DetNews: Midtown development sparks battles

[kraig]

Maybe in the old days we had more of them, but I don't think we have as many as we used to in the old days, back when we used to joke that Detroit was "Wig Capital of the World." But it doesn't seem to be like the old days anymore.

Just one of those things that makes me sit up and wonder if there's anything else outdated in the mix of ideas you bring to the forum. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

I provided information to back up what I'm saying, while all you can offer is an insult. Talk about outdated. Never mind that, let's keep the conversation focused on Midtown.

[Detroitnerd]

I provided information to back up what I'm saying, while all you can offer is an insult. Talk about outdated. Never mind that, let's keep the conversation focused on Midtown.

Haha. Insults? You'll know well and good when I'm insulting you. It's an observation, perhaps unflattering, but one that I think is justified. "Wig Shop City?" That's sooooo late-1980s. Seriously.

[kraig]

Haha. Insults? You'll know well and good when I'm insulting you. It's an observation, perhaps unflattering, but one that I think is justified. "Wig Shop City?" That's sooooo late-1980s. Seriously.

My point has been there are a lot of old banks that were converted into stores that sold human hair. If you think this isn't true, fine. But a drive through the City will indicate otherwise. As far as the "Wig Shop City" and "wig capital of the world" comments, those are your words, not mine.

Now, in an effort to stay focused on Midtown and development in the City. At what point does a decision need to be made that adding layers of bureaucracy and the amount of multi-membered body[[s) that people have to deal with, before they even start dealing with the elected officials, needs to be curtailed in order to make Detroit more business friendly?

The start-up costs and length of time to do business in the City of Detroit is far higher than it should be.

[Detroitnerd]

My point has been there are a lot of old banks that were converted into stores that sold human hair. If you think this isn't true, fine. But a drive through the City will indicate otherwise. As far as the "Wig Shop City" and "wig capital of the world" comments, those are your words, not mine.

Actually, most of the places I saw as wig shops looked as though they'd always been wig shops. See, that's the kind of thing makes me wonder if you know what you're talking about. Carry on.

[kraig]

Actually, most of the places I saw as wig shops looked as though they'd always been wig shops. See, that's the kind of thing makes me wonder if you know what you're talking about. Carry on.

You have your opinion, I have my facts. Earlier on, you appeared to have some insight on the midtown issue. In an effort to talk about the real issue, I think the two of us, along with anyone reading this, can agree that we've been distracted enough on hair. Do you have anymore that you're willing to share on the Midtown issue or Development in general?

[Detroitnerd]

You have your opinion, I have my facts. Earlier on, you appeared to have some insight on the midtown issue. In an effort to talk about the real issue, I think the two of us, along with anyone reading this, can agree that we've been distracted enough on hair. Do you have anymore that you're willing to share on the Midtown issue or Development in general?

I don't see any facts. Where are the addresses of the wig shops? Photos? Address listings? Sounds like you have exactly what I have: Sketchy recollections and vague directions. So, right off the bat there, that statement isn't quite factual. I'm not saying I want all that stuff, but those are facts, and you haven't given any. So, yeah, my nonsense detector just keeps buzzing the more I try to pin you down on an admittedly small question.

Kraig, you will simply have to get used to the fact that these discussions do have tangents, and not every effort to explore them is trolling. Not every disagreement or doubt about you is an insult. Not every effort to get a complete answer is a stalling tactic.

In short, this is not some courtroom or bush league debate club where you get to accuse people of not sticking to the agenda. There is no agenda. Capisce?

[kraig]

I don't see any facts. Where are the addresses of the wig shops? Photos? Address listings? Sounds like you have exactly what I have: Sketchy recollections and vague directions. So, right off the bat there, that statement isn't quite factual. I'm not saying I want all that stuff, but those are facts, and you haven't given any. So, yeah, my nonsense detector just keeps buzzing the more I try to pin you down on an admittedly small question.

Kraig, you will simply have to get used to the fact that these discussions do have tangents, and not every effort to explore them is trolling. Not every disagreement or doubt about you is an insult. Not every effort to get a complete answer is a stalling tactic.

In short, this is not some courtroom or bush league debate club where you get to accuse people of not sticking to the agenda. There is no agenda. Capisce?

Thoughts on Midtown or general development, anything?

[Hermod]

Actually, most of the places I saw as wig shops looked as though they'd always been wig shops. See, that's the kind of thing makes me wonder if you know what you're talking about. Carry on.

Wig shops were almost non-existent on Gratiot in 1961 [[I commuted on Gratiot from Seven Mile to downtown).

[Detroitnerd]

Thoughts on Midtown or general development, anything?

Well, while we're on the subject, where can I buy a wig?

[kraig]

Well, while we're on the subject, where can I buy a wig?

Sigh. At least add in a rim shot.

[Gistok]

Getting back on topic...

This guy who wants to build the 10 story building in place of several old [[but well maintained) apartment buildings should not be surprised that others in Midtown are against him. If he is, then he's naive.

Old and historic buildings in Midtown have been fought over for decades... ever since some WSU students fought and won the right to keep the David Mackenzie house [[WSU wanted to replace it with a storm drain)... and formed Preservation Wayne.

There have been some sad historic losses in Midtown... Mackenzie Hall was lost, as was the Gleaners Building. So that makes saving a lot of the surviving historic fabric of the area that much greater of a cause for the UCCA.

[Detroitnerd]

Getting back on topic...

This guy who wants to build the 10 story building in place of several old [[but well maintained) apartment buildings should not be surprised that others in Midtown are against him. If he is, then he's naive.

Old and historic buildings in Midtown have been fought over for decades... ever since some WSU students fought and won the right to keep the David Mackenzie house [[WSU wanted to replace it with a storm drain)... and formed Preservation Wayne.

There have been some sad historic losses in Midtown... Mackenzie Hall was lost, as was the Gleaners Building. So that makes saving a lot of the surviving historic fabric of the area that much greater of a cause for the UCCA.

I guess that just about sums it up. I'd just reiterate that "private property" is not absolute.

[dcmorrison12]

Here's the problem.... I'm an employee at these campus village apartments and I'm well acquainted with the condition of these buildings.

Campus village has put very little effort into up-keeping these historic buildings. The Verona is in good shape structurally - however the units could use some updating. As for the other buildings, the majority of them are in real bad shape. About a year ago, they bought two more buildings on the block [[58 and 68). These buildings were owned by some Troy businessman who NEVER came down to the area to check on the buildings. These buildings are in the worst shape out of the 7 which campus village owns on the block.

Point being, when CV bought these two buildings, they put next to nothing into them. They are still in the ratty condition as before [[except for a few minor cosmetic updates to the vacant units).

CV is almost no better than a slum lord. They have highly racist tactics - and turn a blind eye to their Detroit location. All of their other locations in the suburbs, other michigan cities and in other states are new and upkept.

[Detroitnerd]

Here's the problem.... I'm an employee at these campus village apartments and I'm well acquainted with the condition of these buildings.

Campus village has put very little effort into up-keeping these historic buildings. The Verona is in good shape structurally - however the units could use some updating. As for the other buildings, the majority of them are in real bad shape. About a year ago, they bought two more buildings on the block [[58 and 68). These buildings were owned by some Troy businessman who NEVER came down to the area to check on the buildings. These buildings are in the worst shape out of the 7 which campus village owns on the block.

Point being, when CV bought these two buildings, they put next to nothing into them. They are still in the ratty condition as before [[except for a few minor cosmetic updates to the vacant units).

CV is almost no better than a slum lord. They have highly racist tactics - and turn a blind eye to their Detroit location. All of their other locations in the suburbs, other michigan cities and in other states are new and upkept.

So, maybe he never intended on renovating them?

What do you mean by "racist tactics"?

[dcmorrison12]

I suppose its how you read their actions. I see their actions of putting as little effort into their Detroit location as racist. They know the tenants are mainly minorities [[not just black) and their mindset is that "since it's Detroit, we don't need to upkeep our buildings." Take a look at any of their other properties outside of the City - They're all new [[or MUCH newer) and up-kept. Mind you, the management still sucks, but they actually put capital into those areas.

Their Detroit location is just a passing thought to them.

[kraig]

I suppose its how you read their actions. I see their actions of putting as little effort into their Detroit location as racist. They know the tenants are mainly minorities [[not just black) and their mindset is that "since it's Detroit, we don't need to upkeep our buildings." Take a look at any of their other properties outside of the City - They're all new [[or MUCH newer) and up-kept. Mind you, the management still sucks, but they actually put capital into those areas.

Their Detroit location is just a passing thought to them.

Look at what you wrote. Look at what Campus Village is proposing. Now, look at what's being opposed.

[Gistok]

Thanks for the info dcmorrison12... by the sound of the newspaper article, CV spent a million dollars fixing them up. Your comments say otherwise....

[Huggybear]

So does building a new building remedy that?

I suppose its how you read their actions. I see their actions of putting as little effort into their Detroit location as racist. They know the tenants are mainly minorities [[not just black) and their mindset is that "since it's Detroit, we don't need to upkeep our buildings." Take a look at any of their other properties outside of the City - They're all new [[or MUCH newer) and up-kept. Mind you, the management still sucks, but they actually put capital into those areas.

Their Detroit location is just a passing thought to them.

[stasu1213]

I'll tell a story that I think is a good analogy to some of the problems we have with development in Midtown.

I was walking through Greektown to get to my favorite hole-in-the-wall, and I saw the same old blues busker I always saw, playing on the corner of St. Antoine and Monroe streets. But this time, I notice he wasn't alone; another busker was playing electric guitar catercorner. Well, being a joker, I rolled up to the bluesman and offered him a dollar, saying, "This is for you because I see your competition has gone electric."

But you know what happened? He refused the dollar. He said, "I can't accept your dollar because you're giving it for the wrong reason. You see, we're not competing. The more buskers down here, the more people come. The more people come, the more money we all make. So keep your money and please understand we're trying to make something bigger than us here."

Boy, was I humbled. I was just trying to make a joke and I got schooled. But the truth is, many of our local "developers" would be better off to understand this gentleman busker's point: It's not about creating your own personal monopoly and just wiping out and harassing the competition just because you're on one corner and there's somebody across the street doing something similar. It's about creating a critical mass. The more the merrier. Ultimately, that's what makes a city: Lots of different players creating something that has plenty of choices, which draws more people, which helps everyone make more money.

But instead of this forward-thinking mentality, why do we still have people who think they must own it all, eliminate competition and buy up every property? It means fewer people doing creative things! And, really, we should be growing up and doing just the opposite.

My 2 cents.

Too many educated fool working in city government who allow it. We need common people to run city government who has the natural business sense not to let one person[[Ilitch, Penske, Karmanos), to monopolize everything in Detroit. The street corner musician should had ran for office.

[kraig]

So does building a new building remedy that?

To me, you and most people with a sense of business, yes. When looking at Midtown, there is a good mix of old and new, a whole lot of new.

That's why I posted what I posted earlier. A big part of Dcmorrison's complaint was that Campus Village had newer properties everywhere else except Detroit. That may be because they weren't fought on providing that anywhere else.

What we as Detroiters have to realize is that with the city's economic state being what it is, we should strive to make doing business in the City less complicated than anywhere else, not more. Small, independent and medium sized businesses can't afford to spend additional money jumping through all of the hoops that are set in front of them.

[Huggybear]

I guess that just about sums it up. I'd just reiterate that "private property" is not absolute.

I would reiterate that private property is quite absolute in this state, and the Michigan Supreme Court has done everything in its power to make it so. In fact, it's gone so far as to remove the eminent domain power from the City of Detroit. That is going to become a huge problem when the city needs to give the coup-de-grace to some blocks and neighborhoods [[what is called "rightsizing" here).

If you think that historic designations and neighborhood disapproval have ever prevented an owner hell-bent on destroying something from doing so, you can visit scores of historically-registered buildings in Carlton Farms and other landfills.

The useful object of getting designations is the tax credits - the carrot rather than the stick. Then you can show the owner the light about the economic advantages of keeping the historic property. That, of course, assumes that the tax credits can be sold [[they are only valuable to people and entities that actually make money). But if you can't make that property work for that owner, then you have to raise enough money to buy him out. That's it. Maybe here Wayne State could trade him a property - like the Circa 1890 Saloon building, which if I recall, is a former auto dealership and now Wayne State maintenance facility.

Wayne State, for its part, has a lot of schizophrenia about preservation. In the 1950s and 1960s, it wiped out a ton of what would now be "historic" buildings to build a Yamasaki-flavored modern campus. In retrospect [[where hindsight is always 20/20), that actually resulted in the construction of buildings that were more significant than what they replaced.

[Danny]

One the Detroit City Council makes the Cass and Ferry Block a historic area. Mr. Schaefer's Campus Village supercondos will never happen. He just have to find another vacant or city owned lot to build his homes for Wayne State Students.

[DetroitZack]

I went out and took some pictures of the apartment buildings in discussion here. But since no one knows exactly which buildings are in danger some of these we may not have to worry about.

[48202]

That, of course, assumes that the tax credits can be sold [[they are only valuable to people and entities that actually make money).

Huggybear, you are neglecting the possibility that the developer may earn a profit and have a tax liability – in which case the tax credits don’t have to be sold to be valuable.

I’m surprised that no-one has mentioned Joni Mitchell’s connection with the Verona…

http://www.hourdetroit.com/Hour-Detr...ties-Folklore/

[Gistok]

As some here have mentioned WSU has not been the best preservationist in Midtown.

In fact its initial ignorance of preservation is what started the formation of Preservation Wayne back in 1975. WSU wanted to tear down the Queen Anne style house of WSU's first president... the David Mackenzie House... back around 1975. They wanted to replace the historic house on Cass just south of the Hillberry Theatre with a storm drain!

Well the house was saved and restored, PW was formed, and the rest is history...

But WSU still tore down some very nice Midtown buildings, including the historic [[on the National Register) Gleaners Building on Woodward... FOR A PARKING LOT!!!....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/71288712@N00/631739647/

Although WSU did restore their iconic Old Main structure.... they added to it an addition that is one of the worst abominations of all time... that in no way relates to the original structure and its' later sympathetic additions [[see 1st pic below, this is an old Flybydon pic).

Another loss to the WSU campus was the historic tall building that contained the WSU professors offices... David Mackenzie Hall. It was one of the largest buildings Midtown ever had. It was an enormous brown brick building with huge hip roof overhangs, a leviathan on Cass Ave., just north of Warren... facing Putnam. It had a Pewabic tile lobby, and most of the main floor was the old WSU Bookstore. However, the floors above contained proffessor offices that were the size of Monks cubicles. Sadly it too was pounded to rubble... and attached is the best pic of it I could find. I believe it was razed in the 1980s for a parking structure [[IIRC).

So I believe that the UCCA has lost so much of its' historic fabric over the last 30 years, that they don't want to lose more of their historic area.