeles, once a city until about 10 yrs. ago that lived by a myriad of expressways, has "somewhat" of a rapid transit system. Our "leaders" need to think more progressively & get this done.

[detmsp]

Let the conspiracy theories go. I really don't think the big 3 give a shit about a 4 mile street car system.

[dtowncitylover]

Had groundbreaking began for the light rail on Woodward? I don't see any progress. I still say that the plans for a light rail up Woodward from Hart Plaza to the New Center area had been put on the back burner. We are going back and forth on here while the politicians downtown continues to kick this idea back and forth until nothing will be develope. The project was to had started this year. SAD TO SAY. THIS IS A CAR TOWN AND NOTHING ELSE. GET SOME LEADERS WHO ARE SERIOUS ABOUT THIS PROJECT AND NOT LEADERS WHO ARE BEING PAID TO SABATOGE THE IDEA OF LIGHT RAIL

Actually the reconstruction of Woodward between the Boulevard and HP is being done with light rail in mind. So, maybe the real construction has yet to be started but the serious thought is out there that it will be done.

[JimminyCricket]

Yes I am saying that. Michigan is not the thriving state Texas was and still is. They had/ve the money to do these kinds of projects.

"Dallas Area Rapid Transit must cut jobs and scrap nearly all rail expansion plans for the next 20 years, agency executives told board members Tuesday, citing discouraging revenue forecasts. "

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...t.37eb390.html