lake st clair wind farm discussion

[SpartanTom]

Now global warming err, global cooling oh wait yes now its CLIMATE CHANGE[[that's a cute way of saying no matter which way the climate goes-- It's all man made!!) is going to dry up Lake St. Clair! Sound the alarms, hide under your bed, the lake is drying, the lake is drying!!!

It is called global warming. The average temperature of the entire planet is rising faster than it has in thousands and thousands of years. And it just so happens to correlate with the beginning of the industrial revolution. I'd say that's a pretty good indicator that it is man-made. You can bury your head in the sand all you want, just don't get in the way of progress.

Hey if wind farms are so awesome-why oh why do they need government subsidies?

Link? And if subsidies are offered for clean energy, it would be stupid not to take them. I am 100% for any subsidy or other incentives to free us from our dependence on oil.

People being concerned about the value of one of their rather large investments? FOR SHAME!
Tell ya what how about if I put a landfill by your house, or a methadone clinic across the street from you, would you be "selfish" to be concerned about your property values?

But its for the good of the community!!!

You're comparing a stately, clean and renewable energy supplying windmill with a landfill or methadone clinic?

I would be more concerned about the housing market, brain drain of Michigan and general de-population affecting your precious property value. How about we do something that will attract more people to live in our great state? Something like be a pioneer in clean and renewable energy?

Your perceived "property value" is essentially zero if there are no buyers.

The children! The children, we must help the children!

The lake will be dried up, there will be no oil left on the planet, oceans will overtake the lands and it all could have been prevented if we had just installed a couple of wind turbines in Lake St. Clair!!!

It is a start and better than doing nothing.

[SpartanTom]

Saying that the Lakeshore Dr. residents don't realize that they don't own the lake is rather odd. I'm sure they are fully aware that about 60% of Lake St. Clair is indeed located in another country [[and not fully owned by the State of Michigan).

That goes without saying, which is why I didn't.

And no one has mentioned building turbines on the Michigan side of the lake... It's funny how these threads take on a life of their own....

Wind power generation on the Great Lakes is going to happen in the U.S. Might as well get used to it.

[Mind field]

Lincoln8740, your selfish and provincial mindset really shines in your last few posts. People really need to educate themselves instead of being so reactionary and selfish. The documentary coal country should be required viewing for anyone remotely concerned about how and where the coal comes from to fire the coal fired power plants that allow you to watch tv and turn on the lights. The amount of devastation that mountain top removal coal mining wreaks is so vast it can be seen from satellites orbiting our planet. Not to mention the insane amount of toxic pollution that coal fired power plants produce, and just because it's not coming out of the smokestack doesn't mean it isn't there, coal ash impoundments are leaching toxic heavy metals into our groundwater. Regardless of your view of climate change, it's just common sense to stop the destructive practice of burning coal to produce electricity. But from what i've seen, your childish ranting and illogical and bizarre conclusions on the intent of others' posts lead me to believe you lack common sense.

There are many other points which i could address, such as why wind farms need and use government subsidies. As if the coal and oil industry don't use any subsidies, and aren't much more mature and developed technologies? It's less about the actual viability of what's being subsidized, and more about Washington politics and powerful, wealthy lobbies.

btw lincoln, do you have an INDEPENDENT source proving that wind farms lower property values?

[lincoln8740]

Lincoln8740, your selfish and provincial mindset really shines in your last few posts.

But from what i've seen, your childish ranting and illogical and bizarre conclusions on the intent of others' posts lead me to believe you lack common sense.

Okay one more time

I know that this project is located in Canadian waters but if this project were to touch Michigan waters in front of the mansions in Grosse Pointe Shores/Farms I said the following:

1. we will have a republican governor very shortly and this plan will go nowhere.

2. The people whose views are affected are very wealthy and very politically connected and once again the plan will go nowhere.

3. I offered as a way of compromise cutting the real estate taxes of the people whose views are affected by 50%


For the above three points I have been labeled selfish, childish, lacking common sense and myriad of other names.

[edgar_rhode]

i attended the session last monday at the war memorial. there were easily 200+ attendees in the room. someone supposedly accurately measured the distances with a sextant and positioned a horizon line on the window overlooking the lake with decals representing the estimated size of the wind turbines. by the photos i posted earlier [[ from the NYT ) i believe the size is probably fairly correct - though including the sweep of the turbines as black circles is a little deceptive - all the blades i've ever seen on turbines are almost invisble in action.

[[ see first picture )

the speakers and the audience participation was much more level headed than i would have expected in this age of extremism and teabagging. i came away with one fact i didn't know. one of the speakers stated that michigan spends $24 billion [[ with a b ) on energy each year.

it was stated many times that this is a canadian effort and the state of michigan is pretty much a voyeur in this matter. and yes there were some anti wind farm canadians in attendance.

the only person to get any applause was one of the "raging grannies" [[ see last picture ). she made the pitch that we need to start thinking long term solutions ...

which oddly enough, looking around the room at the age of most the the attendees, was my biggest conclusion... by the time this or any real substantive project is approved and built - more than half of the attendees in that session will be dead.

[Gistok]

That 2nd picture cracks me up... it looks like the members of the "Grosse Pointe Bonnet & Quilting Club" were at the wrong meeting!

[Hermod]

Given the sweep of the fan blades being relatively high off the water, I don't see why the wind farm area has to be a restricted zone for boaters. It would seem that the "structure" formed by the bases of the windmills would be ideal for fishing.

[GPCharles]

On of the speakers from the State of Michigan told the forum that the Michigan offshore wind energy task force had determined that wind farms in Michigan would have to be a minimum of 6 miles offshore, which eliminates most of the Michigan portion of Lake St. Clair.

[DTWflyer]

While renewable energy is becoming increasingly more necessary, putting a wind farm in Lake St. Clair is a very bad idea.

I find it hard to believe they couldn't make them land-based or put them on Lake Erie where they isn't as much boat traffic.

[Barbara Dowling]

Treaties between the U.S. & Canada that may be involved in the installation of wind turbines in lake St.Clair:

1.Clean Water Treaty:
Lake St.Clair has contaminated sediments on the bottom of the lake that will
most likely be stired up during the construction of the turbines. Due to the flow
of water from the lake into the Detroit river, contaminated sediments could easily
reach the water intakes on the U.S. side.

2.Migratory Bird Treaty:
Many,many birds migrate up thru Ohio,across southwestern Ontario and on into
Michigan to nest in the spring and return via the same route in the fall. These
birds only pass thru Ontario. Will the Canadian government issue the incidental
kill permits for these migratory birds and any endangered bird species migrating
among them in numbers deemed unacceptable to people in the U.S.? Incidental
bird kill permits are needed to operate wind turbine farms in the U.S.

[lincoln8740]

Treaties between the U.S. & Canada that may be involved in the installation of wind turbines in lake St.Clair:

1.Clean Water Treaty:
Lake St.Clair has contaminated sediments on the bottom of the lake that will
most likely be stired up during the construction of the turbines. Due to the flow
of water from the lake into the Detroit river, contaminated sediments could easily
reach the water intakes on the U.S. side.

2.Migratory Bird Treaty:
Many,many birds migrate up thru Ohio,across southwestern Ontario and on into
Michigan to nest in the spring and return via the same route in the fall. These
birds only pass thru Ontario. Will the Canadian government issue the incidental
kill permits for these migratory birds and any endangered bird species migrating
among them in numbers deemed unacceptable to people in the U.S.? Incidental
bird kill permits are needed to operate wind turbine farms in the U.S.

Fantastic!! I love it when Greenies argue with other Greenies about whose environmental issue is more important!!!

Let the games begin

awesome!!!.

Or if Ms. Dowling does not like the view of turbines from her backyard and is simply using an environmental issue to stop the project dead in its tracks--
kudos to you Ms. Dowling for giving them a taste of their own medicine!

[SpartanTom]

Treaties between the U.S. & Canada that may be involved in the installation of wind turbines in lake St.Clair:

1.Clean Water Treaty:
Lake St.Clair has contaminated sediments on the bottom of the lake that will
most likely be stired up during the construction of the turbines. Due to the flow
of water from the lake into the Detroit river, contaminated sediments could easily
reach the water intakes on the U.S. side.

Dredging is the preferred method for removing contaminated sediments, so the lake would actually be slightly cleaner following construction of the wind farm. This would have no bearing on the project's feasibility.

2.Migratory Bird Treaty:
Many,many birds migrate up thru Ohio,across southwestern Ontario and on into
Michigan to nest in the spring and return via the same route in the fall. These
birds only pass thru Ontario. Will the Canadian government issue the incidental
kill permits for these migratory birds and any endangered bird species migrating
among them in numbers deemed unacceptable to people in the U.S.? Incidental
bird kill permits are needed to operate wind turbine farms in the U.S.

The amount of birds killed by wind turbines is minuscule compared to all of the other types of man-made structures. And incidental take permits are NOT required in the U.S. I am not sure if they are in Canada, but I doubt it.

[Barbara Dowling]

This is not dredging but the installation of very large piers into the lake bottom which will stir up huge amounts of sediment. Dredging is provided for under the Clean Water Treaty but not piers.

The U.S. Fish & Wild Life Service has estimated that each European wind turbine may kill up tp 37 birds/year. So there are over 950 wind turbines proposed for Essex Co.,ON. So 950 X 37 is more that 30,000 birds/year. Could there be more due to both spring and fall migrations?

The Migratory Bird Treaty protects migratory birds. That's what it is for. In the U.S. there is also a seprate Endangered Species Act/ESA which protects endangered species from unnecessary incidental kill.

[kathy2trips]

Could someone educate me as to why water turbines aren't preferable over wind. We have the natural flow of the lake system. Michigan could generate enough energy to sell and make enough money to eliminate the state income tax some day. Texas does it with oil wells, so why not Michigan with marine energy?

[Russix]

I agree with the usage of water turbines instead. The current flowing through the St. Clair river is not dependant on wind conditions. Besides any restriction to the navigable waters of Lake St. Clair will have a detrimental effect to the local water recreation economy, I'm not anti wind, we just have much much bigger lakes to put wind farms in.

[SpartanTom]

This is not dredging but the installation of very large piers into the lake bottom which will stir up huge amounts of sediment. Dredging is provided for under the Clean Water Treaty but not piers.

I don't know why you think they wouldn't take the sediment into account during installation. It's a non-issue.

The U.S. Fish & Wild Life Service has estimated that each European wind turbine may kill up tp 37 birds/year. So there are over 950 wind turbines proposed for Essex Co.,ON. So 950 X 37 is more that 30,000 birds/year. Could there be more due to both spring and fall migrations?

The Migratory Bird Treaty protects migratory birds. That's what it is for. In the U.S. there is also a seprate Endangered Species Act/ESA which protects endangered species from unnecessary incidental kill.

Again, the deaths from wind turbines is absolutely minuscule. Another non-issue.

[edgar_rhode]

slightly off topic - but perhaps not. the attached image shows the current extent of the gulf oil spill superimposed over lake st clair ... and then some.

a few dead birds and the possibility of PCB contamination seems minor in comparison.

--

completely off topic but interesting speculation.

if a geologist determined there was a significant deposit of oil and natural gas under lake st clair - would there be similar concerns or opposition to planting one or several of those big oil rigs in the lake - especially with the "drill baby drill" crowd.

[Barbara Dowling]

Birds keep insects at bay. Can anyone imagine the amounts and kinds of insecticides that will have be used to raise plant crops if we have significant bird loss in the U.S.? How about vastly increased mosquito numbers that will affect humans and animals. So the potential killing of 30,000 birds per year in just one county is to be considered minuscule? That's 300,000 per decade.

Toxic chemical compounds in the lake sediments will re-enter the water. These chemical compounds are molecular in size and cannot be removed by water treatment plants. Continued wave action against the bottom of turbine piers after installation will continue stiring up the lake sediments and releasing toxic chemical compounds into the water for years to come.

What guarantee will there be from wind farm operators or the Ontario government that toxic chemical compounds cannot or will not reach the water intakes on the U.S. side? What if the intakes have to be shut down due to heavy sediments and/or toxic compounds in the water?

[Mind field]

This is not dredging but the installation of very large piers into the lake bottom which will stir up huge amounts of sediment. Dredging is provided for under the Clean Water Treaty but not piers.

You COMPLETELY missed the point. Dredging first will remove the contaminated sediment so that when the foundations are built, the contamination will not travel downstream. Are you just conveniently concerned about these environmental non issues when they happen in your own backyard? I suggest obtaining a more global environmental perspective as the environment does not know or care about borders or nationalities. Michigan currently produces a majority of it's power from coal fired power plants, many of which source their coal from mountain top removal mines that devastate the environment and leave behind a moonscape in their wake.

Could someone educate me as to why water turbines aren't preferable over wind. We have the natural flow of the lake system. Michigan could generate enough energy to sell and make enough money to eliminate the state income tax some day. Texas does it with oil wells, so why not Michigan with marine energy?

Kathy, one day water turbines may indeed be preferrable over wind, but the technology is still in its infancy. A company called verdant power has placed its third design of turbine in New York's East River after the first two designs failed in the rivers strong currents.

[Mind field]

Birds keep insects at bay. Can anyone imagine the amounts and kinds of insecticides that will have be used to raise plant crops if we have significant bird loss in the U.S.? How about vastly increased mosquito numbers that will affect humans and animals. So the potential killing of 30,000 birds per year in just one county is to be considered minuscule? That's 300,000 per decade.

Toxic chemical compounds in the lake sediments will re-enter the water. These chemical compounds are molecular in size and cannot be removed by water treatment plants. Continued wave action against the bottom of turbine piers after installation will continue stiring up the lake sediments and releasing toxic chemical compounds into the water for years to come.

What guarantee will there be from wind farm operators or the Ontario government that toxic chemical compounds cannot or will not reach the water intakes on the U.S. side? What if the intakes have to be shut down due to heavy sediments and/or toxic compounds in the water?

You are making uninformed and alarmist assumptions. Stop it.

[Barbara Dowling]

Website: Environment Canada
The Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement 1972 & 1978. read the Agreement and see Annex #7 Dredging and #14 Contaminated Sediment.

Information is also availabe online at various websites concerning contaminated sediments in lake St.Clair. Check it out. Contaminated sediments have been removed from the St.Clair river and it was a costly proceedure.

[Mind field]

Website: Environment Canada
The Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement 1972 & 1978. read the Agreement and see Annex #7 Dredging and #14 Contaminated Sediment.

Information is also availabe online at various websites concerning contaminated sediments in lake St.Clair. Check it out. Contaminated sediments have been removed from the St.Clair river and it was a costly proceedure.

And isn't it funny that these wind turbines would actually help our great lakes become cleaner, by reducing the amount of coal we burn? Coal combustion puts out toxic mercury and other pollutants which settle in the lakes. And if it's not going out the smokestack, due to stricter air pollution standards, it's being put in containment compounds that have dubious safety records and not enough oversight and regulation. In other words the toxic crap seeps into our groundwater or in a worst case scenario the containment catastrophically fails.

[Barbara Dowling]

ATSDR -Agency for toxic substances & disease website has a list of the chemicals found in the 10 Mile/Lange/Revere drainage system which flows into lake St.Clair.

The list: Total PCB's,arsenic,barium,cadmium,chromium,lead,mercury ,selenium and silver. Their chart has the concentrations of these chemicals.

These chemicals were found again this spring despite efforts to clean up this drainage system.over the years.

Chemicals and chemical compounds will settle into the bottom lake sediments and be covered up with new layers of sediments. As long as these sediments are NOT disturbed these chemicals will remain covered up which is good.

[Gistok]

The 10 Mile/Lange/Revere storm drain and pleasure craft canal [[next to the Blossom Heath banquet facilities) have been a serious problem for a long time. I'm curious to know who buried all those leaking transformers and barrels of PCBs near Harper & Bon Brae [[by the Fire Station) in an unknown location... and make them responsible for the costs.

It's surprising to anyone who lives in St. Clair Shores... where a permit is needed for just about everything imaginable... why the origins and locations of these transformers still remain such a mystery. I sense hidden culpability...

The problem may be upgraded to be an EPA Superfund site later this year...
http://www.candgnews.com/Homepage-Ar...CBs-canals.asp

However, this is a continuous problem.... and is a red herring in the windmill discussion, since it affects all layers of lakebottom sediments, mainly on the USA side of Lake St. Clair. With the currents keeping a constant water flow, it is doubtful if any of these toxins made it over to the Canadian side of Lake St. Clair.

If anything... waterfront Grosse Pointers should be more concerned about being downstream of a "Love Canal" type site, rather than worrying about the sediments and distant views of windmills on the Canadian side of the lake.

[Cougar]

If the liberal politicians weren’t on the payroll of the environmental extremists and willing to acknowledge this Global Warming crap for the hoax that it is, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion over Windmill Farms. If windmill energy were such a proven alternative to traditional methods of energy production, there would be countless companies vying for contracts with the respective communities and states. Instead, what we are witnessing is the limited competition of “Green Companies� vying for government grants and the accompanying subsidies which will most likely continue throughout the lifetime of those farms.

One only has to look at the current history of AMTRAK, the alleged solution for mass transit, and the billions of dollars in government subsidies required annually to keep them on track.

Next to Global Warming and the upcoming “Carbon Credit� trading program, windmill farms will prove to be just as big a waste of taxpayer monies that will serve no purpose other than to line the pockets of the political scam artists such as Al gore.