Churches and Religions are Socialists.

**maxx** · May-05-10, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Atheism is not knowing the difference. [[Sstashmoo)

rb wrote: "that makes no sense."

See what I mean? What that means is, some folks wouldn't know the truth if it jumped up off the ground and hit em in the ass. That's what it means.

Religion has no unique truth, just belief. Learn the difference.

Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable.
H. L. Mencken

Retroit · May-05-10, 07:54 PM

I get the impression that some atheists are just as determined to get people not to believe as some Christians are to get them to believe.

So who's worse?

**terryh** · May-05-10, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Retroit

I get the impression that some atheists are just as determined to get people not to believe as some Christians are to get them to believe.

So who's worse?

The religious make declarations of faith....I make declarations of Atheism, Retroit.

You wont hear me suggest a couples child is not 'legitimate' because they havent went before some religious figurehead...or describing individual behaviours as 'sin'<too simplistic...I generally dont try to sway a person to change their belief system unless I feel antagonized

insulted or am just spoiling for a good debate

**maxx** · May-07-10, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by terryh

The religious make declarations of faith..

But the problem is that a lot of xtians I talk to don't talk about faith. They talk about the "truth" in their religion no matter how loony their beliefs. In fact the Biblical literalists are usually the most adamant that their beliefs are facts. And it's that sort of bullheadedness that keeps issues like ID and prayer in school and Jesus on public property alive.

**1KielsonDrive** · May-05-10, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by Retroit

I get the impression that some atheists are just as determined to get people not to believe as some Christians are to get them to believe.

So who's worse?

That's a good point. Sorry to deflate anyone in this discussion, I'm not determined to get people not to believe, I like to shoot down religious people who insist that faith and religion are for real for everyone, and feel the need to cram religion down everyones throats. I also get a good laugh hearing arguments made on behalf of religion : magic underwear [[thank god, so to speak, they dispensed with that concept), the holy ghost [[holy smoley!), seven virgins [[or whatever the number is), speaking in tongues [[most of those people can't even speak their native language), snake handling [[ a representative of the devil?), hallucinogenic drug ceremonies [[as close to a heavenly experience as you may ever get), etc, etc. Then there are people threatening death to cartoonists for depicting gods that have never been seen by anyone. C'mon, if you want to believe in a god or ten gods, I have no problem with it. Just don't impose him/her/it/them in my life.

**Sstashmoo** · May-06-10, 08:33 AM

Quote: "I like to shoot down religious people who insist that faith and religion are for real for everyone, and feel the need to cram religion down everyones throats."

You and maxx seem to be suffering from paranoid delusions. Nobody is trying to push their beliefs on anyone.

**rb336** · May-06-10, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "I like to shoot down religious people who insist that faith and religion are for real for everyone, and feel the need to cram religion down everyones throats."

You and maxx seem to be suffering from paranoid delusions. Nobody is trying to push their beliefs on anyone.

You clearly haven't heard what the leaders of numerous groups [[pentacostals, focus on the family, promisekeepers, etc.) have said.
here are some from the last 5 years:
Atheists should be denied citizenship [[also jews, muslims, hindus, catholics, etc)
Destroy public schools and force people to send children to christian-run schools
Require a proclomation of christian faith in order to vote
Deny atheists the right to hold public office, serve on a jury or provide testamony in court
All research facilities need a spiritual advisor to make sure their research fits with christian beliefs.

I won't even begin to tell you what I have overheard at promisekeeper meetings regarding the role of women, but it would certainly be approved by some of the less strict wahabiists

**Sstashmoo** · May-06-10, 10:58 AM

Quote: "You clearly haven't heard what the leaders of numerous groups [[pentacostals, focus on the family, promisekeepers, etc.) have said."

"Heard" would require listening which I don't do to idiots. You're right, I haven't heard. Ignore them. Nobody really takes these folks seriously.
Media loves to drag them out.

Quote: "Atheists should be denied citizenship [[also jews, muslims, hindus, catholics, etc)
Destroy public schools and force people to send children to christian-run schools
Require a proclomation of christian faith in order to vote
Deny atheists the right to hold public office, serve on a jury or provide testamony in court
All research facilities need a spiritual advisor to make sure their research fits with christian beliefs."

Yeah, like any of this would ever be made law. C'mon' you're smarter than that..

Strangely, the only people I see trying to tell others how to live is the left. i.e. Smoking bans, religious expression, etc. do as I do or get out policies. I claim neither party, just an observation.

**rb336** · May-06-10, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

"Heard" would require listening which I don't do to idiots. You're right, I haven't heard. Ignore them. Nobody really takes these folks seriously.
Media loves to drag them out...
Yeah, like any of this would ever be made law. C'mon' you're smarter than that..

Laws baring atheists from holding office or giving testamony are on the books in 13 states. school boards [[local and state) in numerous states are imposing books that distort science and history in the name of christianity

Strangely, the only people I see trying to tell others how to live is the left. i.e. Smoking bans, religious expression, etc. do as I do or get out policies. I claim neither party, just an observation.

conservatives have co-sponsored virtually every anti-smoking law in the country.

As far as banning religious expression, not ONE atheist I know wants to do that. We just believe in the establishment clause, meaning it should not be done at state-sponsored events, locations, etc. on your land, in public, fine. requiring prayer before council meetings, requiring a president to announce a day of prayer [[that goes against, clearly, the "no religious test" clause) sponsoring religious writings in, on etc our government institutions, then no, unless you give every religion the right, start stamping coins with "in Shiva we trust" and make coins with slogans for every religion and non-religious group.

seriously, how would you like it if every city council meeting started with an appeal to Odin?

**Sstashmoo** · May-06-10, 12:17 PM

Quote: "Laws baring atheists from holding office or giving testamony are on the books in 13 states."

Do you have a source for this? You mean proposed, not law, correct?

Quote: "seriously, how would you like it if every city council meeting started with an appeal to Odin?"

Well that would make about as much sense as paying homage to Bozo the clown. About the same amount of followers.

Quote: "sponsoring religious writings in, on etc our government institutions, then no, unless you give every religion the right, start stamping coins with "in Shiva we trust" and make coins with slogans for every religion and non-religious group."

Nonsense. Again, the US is made up of 80% Christian following. It is only logical you are going to see expressions of that. If it be on the money so be it. There are also symbolism of freemasonry on our money and to take it further into the fringe, symbolism of secret organizations like "Illuminati" etc. Frankly, I could care less what is put on our money, as long as its legal tender and I have some. It changes nothing for me?

**Sstashmoo** · May-06-10, 12:24 PM

Quote: "Laws baring atheists from holding office or giving testamony are on the books in 13 states"

I Googled this out of curiosity. It's 5 states and they are considered "unenforceable" It's like those stupid laws for having standing water in your yard or some BS. Do you folks really think a law like this, banning atheist from public office could be passed in this day and age? This is more handwringing from the lunatic fringe. Straw at it's finest.

**rb336** · May-06-10, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "Laws baring atheists from holding office or giving testamony are on the books in 13 states"

I Googled this out of curiosity. It's 5 states and they are considered "unenforceable" It's like those stupid laws for having standing water in your yard or some BS. Do you folks really think a law like this, banning atheist from public office could be passed in this day and age? This is more handwringing from the lunatic fringe. Straw at it's finest.

it's at least 7 - Arkansas, Maryland, Pennsylvania, North & South Carolina, Tennessee and Texas. In North Carolina, several groups are at least threatening to challenge an elected atheist council person's right to take a seat at council meetings

there are large, wealthy and influential groups who are actively trying to do all those things I mentioned. that is a fact. it is hardly "straw." Are you saying I should just go away when someone like George H.W. Bush comes out and says I shouldn't be considered a citizen? that is just plain stupid

**maxx** · May-07-10, 06:56 AM

Ssatshmoo: It is only logical you are going to see expressions of that. If it be on the money so be it. There are also symbolism of freemasonry on our money and to take it further into the fringe, symbolism of secret organizations like "Illuminati" etc. Frankly, I could care less what is put on our money, as long as its legal tender and I have some. It changes nothing for me?

maxx: I'm embarrassed that we still have such symbols of superstition on our money. Many other nations manage to have currency without such nonsense.

**Sstashmoo** · May-07-10, 09:21 AM

Quote: "I'm embarrassed that we still have such symbols of superstition on our money."

Are you also embarrassed that you live in the greatest country on the planet? Other countries tried your path, it ain't working out so well. If people choose to have faith in something, believe in something that makes them better people, what's the problem? Why do you care? Just ignore them, you admit you think it's superstition. Why all the research and continual whining about it? Move on.

**1KielsonDrive** · May-07-10, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "I'm embarrassed that we still have such symbols of superstition on our money."

Are you also embarrassed that you live in the greatest country on the planet? Other countries tried your path, it ain't working out so well. If people choose to have faith in something, believe in something that makes them better people, what's the problem? Why do you care? Just ignore them, you admit you think it's superstition. Why all the research and continual whining about it? Move on.

Here you go with the old 'god and country' routine. Like YOUR country and YOUR religion are the only and the best. No one other than your fellow religious and country people possess intelligence, ability, or societies that may possibly be as good as yours. That statement tells the whole story of religion and nationalism, neatly and succinctly. Rah, rah, shish boom bah, who's NUMBER 1. We are! We are! Yay team!

**terryh** · May-07-10, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "I'm embarrassed that we still have such symbols of superstition on our money."

Are you also embarrassed that you live in the greatest country on the planet? Other countries tried your path, it ain't working out so well. If people choose to have faith in something, believe in something that makes them better people, what's the problem? Why do you care? Just ignore them, you admit you think it's superstition. Why all the research and continual whining about it? Move on.

Sstashmoo, as I sit here behind my laptop having an impersonal conversation with you, I can honestly admit I feel a degree of empathy, and a tad bit of respect, for you having handling a debate outnumbered as you are....as I have argued before, there are technologically advanced countries with high rates of atheism,whose citizens enjoy happy healthy lives with access, or an atempt to make health care accessible to ALL citizens...AND opportunities to prosper....

**Sstashmoo** · May-07-10, 11:21 AM

Sounds like you need a week or two on the Ho Chi Min.

**1KielsonDrive** · May-07-10, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Sounds like you need a week or two on the Ho Chi Min.

Or maybe in Guantanamo? That was a real 'christ like' statement. Wishful thinking on your part? Again, a typical religious, vengeful, hateful, retributive statement. We don't have to make a case against religion. You make it for us.

**Sstashmoo** · May-07-10, 01:36 PM

Quote: "We don't have to make a case against religion."

Like any of you could..

**rb336** · May-07-10, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "We don't have to make a case against religion."

Like any of you could..

religion makes the case against itself quite well, at least to those who aren't brainwashed by it. you can probably see the cases against hinduism and islam quite clearly. guess what? the same thing goes for your religion

**maxx** · May-07-10, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "We don't have to make a case against religion."

Like any of you could..

The main reason most believe in most religions is the "heavenly reward". Very self-serving. Even a lot of Jews today believe in a personal heaven.

**Sstashmoo** · May-09-10, 10:04 AM

Quote: "as I have argued before, there are technologically advanced countries with high rates of atheism,whose citizens enjoy happy healthy lives with access, or an atempt to make health care accessible to ALL citizens...AND opportunities to prosper...."

Then what are you doing here then? I mean that in a nice way. In my line of work over the years, I have associated with many engineers from abroad here on temporary station. I have not met one yet, that was homesick. After a month here, they are trying to figure out a way to stay here an move their families over. In talking to them, and them outlining what is better about the US, one cannot blame them. We truly live in the best country on the planet. A country founded by a free and God-fearing people.

God shed his grace on thee, from sea to shining sea. I'm putting my flag out today..

**Zacha341** · May-09-10, 11:17 AM

Sstashmoo, I've warned you before! LOL! You best sing that song in the basement in the dark, with the shades drawn

!! Put yo' flag back up before you're branded intolerant, right-winged, NRA kook, etc! **wink-wink**

I work with adults in the educational arena with some as recent immigrants; some from well to do families, others who have suffered beatings in jail etc. fighting for years to get here... Some are amazed at "what you have" [[what we take for granted)... withstanding the legitimate issues and problems US faces...

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "as I have argued before, there are technologically advanced countries with high rates of atheism,whose citizens enjoy happy healthy lives with access, or an atempt to make health care accessible to ALL citizens...AND opportunities to prosper...."

Then what are you doing here then? I mean that in a nice way. In my line of work over the years, I have associated with many engineers from abroad here on temporary station. I have not met one yet, that was homesick. After a month here, they are trying to figure out a way to stay here an move their families over. In talking to them, and them outlining what is better about the US, one cannot blame them. We truly live in the best country on the planet. A country founded by a free and God-fearing people.

God shed his grace on thee, from sea to shining sea. I'm putting my flag out today..

**terryh** · May-09-10, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "as I have argued before, there are technologically advanced countries with high rates of atheism,whose citizens enjoy happy healthy lives with access, or an atempt to make health care accessible to ALL citizens...AND opportunities to prosper...."

Then what are you doing here then? I mean that in a nice way. In my line of work over the years, I have associated with many engineers from abroad here on temporary station. I have not met one yet, that was homesick. After a month here, they are trying to figure out a way to stay here an move their families over. In talking to them, and them outlining what is better about the US, one cannot blame them. We truly live in the best country on the planet. A country founded by a free and God-fearing people.

God shed his grace on thee, from sea to shining sea. I'm putting my flag out today..

We have high rates of immigration from west Europe and Canada? I have had friends from war torn and impoverished 'third world' countries rave about America, some also have confided disapointment in our system...
not all of the founding fathers were deists.....
the overwhelming majority of fellow Americans I know personally do in fact identify with a certain faith, but most dont practice or vaguely understand interpretations of scripture, and there are those who co-habitate and blaspheme etc., all the while decrying criticisms of their respective faiths....