Enforcing Immigration Law is "a violation of civil rights"

[barnesfoto]

Why don't they stay there and fix it? That's what we Americans do. When the chips are down, like they are right now, we don't run to greener pastures. There is no mass exodus to Canada or anywhere else right now. We fix our own. If it's marching in the streets and demanding change, we get it fixed. One of the things that has made this country what it is or was anyway

That's typically naive.

Since you have so much time, why don't you study the history of Central America and Mexico, especially during the last 60 years?. Over and over, people who tried to "fix things" were branded "communists" by American Conservorcite Leaders. The coup in Guatemala sponsored by the Eisenhower admin is a good pace to start, and the decades of military dictatorship that peaked with Ronald Reagan's funding of Efrain Rios Mont is a textbook study of wasted money and effort. Guatemala is still a basket case of a country.
The history of Conservative meddling in Central America shows you just how easy those Civil Rights activists who went down south "to fix things" and were murdered in 1960's got off.

El Salvador, Nicaragua and Honduras have similar histories. Panama's Noriega was a close ally of Raygun-Bush, until he got a little uppity. Why don't people try to fix things, indeed!

The kleptocracy in Mexico has also been aided by the US government for years. Before the conservative PAN ruled Mexico, The Centrist PRI ruled Mexico and often arranged the execution of it's opponents. I attended the funerals of 45 people murdered by the PRI in Acteal in December 1997. Most of them were women and children and they were surrounded and machine gunned.
Carlos Salinas de Gotari, Mexicos first Neo-con, stole the 1988 election with nary a peep from the Raygun admin nor the US Press. Salinas privatized the phone system and sold it to his friend Carlos Slim, now the wealthiest man in Mexico. Salinas liberalized banking laws and his friends in the financial sector made bad loans to their friends, culminating in the peso crash of 1994. Salinas and Bush 1 were the folks who invented NAFTA. Why does Bill Clinton get credit for signing a piece of legislation that was already on the table?
[[Perhaps because such "free market" ideas have been shown to be a failure and the folks who introduced them don't wish to take responsibility).

Ola brought up the unions jobs that used to be in the meatpacking industry. That went away when Ronald Reagan deregulated meatpacking. Are Ola's friends in the party of NO going to join him in teary eyed toast to labor unions?

[[Gosh, how is it that union construction workers were marching in today's 50k strong LA march for immigration reform?)
Ola also asked what Republicans have ever held power in CA. Like many of the crowd he runs with, there is a false image of LA and CA as giant bowls of gang-banging, emergency room occupying, non-english speaking, food stamp using cholos and a few scared liberals. In fact, LA had a Republican Mayor as recently as 2001, and then there's the Governator, who has publicly criticized the police state actions in AZ.
Oh and as for the laws about being an illegal in Mexico, they are not enforced, and working there illegally is pretty easy. There are "free market" solutions for everything. That's what happens when taxes and wages are kept low, and civil servants are not allowed to join the SEIU. Ask me how I know.

[RaumVogel]

Please don't use the "This country was built by immigrants" story.Too many un-employed and homeless PEOPLE WHO WERE BORN HERE are tired of hearing it.

[oldredfordette]

I was born here and I'm not tired of hearing it. It's the truth.

[oladub]

Barnesphoto: Ola brought up the unions jobs that used to be in the meatpacking industry. That went away when Ronald Reagan deregulated meatpacking. Are Ola's friends in the party of NO going to join him in teary eyed toast to labor unions?

[[Gosh, how is it that union construction workers were marching in today's 50k strong LA march for immigration reform?)
Ola also asked what Republicans have ever held power in CA. Like many of the crowd he runs with, there is a false image of LA and CA as giant bowls of gang-banging, emergency room occupying, non-english speaking, food stamp using cholos and a few scared liberals. In fact, LA had a Republican Mayor as recently as 2001, and then there's the Governator, who has publicly criticized the police state actions in AZ.
Oh and as for the laws about being an illegal in Mexico, they are not enforced, and working there illegally is pretty easy. There are "free market" solutions for everything. That's what happens when taxes and wages are kept low, and civil servants are not allowed to join the SEIU. Ask me how I know.

Sounds like you have some historical and personal reasons to get even with the US. Reagan is one of the reasons why I'm not Republican. He gave amnesty to over 4 million illegal aliens and, as you say, substituted their labor for good paying union Amerirican jobs. He had Ollie North running an illegal war out of the basement of the Whitehouse. Reagan failed to deliver on his promise to protect the border. Subsidizing something creates more of it. Rewarding 4 million illegal aliens with US citizenships encouraged more to come here. Obama is giving us the same line as Reagan.

Any union construction workers marching with the aiders, abetters, and foreign job takers are idiots even if the crowd was only half of what was predicted and only one tenth the size of the LA illegal alien ralley of four years ago.. They don't deserve the jobs they won't have pretty soon. But more likely it was SEIU and government union members.

I didn't ask anything. I said that its been a long time since the Republicans have controlled California or Los Angeles so it it difficult for you to make the case that their respective financial messes are the fault of Republicans. The people there voted for the even bigger spending Democrats and now have the financial mess they voted for.

[maxx]

papasito:It's not an Obama thing, Presidents going to Reagan and Carter have all failed on immigration.

maxx: This had been going on before Carter. He gave a lot of illegal aliens amnesty.

[Sstashmoo]

I wrote:

Why don't they stay there and fix it? That's what we Americans do. When the chips are down, like they are right now, we don't run to greener pastures. There is no mass exodus to Canada or anywhere else right now. We fix our own. If it's marching in the streets and demanding change, we get it fixed. One of the things that has made this country what it is or was anyway

barnesfoto wrote: That's typically naive.

No it isn't. We've had several policy changing uprisings in this country. People here love their country and are willing to fight to make it right and preserve it.

Your ramble about everything happening there is the fault of our conservative government past and present, is total nonsense. Our leaders branded them "Communists" ? oh for heaven sakes.. So then everyone just went back home and allowed their Governments' crap to continue? Americans have more of a pitbull mentality, when we bite down, we don't let go.

[Sstashmoo]

I look at this immigration thing like a 300 seat airplane. Some people would let a thousand board, so it could smash into the trees at the end of the runway. "This country was built by immigrants" Yes it was. Guess what.. times have changed. We don't need any additional labor, we have idle factories sitting everywhere. We have millions of US citizens that are unemployed and will take any job they can get. This nonsense that we need to open our borders, so whats left can be further diluted is pen off the paper idiotic.

Someone asked me "only let people in when times are good?" Hell yes, and no other time.

Let's see, we have millions unemployed, lets approve applications for more to come in and look for work. Can't even make it up..

[barnesfoto]

The GOP Taliban's Winter Offensive



Posted by AzBlueMeanie:


David Safier touched upon this the other day in Read 'em and weep. The GOP Taliban have been on their Winter offensive this past couple of weeks, and no one has been spared from their cruelty and ideological purity dictates. The Crazies is not just a movie premiering in theaters this week, the crazies are in charge of the asylum that is the Arizona Legislature.

Here is just a brief list of the recent GOP Taliban attacks on the citizens of Arizona:

The House passed a package of corporate welfare give-aways designed to help businesses that will cut state revenues by more than $940 million a year by the time it is fully implemented seven years from now, transferring the corporate tax burden to you, which you will pay for through higher residential property taxes. Study: Tax proposal to cut Ariz. revenue

Governor Jan Brewer's proposed cuts to AHCCCS health care would drain an estimated $2.7 billion in state and federal funding from Arizona's economy and result in the loss of 42,000 jobs, according to an analysis by economists at Arizona State University. Proposed state health-care cuts could cost billions, opponents say Even Taliban leader Ayatollah Glenn Hamer [[Arizona Chamber of Commerce) is opposed to this idea.

The Senate Appropriations Committee voted to pass a bill on to the full Senate that requires the posting of a Ten Commandments monument at the state's old Capitol building. Sen. Sylvia Allen, R-Snowflake, said "People [the minority] need to be tolerant of the majority's beliefs..." Sen. Russell Pearce, R-Mesa, who crafted the measure, said it's wrong to think of the commandments as religious. Instead, he called them "ten little rules."

Sen. Russell Pearce sponsored a bill to make it legal to carry a concealed weapon without a permit, and eliminate any background checks and training classes for people to carry hidden guns. "All we're doing is handcuffing good people, restricting their constitutional, God-given right to carry and perhaps their ability to defend their families," said Sen. Pearce. Maybe ol' Russell should actually read those "ten little rules."

The Senate Judiciary Committee approved a bill that would prohibit local governments from enforcing stricter rules on firearms ownership than what’s written in state law. The shoe is now on the other foot with that big bad government thing.

The House Committee on Military Affairs and Public Safety approved language that, if adopted by voters in November, would prohibit any law or regulation “that unreasonably restricts hunting, fishing and harvesting wildlife or the use of traditional means and methods.� It also would constitutionally make hunting “a preferred means of managing and controlling wildlife.� Darren LaSorte, lobbyist for the National Rifle Association said hunting needs protection from the “tyranny of the majority.� Maybe he should explain that concept to Sylvia Allen about the Ten Commandments.

The House approved a bill sponsored by Rep. Warde Nichols, R-Gilbert, that gives priority to placing adoptive children with married couples over single individuals. The bill moves on to the Senate. Sen. Jack Harper has submitted a bill banning adoption to homosexuals in the state Senate. That bill has yet to be given a hearing. Oh, it will.

The House Government Committee voted for the proposal by Rep. Judy Burges, R-Skull Valley, to require presidential contenders to prove to Arizona's secretary of state they're "natural born citizens" to get their names on the ballot. 40 Republican "birther" lawmakers want President Obama and possibly every presidential candidate to prove they are a natural-born U.S. citizen to get on the Arizona ballot. Sen. John McCain [[who was born in the Panama Canal Zone) says the "birthers" are crazy [[You can see the ad here.) Finally, something McNasty and I can agree upon.

The House Government Committee approved a bill sponsored by Rep. Carl Seel, R-Phoenix, that would require schools to annually report how many illegal immigrants are enrolled and how much it costs to educate them. What, was Sen. Russell Pearce too busy? The Arizona Department of Education would be required to collect data on public school students who cannot prove their lawful presence in the United States. That data would be compiled into a report that would be submitted every year to the governor, the Legislature and the state treasurer. GOP Taliban legislators want to be federal ICE agents now.

Rep. David Stevens, R-Sierra Vista, wants to go one step further: he wants GOP Taliban legislators to be criminal investigators and to have access to the names of Arizonans who receive government-subsidized Medicaid, long-term care or whose kids receive discounted health care. Stevens claims that, because of his background in computers, he is qualified to make sure that the data each state agency has on participants is accurate. He would use his personal computer to sift through the data and "flag" suspect information. Inspector Clouseau wants to look for the mythical "welfare queen" of Ronald Reagan legend.

There is a House bill that includes a ban on “knowingly� creating or “attempting to create a human-animal hybrid.� Seriously. I guess Rick "man on dog" Santorum will not be visiting Arizona any time soon.

Rep. "Don't make me angry" Frank Antenori has a bill that says incandescent light bulbs produced in Arizona should not be subject to federal laws or regulations. This "Tenther" wants to sue the big bad federal government over "commerce clause" legal theory rejected since the 1930s.

House lawmakers approved a proposal to make the colonial Spanish horse the state horse. This proposal may not survive in the Senate where Sen. Russell Pearce will discover that honoring Spanish colonialism is part of the Aztlán movement and is a conspiracy by La Raza and MEChA.

The House Government Committee approved a proposal by Rep. Frank Pratt, R-Casa Grande, to make milk the official drink of Arizona. Please tell me I do not have to suffer through TV ads of Pat Boone saying "milk, it does a body good"? Rep. "Don't make me angry" Frank Antenori said "There's an old saying in Arizona, 'Whiskey's for drinkin', water's for fightin'," suggesting that the former "probably would be a more appropriate state drink." I'll drink to that.


So what are sane Arizonans who live in the "reality-based" community to do? This constant assault upon our intellect, reason and rationality is too much to bear. The Age of Enlightenment is being replaced by a new Dark Ages.

Maybe what we need is a movement of our own to rally our troops. The Democratic Resistance [[aka Freedom Fighters) of the Free Republic of Arizona needs to go on a Spring counter-offensive against the GOP Taliban from the State of Maricopa. The GOP Taliban insurgents operating within the territories controlled by the Free Republic of Arizona need to be rolled up and defeated. Our goal is to drive the GOP Taliban insurgents back within their stronghold of the State of Maricopa. Even within the State of Maricopa, the Freedom Fighters of the Democratic Resistance have established bases of operation. It is time to go on the offensive and to topple the GOP Taliban regime.

This requires boots on the ground and lots of money. Volunteer for the Democratic candidate of your choice or your local Democratic Party organization. Run for office yourself if no one is running against one of the GOP Taliban in your territory. Open up your wallet and give until it hurts. We only have one chance to reverse the gathering storm of a GOP Taliban Dark Ages. Defeat is not an option. Rise up and fight back!

http://www.blogforarizona.com/blog/2...offensive.html

[Zacha341]

You make many compelling points. However, self preservation is not what this is about, the politicize response reflects what is in some peoples minds "righting" wrongs of America [[rich greedy capitalists) applied to illegal immigrants et al.

It is so politicized for example that Jessie Jackson is blind to see that opening the flood gates to the illegals will hurt black people first with the already limited jobs.

It is all about the bigger agenda to transform the big bad US, which has done no good, only committing great strife all over the globe, criss-cross fashion [[as described by those fighting to get in). Even if that is suicide of the now fragile economic and social infrastructure.

Throw the gates wide open. Amnesty for all! Now. No need to prolong the inevitable. We have health care for all, let's include more. The rich shall pay for it [[including the new defined filthy rich who make over $200,000 and downward).

We have the money, the housing, the jobs, doctors and hospitals all waiting and ready. Once the "change" of America is fully realized all will be good and peaceful across the land... yes.

I look at this immigration thing like a 300 seat airplane. Some people would let a thousand board, so it could smash into the trees at the end of the runway. "This country was built by illegals" Yes it was. Guess what.. times have changed. We don't need any additional labor, we have idle factories sitting everywhere. We have millions of US citizens that are unemployed and will take any job they can get. This nonsense that we need to open our borders, so whats left can be further diluted is pen off the paper idiotic.

Someone asked me "only let people in when times are good?" Hell yes, and no other time.

Let's see, we have millions unemployed, lets approve applications for more to come in and look for work. Can't even make it up..

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "However, self preservation is not what this is about,"

Oh, yes it is. If we don't look out for ourselves and protect our standard of living, nobody else will. Think the Government cares how good you have it? One only needs to look at the insane trade policies and what they have allowed to happen to our manufacturing sector with regard to China trade. A 10 year old can see how harmful that has been and continues to be. And yet they allow it to continue unabated. I've always been a US-firster, and see it traitorous , to dump Chinese crap on the markets here and eliminate jobs and lower the standard of living. Any politician that would allow it, is a traitor, him or herself.

Zacha, the rest of your post is spot on.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Volunteer for the Democratic candidate of your choice or your local Democratic Party organization. Run for office yourself if no one is running against one of the GOP Taliban in your territory. Open up your wallet and give until it hurts. We only have one chance to reverse the gathering storm of a GOP Taliban Dark Ages. Defeat is not an option. Rise up and fight back!"

Umm, we have a Democratic President and a Democratically controlled congress already. Any other ideas?

[Zacha341]

I was being sardonic! Self preservation is the point... to those who see it as a factor. And it is now thought to be embarrassing to think "America first". Yeck! You must be a "right-winger". LOL! America is too guilty of too much to be first. We dropped the bomb on Japan, we need one dropped on us... thus ridding us of the collective guilt before our secular god. Hah!

So the some of thinking goes... unspoken, but I see no need to be coy! America is bad, BAD and must be brought down. The greedy rich first [[originally known as the middle-class). The new elite ruling class will dispense their riches too. Yeah, despite the fact that historically this has never happened under any "system" of governance.

Quote: "However, self preservation is not what this is about,"

Oh, yes it is. If we don't look out for ourselves and protect our standard of living, nobody else will. Think the Government cares how good you have it? One only needs to look at the insane trade policies and what they have allowed to happen to our manufacturing sector with regard to China trade. A 10 year old can see how harmful that has been and continues to be. And yet they allow it to continue unabated. I've always been a US-firster, and see it traitorous , to dump Chinese crap on the markets here and eliminate jobs and lower the standard of living. Any politician that would allow it, is a traitor, him or herself.

Zacha, the rest of your post is spot on.

[Sstashmoo]

I didn't detect your sardony. [[I know it's not a word, but it should be)

[RaumVogel]

I was born here and I'm not tired of hearing it. It's the truth.

So what does it have to do with ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION?

[oldredfordette]

What does your question have to do with the way I replied to your statement?

[johnsmith]

Hundreds of Americans seek to fill vacant positions once held by illegal aliens at Pro's Ranch Market

PHOENIX -- Job hunters turned out in the hundreds to fill recently-vacant positions at Pro's Ranch Market stores, where a federal audit led to the firing of some 300 workers.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/Hundred...-91880224.html

So much for the "jobs Americans won't do" lie.

[Papasito]

9.7% Unemployment right now.
It took me 6 months to find the job I have right now.
I applied for everything from upper management to cleaning floors and bathrooms.
Americans are pretty desperate for any work these days.

[rb336]

papasito:It's not an Obama thing, Presidents going to Reagan and Carter have all failed on immigration.

maxx: This had been going on before Carter. He gave a lot of illegal aliens amnesty.

actually, it was Reagan who gave amnesty to 4 million or so illegals

republicans have never been serious about immigration reform. Why? because it is a downward pressure on workers' wages, and, in the end, that and less taxes for the wealthy are the ONLY things the republicans are about [[the religious stuff is just a bit of slight-of-hand to get a certain class of fools to vote against their own self interest)

Democrats should get behind immigration reform [[actually, I liked some of Reagan's ideas - namely those involved with fining employers). frankly, if you are here illegally, you are breaking the law. If you hire people who are hear illegally, you are breaking the law. I agree, to an extent, with stash -- we have enough people here already. we don't have enough jobs for our unskilled labor, let alone that of other countries. Our laborers have increased productivity 70% over the last 30 years, and have seen virtually none of it, except when they see their boss' McMansion with a Maybach parked in the porte-cochere

[barnesfoto]

What a surprise, Papasito [[who reminds us again and again that illegal immigrants are criminals, and to drive his point home, used Paul Poltis' intellectual property without permission {That's theft!!} was crowing praises of Ray-Gun on another thread a few months back, a perfect illustration of my point that those who obsess about this issue often voted for the same folks who contributed to the situation.

Incidentally, one of the people given amnesty under Ray-Gun was that guy who hosts a popular TV show called "The Dog Whisperer".

I keep hearing how "those people" steal jobs, but whose job did Cesar Milan steal?

Another thought...There are never any illegal immigrants in union shops. Our conservocrite friends can't explain why illegal immigrants are fleeing from countries with conservative economic and social policies, [[low taxes, weak unions, no "socialist" health care policies, no welfare, no abortion etc) or why people would break the law rather than wait ten years to get into the US...

Perhaps they could explain why companies with union workforces have no undocumented employees? [[Thus eliminating the need for one of those "big government programs" that they are always shrieking about)

In the last 50 years, the cult of NO has gone from using civil rights workers to using union workers and finally to using undocumented workers as their scapegoats.

Neat trick, eh?

I can smell another cut and paste of the article by Pat Buchannan coming [[Some of you may remember him, conservocrite icon. Like Donald Rumsfeld and Karl Rove, he goes all the way back to the Nixon Admin, so that he is certainly qualified to write about crime!

[Michigan]

This "let them in" mentality is the same one that is ruining, or rather has ruined Detroit. This country only works because of the rule of law. Most of you never seem to have learned this fact. Sad that you have no understanding of the underpinnings and foundation of your country and for that we all suffer.

[Papasito]

we can't even take care of the people here already, I don't know how or why the people who want so badly to see this country bankrupted and collapsed are so hellbent upon thier mission.



And the "open borders" folks are the same ones who point fingers at the "evil corporations" who employ the illegals, while they cheer as more and more illegals flood over for the same corporations to use them. Why is it "racist" and "immoral" to effectively police and protect our borders?

[maxx]

Diehard: Except that illegals can't vote. Could it be the groups they're pandering to are actually the business owners who like cheap labor?

maxx: That is no doubt true. But I think there are a lot of people in this country with conflicting loyalties, and they aren't just Hispanic.

[maxx]

rb336: Democrats should get behind immigration reform [[actually, I liked some of Reagan's ideas - namely those involved with fining employers). frankly, if you are here illegally, you are breaking the law. If you hire people who are hear illegally, you are breaking the law. I agree, to an extent, with stash -- we have enough people here already. we don't have enough jobs for our unskilled labor, let alone that of other countries. Our laborers have increased productivity 70% over the last 30 years, and have seen virtually none of it, except when they see their boss' McMansion with a Maybach parked in the porte-cocher.

maxx: Those fines were little more than slaps on the wrist. I've a feeling that if we got rid of all the illegal aliens in our food industry and replaced them with U.S. citizens, food prices would go up considerably. Again the doc "Food, Inc." gave some graphic details of the lousy working conditions in some slaughterhouses. Workers get carpal tunnel from repetitive movements and develop something that makes their fingernails fall off. And that's not to mention the major cuts and maimings from equipment and the pace of the line. I hope the Obama admin. has brought OSHA's budget back in line so they can do some real surprise inspections. And I wonder what the backlog from the Reagan civil rights commission/ or workers' rights panel looks like now. Republicans give mouth service to the individual's rights, but they drag their feet when it comes to actually doing something.

[Papasito]

I've a feeling that if we got rid of all the illegal aliens in our food industry and replaced them with U.S. citizens, food prices would go up considerably.

so what.
im not going to let saving a few bucks mean more than our country's laws
you cant put a price on preserving a nations borders, language and culture

My neighbor's brother just got here from San Luis Potosi, where the small town that he lived in has been turned into a dangerous battlefield by the Mexican [[Conservocrite) Goverment's War on Drugs. The family simply paid a coyote 5k rather than wait the ten years it would take for him to come legally. They have a bit of money and figured that if he didn't leave, he'd be kidnapped and it would cost them even more money..He'll simply help out my neighbors with their business.
My neighbors told me the family happily would have paid that 5K to the US Government, rather than a coyote, who brought him up stashed in a van.

These people made a concious decision to take a risk.
Anyone who breaks immigration law knows there is always the possibility they may be caught and sent back. They chose to take that chance when they decided to come here illegally.

[Danny]

Please don't use the "This country was built by immigrants" story.Too many un-employed and homeless PEOPLE WHO WERE BORN HERE are tired of hearing it.

This country was and still is built by immigrants. Most of them came here homeless and broke.