Religion directly related to crime

[rb336]

Quote: "and we have the highest crime rate of any economically developed country."

Rb, it's all these darn church go-ers. Just looting and killing. Rather, good upstanding folks that marry once and for good, raising their kids in a positive environment, instilling values. Yes, we must stop this at once. You show me an ill in society and it can be traced back to non-believers, guaranteed.

that is, perhaps, the biggest load of rubbish you have yet stated. Show me ONE societal ill that can be traced to "non-believers"

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Show me ONE societal ill that can be traced to "non-believers""

You can't be serious..

[Detroitej72]

The problem with debates like this is atheists are just as blind and passionate about their choice of faith,[[or lack of) and both sides get personal with attacks and no common ground is ever reached.

The real problem is not religion, but rather power. People have used religion as a source of power and control over the masses all through history. Contrary to popular belief, religion has been used to control the masses long before Christianity was formed.

There have been plenty of studies that confirm power is the root of all the world's ills. Just look at some of the examples stated above. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, all were atheists and all were just as brutal as the Crusades, Inquisition, Bin Ladin, etc. The common link was power over the masses, and people who seek power will use whatever means necessary to obtain their goals.

Most folks on both sides of the argument will choose to ignore these realities, but that doesn't change the facts.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "The real problem is not religion,"

No, the real problem is lack of faith in God. This country is turning it's back on God, it is going to fail as a result. Hide and watch. Like children that take over the family business, just a matter of time.

[Zacha341]

Very well stated! The argument is usually too templated for any any "common ground". Some will choose not to respond or adapt to alternative views or new information...

I too pointed out the historical record earlier referencing the fuzzy and warm treatment mankind suffered under the non-religious types such as Milosevic, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. You need not have to be a history scholar to know this. Just do some basic research and the information stands before you.

Indeed as you state history reflects MANY PORTALS of mans inhumanity to man, justified therein.... based often on a narcissistic distortion of a charismatic "leader" [[who could not be effectively critiqued or evaluated) bent on control for ultimate power!

A leader with an insular support system using whatever means to achieve autocracy [[control): religious or secular.

The problem with debates like this is atheists are just as blind and passionate about their choice of faith,[[or lack of) and both sides get personal with attacks and no common ground is ever reached.

The real problem is not religion, but rather power. People have used religion as a source of power and control over the masses all through history. Contrary to popular belief, religion has been used to control the masses long before Christianity was formed.

There have been plenty of studies that confirm power is the root of all the world's ills. Just look at some of the examples stated above. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, all were atheists and all were just as brutal as the Crusades, Inquisition, Bin Ladin, etc. The common link was power over the masses, and people who seek power will use whatever means necessary to obtain their goals.

Most folks on both sides of the argument will choose to ignore these realities, but that doesn't change the facts.

[rb336]

Quote: "Show me ONE societal ill that can be traced to "non-believers""

You can't be serious..

cop out...

No, the real problem is lack of faith in God. This country is turning it's back on God, it is going to fail as a result. Hide and watch. Like children that take over the family business, just a matter of time.

if what you say is true, then one would expect the least religious countries to be hot beds of social decay and corruption. they haven't failed as societies, quite the opposite. Empires fall for a number of reasons, but common to all is a certain level of hubris - the "not invented here" mentality that keeps them longing for "good old days" that never existed and makes them resistent to change

[rb336]

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, all were atheists and all were just as brutal as the Crusades, Inquisition, Bin Ladin, etc.

No serious historian believes Hitler was an atheist. he was a cathoic boy till the end, and, in fact, it was catholic doctrine that sowed the seeds of the holocaust.
see, for example, Jonathan Sperber Central European History, Vol. 27, No. 3
I can pull together an extensive bibliography on the subject, if you like

[Zacha341]

Did anyone say Hitler was an atheist?? Ironically, many dictators were "theist" of the most high. Enshrining themselves as god.... indoctrinating the willing masses to their theology. Their inner circle or yes-men and women their apostles. Forcing subjugation to those less willing to adhere.

Hitlers philosophy and world view at the end was indeed a hodge-podge of ideologies, mainly derived from the secular view of man ala existentialism... Though he did have a Catholic background, in the end it was so distorted and out of bounds; thus his self-indulged, self-deification - yet self-effacing personality thing going which in part spun the whole dictatorship.

Perhaps in his mind he was a good Catholic "boy" as you put it. But he shot well past the run-way of the Catholic doctrine, even from the point of view of actual or distorted take on that doctrine.

And the whole nazi view of man being of "blood and soil" is a world view and philosophical construct born of secularism humanism, that will ride on the back of religion as needed.

No serious historian believes Hitler was an atheist. he was a cathoic boy till the end, and, in fact, it was catholic doctrine that sowed the seeds of the holocaust.
see, for example, Jonathan Sperber Central European History, Vol. 27, No. 3
I can pull together an extensive bibliography on the subject, if you like

[Detroitej72]

No serious historian believes Hitler was an atheist. he was a cathoic boy till the end, and, in fact, it was catholic doctrine that sowed the seeds of the holocaust.
see, for example, Jonathan Sperber Central European History, Vol. 27, No. 3
I can pull together an extensive bibliography on the subject, if you like

Hitler was not Catholic, in fact he had many priests killed, Church's destroyed and those of the faith persecuted. There is plenty of evidence to support that, and you have seen it in previous post, you just choose to ignore it because of your bias toward the religion.

[Meddle]

No, the real problem is lack of faith in God.

Poppycock. It's the religious freaks that are causing the problems. Think about the various cults and sects that have committed violent acts, or those that have set bombs claiming to be 'doing God's work'.

Non-believers are generally more tolerant of others. Bible thumpers take the position, 'do as I say, or else!!'.

[Pam]

Quote: "and we have the highest crime rate of any economically developed country."

Rb, it's all these darn church go-ers. Just looting and killing. Rather, good upstanding folks that marry once and for good, raising their kids in a positive environment, instilling values. Yes, we must stop this at once. You show me an ill in society and it can be traced back to non-believers, guaranteed.

Where's that wife and kids of yours again? You never mention them.

I was raised in a non-religious family and yet I still have values. Go figure.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Where's that wife and kids of yours again? You never mention them."

Now you're just being nosy.

[Detroitej72]

Poppycock. It's the religious freaks that are causing the problems. Think about the various cults and sects that have committed violent acts, or those that have set bombs claiming to be 'doing God's work'.

Non-believers are generally more tolerant of others. Bible thumpers take the position, 'do as I say, or else!!'.

So, professor, of what religion were Pol Pot, Stalin, Chairman Mao, Lenin, Kim Jong Il, Kim Il Song, Ghangas Khan, et, el following when they raped and killed the millions?

Why, I think they were all guilty of the religion of power over the masses!

Like I said earlier, and anyone who has studied history knows, its power that causes the root of all evil, plain and simple.

[oladub]

Sometimes the Amish in my area get into trouble though for not taking out a burning or building permit. They have sort of a contempt for permits. I guess that could be taken as proof that religion leads to crime.

One of their kids ran off and joined the Air Force where he was educated and became a jet fighter pilot. Needless to say, he was shunned for a number of years. The Amish, who are pacifists, do not approve of such behavior. From their perspective, killings by gang members and the military are indistinguishable.

Lucky for them, no authorities come around keeping track of child labor. Then they would all be in trouble.

[rb336]

Hitler was not Catholic, in fact he had many priests killed, Church's destroyed and those of the faith persecuted. There is plenty of evidence to support that, and you have seen it in previous post, you just choose to ignore it because of your bias toward the religion.

sorry, hitler was till the day he died. The catholic church supported the fascists. JPII beatified over 400 catholic priests who served in italy, germany and spain during the rise of fascism. how many were outspoken backers of the fascists? almost ALL of them. how many stood up against the Nazis? 1

[gibran]

Priests and Pastors Died for Their Beliefs.

Hitler wanted not only to conquer all of Europe, but Hitler also wanted to create a new religion and to replace Jesus Christ as a person to be worshipped. Hitler expected his followers to worship the Nazi ideology. Since Catholic priests and Christian pastors were often influential leaders in their community, they were sought out by the Nazis very early. Thousands of Catholic priests and Christian pastors were forced into concentration camps. A special barracks was set up at Dachau, the camp near Munich, Germany, for clergymen. A few survived; some were executed, but most were allowed to die slowly of starvation or disease. Google search question: how many priests were killed by hitler...

[Detroitej72]

Hitler was a Catholic boy till the end, and, in fact, it was catholic doctrine that sowed the seeds of the holocaust.

Rb, usually I am usually in agreement with you politically, but, sad to say now, you are wrong.

Hitler, as most historian's believe, was far from that, in fact, if you read most books, you'd know he most priests and seminarian's killed because they were a threat to his power.

The late Pope John Paul II, as a seminary student, was forced to literally hide underground. In fact, there is a well known story of his youth when he hide in the basement of a friends' home, praying to Blessed Mother Mary all the while the Nazi's searched the place.

From that time on, PJP II held a deep respect and regard for Blessed Mother, and Jewish people, and it was proved by his actions though out his Papacy.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Non-believers are generally more tolerant of others."

They are? Even here on this forum, and thread, there is a regurgitating group of trolls that roam through the threads claiming to be Atheist and taking an unprovoked swipe at anyone who may differ in belief from them. They are no better than idiots at a TeaParty rally. More tolerant of others? You must be joking.

Hitler a Christian? how stupid and tired. You folks will figure it out eventually. Maybe not.

[Danny]

Religion and crime is non-sequitur and it does not equate to mankind's problems. Mankind commit crimes based on ' FREE WILL' and choice either with the reasons of 'why' or 'no why.'

Religion is just a belief system structed by the supreme being and its words passed on to the generations of man.

[rb336]

Yes, Hitler was Catholic. "We have not only brought thousands of priests back into the Church, but to millions of respectable people we have restored their faith in their religion and their priests" [[Hitler's New Year Message of January 1, 1934)
and yes, the anti-jewish bent of the fascists was taken straight out of the Catholic Church

[rb336]

Rb, usually I am usually in agreement with you politically, but, sad to say now, you are wrong.

Hitler, as most historian's believe, was far from that, in fact, if you read most books, you'd know he most priests and seminarian's killed because they were a threat to his power.

The late Pope John Paul II, as a seminary student, was forced to literally hide underground. In fact, there is a well known story of his youth when he hide in the basement of a friends' home, praying to Blessed Mother Mary all the while the Nazi's searched the place.

From that time on, PJP II held a deep respect and regard for Blessed Mother, and Jewish people, and it was proved by his actions though out his Papacy.

Which, of course, explains why he has beatified 100s of facists to only one who opposed them

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "the anti-jewish bent of the fascists was taken straight out of the Catholic Church"

Are you suggesting, Catholicism is responsible for the holocaust? Man this just keeps getting more bizarre.

[rb336]

Quote: "the anti-jewish bent of the fascists was taken straight out of the Catholic Church"

Are you suggesting, Catholicism is responsible for the holocaust? Man this just keeps getting more bizarre.

take a look at how the catholic church has portrayed Jews throughout history - up to and including during the rise of fascism. No, I didn't say "Catholicism is responsible for the holocaust." I said the fascists took their anti-semitism straight out of Catholic doctrine [[and, yes, Lutheran doctrine as well, just read Martin Luther's "Jews and their Lies" sometime) and that is true

[Detroitej72]

The real problem is not religion, but rather power. People have used religion as a source of power and control over the masses all through history. Contrary to popular belief, religion has been used to control the masses long before Christianity was formed.

Interesting that my original point is being completely ignored. I guess some automatically will slam religion and mock those of faith at any chance.

And I've noticed that many of the same folks who defend Islam as being mostly peaceful,[[justified) are the same ones who paint all Christian's as a bunch of hate filled fanatics. Why the double standard?

It seems when many proclaim themselves as atheists, they simply mean they are anti-Christian.

[rb336]

Originally Posted by Detroitej72
The real problem is not religion, but rather power. People have used religion as a source of power and control over the masses all through history. Contrary to popular belief, religion has been used to control the masses long before Christianity was formed.

Interesting that my original point is being completely ignored. I guess some automatically will slam religion and mock those of faith at any chance.

most atheists and agnostics don't limit that to christianity. it is, however, very clear that monotheistic religions are far less tolerant of other religions than the animists or pantheistic religions. Hell, the romans exempted Jews [[and Christians) from having to participate in festivals honoring the divinity of caesar. It was when the Christians started actively disrupting the festivals that they drew own the wrath of the Romans.

And I've noticed that many of the same folks who defend Islam as being mostly peaceful,[[justified) are the same ones who paint all Christian's as a bunch of hate filled fanatics. Why the double standard? It seems when many proclaim themselves as atheists, they simply mean they are anti-Christian.

which folk?