What light rail will do for Detroit

[Russix]

...
In terms of improved bus service, I think no-stop express buses between the existing multi-bus transit stops [[downtown, Royal Oak, Fairlane, Macomb Mall, Northland, State Fair) would help make the overall system more useful, beyond anything else we might try to do.

But I'm not transit king; in fact, nobody any longer is.

There was talk at one time of making the SMART buses limited stop in both directions once inside the City of Detroit. This would eliminate the rule of boarding only outbound and deboarding only inbound. So theoretically you could ride a SMART bus within the CoD like a DTOGS train only without a ROW or traffic signal priority. In the face of the financial and political challenges of doing anything else at this point, I think this is the best improvement we can hope for.

[Russix]

Doesn't the Grand River route have the second highest bus ridership in the city?

Yes now that those damn meddling SMART buses are gone!
[[No really, the loss of the 305 impacted yours truly greatly)

[ASR89]

Here are some bus ridership figures I found online a while back, although I don't know the source or how accurate they are.

[3rdDegreeBurns]

I agree with Professorscott.

Now, I know it's not feasible to put light rail everywhere in Detroit. It's not an all-or-nothing situation, though. Buses will still be necessary, but there are very simple, very cost-effective things that can be done to improve the performance of the system. Many of these items are incorporated as "features" of so-called BRT, but really can be implemented on any bus route anywhere:

1. Proper bus stop signage with route numbers and destination names. I understand DDOT has begun to address this since I've last been in Detroit. [[A "No Standing" sign is a bullshit excuse for a bus stop.)

2. Adequate shelters for waiting, including space for newspaper boxes [[reading is important when you're waiting for a bus or train!).

3. Route maps and schedules posted at ALL stops. System maps posted at major points on the system, showing routes and connections throughout the system.

4. Ticketing machines at ALL stops to speed boarding. I've also been to places [[like Warsaw) where you buy tickets for buses and trams from newsstands vis-a-vis a machine on the street. Once you board the bus [[through any door!), you validate your ticket in a machine. Smartcards are also useful.

5. GPS-enabled buses, with automated stop announcements, and the name of the stop displayed within the vehicle.

6. Dedicated travel lanes.

7. At transfer centers, maps of the transfer center complex, showing which buses board and alight at which locations, and enumerating the destinations served by each bus. Complete transit-network maps and real-person attendants at such transfer centers are indispensable.

8. One of the neat things I saw in Poland that I haven't seen in the States--the bus stop shelters had the name of the "station" [[usually the cross street) posted above the shelter, so that people on the bus knew where they were when the bus stopped. Again, something simple, stupid, cheap, and completely effective.

These should be MINIMUM standards for any bus service along the major routes in Detroit, and ideally, would be implemented system-wide.

Honestly, I think we are in agreement about almost everything surrounding this issue. I am 100% behind prioritizing ALL of the recommendations that you made above, ideally for the entire bus system. My comments about BRT vs. LRT are only in the context of the current reality where we have been struggling forever to get just one line on Woodward. It just seems so unlikely to me that we will be able to get additional LRT lines in the near future [[we are going to have to fight like hell to get the Woodward light rail).

Actually, if we make all the improvements that you suggested to the bus system the we would havea BRT system-wide. You see, I think we actually agree about this, maybe it's just the use of the term BRT that confuses the issue. So, I will agree to stop using it if it makes everyone more comfortable. We can just say "dramatically improved bus service" or DIBS. And again, if we can come up with the funding to replace some of the high-ridership DIBS lines with LRT in the future, I'm all for it! I also agree with prof. scott that LRT will make a huge difference as far as economic development goes.

[ghettopalmetto]

Honestly, I think we are in agreement about almost everything surrounding this issue. I am 100% behind prioritizing ALL of the recommendations that you made above, ideally for the entire bus system. My comments about BRT vs. LRT are only in the context of the current reality where we have been struggling forever to get just one line on Woodward. It just seems so unlikely to me that we will be able to get additional LRT lines in the near future [[we are going to have to fight like hell to get the Woodward light rail).

Actually, if we make all the improvements that you suggested to the bus system the we would havea BRT system-wide. You see, I think we actually agree about this, maybe it's just the use of the term BRT that confuses the issue. So, I will agree to stop using it if it makes everyone more comfortable. We can just say "dramatically improved bus service" or DIBS. And again, if we can come up with the funding to replace some of the high-ridership DIBS lines with LRT in the future, I'm all for it! I also agree with prof. scott that LRT will make a huge difference as far as economic development goes.

I don't think it would be stretching it to say that we're in agreement. I suppose I have a bias [[rooted in fact) against the term "BRT", since it gets thrown around very loosely, often by people who are not knowledgeable of what buses are, and are not, capable of doing. It's not so much a problem with buses that I have, just that they're not "rapid transit" [[see average operating speed in Cleveland example). Yet, politicians insist on foisting this upon us, as if the service quality is the same as rail, and the costs are lower. The empirical evidence shows that both claims are false.

I have thought for years that Detroit could stand to have improved bus service, most of which has nothing to do with the service itself, but rather the wayfinding system. To wit, all of the suggestions I have enumerated above, with the exception of maps, are in practice in Warsaw, Poland [[among other places). So, even with a language barrier and complete unfamiliarity with the city, I was able to get around by bus and tram without a hitch--simply because of the signage. That kind of thing goes a long way toward encouraging business and doing away with the need to dedicate so much land to parking lots.

[canuck]

I agree with Professorscott.

Now, I know it's not feasible to put light rail everywhere in Detroit. It's not an all-or-nothing situation, though. Buses will still be necessary, but there are very simple, very cost-effective things that can be done to improve the performance of the system. Many of these items are incorporated as "features" of so-called BRT, but really can be implemented on any bus route anywhere:

1. Proper bus stop signage with route numbers and destination names. I understand DDOT has begun to address this since I've last been in Detroit. [[A "No Standing" sign is a bullshit excuse for a bus stop.)

2. Adequate shelters for waiting, including space for newspaper boxes [[reading is important when you're waiting for a bus or train!).

3. Route maps and schedules posted at ALL stops. System maps posted at major points on the system, showing routes and connections throughout the system.

4. Ticketing machines at ALL stops to speed boarding. I've also been to places [[like Warsaw) where you buy tickets for buses and trams from newsstands vis-a-vis a machine on the street. Once you board the bus [[through any door!), you validate your ticket in a machine. Smartcards are also useful.

5. GPS-enabled buses, with automated stop announcements, and the name of the stop displayed within the vehicle.

6. Dedicated travel lanes.

7. At transfer centers, maps of the transfer center complex, showing which buses board and alight at which locations, and enumerating the destinations served by each bus. Complete transit-network maps and real-person attendants at such transfer centers are indispensable.

8. One of the neat things I saw in Poland that I haven't seen in the States--the bus stop shelters had the name of the "station" [[usually the cross street) posted above the shelter, so that people on the bus knew where they were when the bus stopped. Again, something simple, stupid, cheap, and completely effective.

These should be MINIMUM standards for any bus service along the major routes in Detroit, and ideally, would be implemented system-wide.

You are right about the need for buses now and in the future. One feature I like about the bus stops in Montreal is that every stop has a dedicated number say 15078 which is the eastbound stop and across the street is # 15077; an uneven number for westbound etc... Every stop has a dedicated phone number you can call to find out what the next three arrival times are. A droidvoice answers in english and french to your request. So you can be at home or the office and if you memo your busstop numbers you will know how much time you have to get to your stop.

We have smartcards too to prepay fares on a numbers or weekly/monthly pass basis. The one shortcoming is that they can demagnetize like my son's card did, in which case he had to get a validity check at a terminus, go downtown to get a new reissue. Quite a hassle.

Detroit also needs a lot more bus shelters. It should ask architects to compete in designing this and other civic structures, pick the best entry, have a shitload made [[in the city and nowhere the frig else) then sell them to cities all over. Here are details for a new bus shelter design in Montreal;

http://www.bustler.net/index.php/art...r_competition/

[ghettopalmetto]

I was going to post some photographic examples of the ideas I discussed above. Then I decided that with all the images that could be posted, it would be easier just to link to an existing page that already shows all of these things.

This is from the ZTM Warszawa [[local transit system) site. Text is in Polish, but you really don't need to read the text to understand the concepts illustrated. Photographs depict bus, tram, and metro services. Tram stops and bus stops are more-or-less identical, but the pictograph tells you which kind of vehicles stop there.

ZTM Warszawa informacje

None of this is really high-tech stuff. Just common sense.

[fryar]

You are right about the need for buses now and in the future. One feature I like about the bus stops in Montreal is that every stop has a dedicated number say 15078 which is the eastbound stop and across the street is # 15077; an uneven number for westbound etc... Every stop has a dedicated phone number you can call to find out what the next three arrival times are. A droidvoice answers in english and french to your request. So you can be at home or the office and if you memo your busstop numbers you will know how much time you have to get to your stop.

We have smartcards too to prepay fares on a numbers or weekly/monthly pass basis. The one shortcoming is that they can demagnetize like my son's card did, in which case he had to get a validity check at a terminus, go downtown to get a new reissue. Quite a hassle.

Detroit also needs a lot more bus shelters. It should ask architects to compete in designing this and other civic structures, pick the best entry, have a shitload made [[in the city and nowhere the frig else) then sell them to cities all over. Here are details for a new bus shelter design in Montreal;

http://www.bustler.net/index.php/art...r_competition/

You're right, I think. The construction cost is probably not too severe, and by using one sidewall or both for advertising, the system could recoup its costs over time. The winning bus shelter bid actually uses solar panel roofs, which in many locations would probably generate enough electricity to operate a low-voltage screen - like the e-ink display in a kindle - a couple of led lights for night-time, and a doo-hickey that connects to the now largely defunct 1st gen cellular data networks [[like zipcars' on-board computers do), obviating the need for the droidvoice system [[which is a a great idea, otherwise, btw). There's probably lots of places in this country that could use more bus shelters, and if the revenues from advertising might be sufficient to pay for the shelters, why not?
Somebody should do something.

Edit: Duh, of course that's already been done - http://spacingtoronto.ca/2007/05/25/city-hall-surprise-surprise-%E2%80%94-street-furniture-deal-gets-go-ahead/ .Oh, and it's called street furniture, and it's a whole industry. Well, hells bells, what is it gonna take to get them to come to Detroit? You would hope that the phone call inquiry, at least, has been made.

[dtowncitylover]

This has nothing to do with the technicals of LRT or BRT, but the SEMTA plan for light rail back in the late 70s/early 80s originally had the Woodward Line being built from downtown to the Boulevard and on Gratiot from downtown to just past the Ford Fwy...so this is not a new concept to take the first part of the line up to the New Center.

[canuck]

fryar-

Yes, the idea of a contest in Detroit for street furniture could be a display of Detroit's move toward more transit. A contest open to the city's architecture and industrial design firms would generate interest in the business community. There is plenty of opportunity in your city when you think of the wealth of designers and fabricators who need the work.

Another success this past year was the introduction of BIXI; a bike rental system implemented in Montreal for citizens and tourists alike to use. The city set up bike stations with solar powered parking meters. There are 114 stations and 3000 bikes on the road. Then Montreal sold the system to Boston, Minneapolis, Washington, LondonUK, Ottawa/Gatineau and Melbourne Australia. London will have 10000 bixi by the end of the contract. Boston and Melbourne around 3000. New York is seriously interested. A small firm in northern Quebec, DeVinci bikes makes them with Rio Tinto Alcan as advisers and suppliers of aluminum.

[Hermod]

whereas rails can last 100 years and railcars can last 40-50. If you count these costs as an annualized cost over the long term, as opposed to one up-front lump sum, buses come out an enormous loser.

1. Rails don't last 100 years. They have to be constantly leveled and aligned. They require periodic rail grinding to maintain the profile. Tie replacment is a cnstant expense.

2. Electric overhead is very maintenance intensive. Side running third rail is more reliable and durable, but requires a 100% fenced right of way to avoid electrocution of the terminally stupid.

3. Older rail cars have lasted a long time. Newer railcars built in the last ten years have proven to be extremely temperamental.

[stasu1213]

We are not going to see light rail or rapid trans in this city anytime soon. It is not going to happen. The new Detroit with it's parks, Villages, and farmland would not have a need for it. This ball had been bounced around on the court for nearly 40 years and no team had yet to score.

[JimminyCricket]

Again, please don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. The Health Line is a significant improvement over traditional bus service. It is an express service with fewer stops, pre-paid boarding, 0 step-up ingress and egress due to raised platforms and custom-designed buses that provide a much higher level of service than the other buses available in Cleveland. They also operate in their own dedicated lane which allows them to be much more competitive with auto transportation during periods of peak congestion.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010...ng_slower.html

"RTA's HealthLine -- a bus/rapid transit touted as a faster, more efficient way to travel Euclid Avenue -- is moving at about the same slow pace as the bus it replaced. "

one more high speed transit line than Detroit

It's not high speed. Not even close. It's moving about the same speed as the route it replaced, which ran in mixed-use traffic.

[ghettopalmetto]

Travelling 7.1 miles in 44 minutes is an average operating speed of less than 10 mph. You don't need to spend $200 million to do that. Buses in Manhattan move faster.

Trains On Tires, my ass.

[Alex Martin]

You folks still talking about this? Anybody remember the hype for the People Freaker [[Mover)? Now, where is it going to take you today? I cannot believe that anybody in charge in Detroit in the 70s, 80s or 90s were missing the fact that monies coming in were going down, down, down, and businesses were closing up or moving out.

Light rail will happen only if rich people want it.

[ghettopalmetto]

Light rail will happen only if rich people want it.

Hopefully, you're talking about "rich people" like Roger Penske and Dan Gilbert.

[3rdDegreeBurns]

Hopefully, you're talking about "rich people" like Roger Penske and Dan Gilbert.

Anyone that owns property along Woodward Ave. wants this to happen. So add to this list: Ilitches, Karmanos, DMC, WSU, UofM, State of Michigan, City of Detroit, almost any big name you can think of.

To me, the projected increase in property values is a big part of the reason why private business owners are fronting so much money for M1. They stand to make it all back and more.

[Alex Martin]

Increase in property values from what? Thing is, people come in from the suburbs, go the ball game, leave some money behind and go back.

You mean an increase in property values on Woodward?

[Detroit Stylin]

Increase in property values from what? Thing is, people come in from the suburbs, go the ball game, leave some money behind and go back.

You mean an increase in property values on Woodward?

....Yes....

[dtowncitylover]

http://www.oakgov.com/exec/index.html

I hate my county. I hate Patterson. Can these old fogies please retire so we can move on?


Mr. Patterson,
If the RTCC didn't write the legislation, then why didn't you even try to work with Lansing in drafting it? Why didn't you write a separate draft so you could at least look like your interested?

[3rdDegreeBurns]

Increase in property values from what? Thing is, people come in from the suburbs, go the ball game, leave some money behind and go back.

You mean an increase in property values on Woodward?

Yes, land values along Woodward Ave. [[and even as far as 1/4 mile away from Woodward) are likely to increase dramatically with the addition of light rail. Think about who owns most of the property along the proposed M1 line. Next, think about where the private financing for M1 is coming from... M1 is not really a philanthropic effort, it is a smart business move. I'm still in support of M1 and have nothing against the backers profiting from it. I just think it is important to keep in mind.

[Alex Martin]

I can't think of a single reason to hang out along Woodward. Back in the 1970s, people were walking along the street, you had Hudson's but Compuware? Not much for regular folks. Nope. I don't see it. But, what rich people want is what rich people get. If it helps, fine.

Otherwise, I don't see the point of light rail. What? I'm gonna park my car and ride that?

[fryar]

I can't think of a single reason to hang out along Woodward. Back in the 1970s, people were walking along the street, you had Hudson's but Compuware? Not much for regular folks. Nope. I don't see it. But, what rich people want is what rich people get. If it helps, fine.

Otherwise, I don't see the point of light rail. What? I'm gonna park my car and ride that?

Errr...what? Are you just trying to be provocative for provocation's sake? You can't think of a single reason to hang out along Woodward? I may be dating myself, but I seem to remember a bunch of restaurants, bars, clubs, theaters, museums...the odd ball park, even.

It might not be for you, fair enough, but folks, regular or otherwise, will live in apartments or houses all along the downtown-to-midtown corridor and commute to work and play using the light rail. If you drive into town specifically for the ballpark, say, or the science center, no, you probably won't ride it. At all.

And yeah, all those self-congratulatory, elitist Detroiters in their exclusive palatial apartments, just sitting on their money, forgetting about us regular folks.

[Alex Martin]

I ride out that way at least three times a month. I used to enjoy walking down Woodward. But today? I don't think so. Especially not at night.

Like I said. People from the suburbs come in, drop some change and go. I'm not trying to stir up trouble. I know what Detroit can be. I got a hint in the 80s when they opened the Festival Marketplace in Greek Town. Everywhere I turned I saw a police officer. All I get today is some nonsense or some long, elaborate formula about what Detroit needs to do. People don't feel safe. Period. Don't you watch the news? Shootings. Houses torched.

A place needs an atmosphere. Downtown Detroit has a negative one.

[DetroitDad]

I ride out that way at least three times a month. I used to enjoy walking down Woodward. But today? I don't think so. Especially not at night.

Like I said. People from the suburbs come in, drop some change and go. I'm not trying to stir up trouble. I know what Detroit can be. I got a hint in the 80s when they opened the Festival Marketplace in Greek Town. Everywhere I turned I saw a police officer. All I get today is some nonsense or some long, elaborate formula about what Detroit needs to do. People don't feel safe. Period. Don't you watch the news? Shootings. Houses torched.

A place needs an atmosphere. Downtown Detroit has a negative one.

The world is a reflection of yourself and your own attitudes.

This is a problem found by some when a people accustomed to driving everywhere, start to have face to face interactions in real casual social settings... like the downtown of a city. It never seems to occur to these people that everyone seems like a jerk or an A-hole because that is how they are presenting themselves to the world.

That whole mirror affect has to be one reason that cities are so overwhelming to many; places some "love to visit, but would never want to live".