M1 Rail has a website

[Bearinabox]

This is sad, but probably true.

"People won't use it if it is a bus. People want rail."

On one of these rail threads a few weeks ago, someone stated that M1 rail should save a couple millions [[maybe tens of millions) and just run nice, modern, clean buses instead of building a train, and build really beautiful modern bus stops that would look and feel just like a light rail stop.

Think of something like this running up and down Woodward.


Would people ride it then? Or is there some sort of stigma associated with something on wheels instead of rails?

Aaaand here we go again.

[ghettopalmetto]

This is sad, but probably true.

"People won't use it if it is a bus. People want rail."

On one of these rail threads a few weeks ago, someone stated that M1 rail should save a couple millions [[maybe tens of millions) and just run nice, modern, clean buses instead of building a train, and build really beautiful modern bus stops that would look and feel just like a light rail stop.

Yes, a sexy paint job will definitely eliminate those bone-jarring potholes that buses are known to uncover.

[Gsgeorge]

With regard to all the employees of these places... great someone works in New Center... but they live in Novi.

Just living or working near Woodard doesn't really work around here because it rarely means you do both.

What if said people want to grab lunch with a client downtown? Or go to a neighboring office for a meeting? Just because they happen to live in Novi does not mean they won't use the line. They still spend 6-10 hours in the city and might run errands, buy lunch, etc. in the city.

Basically your scenario would allow for the thing to be shut from 9-5 M-f on non game days. What about sundays? Will it run for Lions games? As this is Detroit, I'd bet not.

Please. I think if Ilitch, Penske, etc. are paying for this thing, they'll make sure it's running on game days. M1 has stated the goal is to run 7 days a week. And the system can still serve multiple functions. It can move around residents AND at the same time shuttle visitors & suburbanites.... what a concept.

IF we had a current system not run by incompetents, "precious jewel" protectors, or felons, the system of buses would accomplish this task. Any other major city doesn't require a light rail system to get it's people to use public transport to go three blocks on a game day. Counter to what everyone around here believes, Chicago has a shitload of buses and the poors arent the only ones who ride them

I can't disagree with you about the system being run by a reserved & untrusting 'old guard'. But Chicago has the advantage of having a really extensive rail system that people are used to riding, even suburbanites. The attitude towards transit out there is, as a result, way more accepting -- in other words, people might think busses suck, but they're still willing to ride them, because they're used to riding rail. This is an additional reason to install the light rail--if people use the rail, they become more open to using other transit options in the city, especially when they see connections from the main line leading to other attractions [[improved bus stops, newer busses, and better signage would be a wise ancillary investment for DDOT & M1 partners -- they should be pursuing these investments now, but of course, bus service has been reduced). Love the catch 22 here. I think cutting bus service was unwise. A healthy transit system is one that offers both busses & rail. In this sense I absolutely agree with you. But the other half of the process is going to be reintroducing transit as a perfectly reasonable alternative to automobiles to the city residents & suburbanites. No one is telling you to ditch the car. Park & ride.

Then why are the suburbanites being asked to pay for the thing in the name of regionalism if they are clearly not going to be the real target audience?

where is the money coming from again? Last I checked the initial $125 is funded by private stakeholders & TIGER funds. The second phase is funded my matching federal grants & city money.

I don't disagree, lets just make the stops more than a block apart and maybe be a little more ambitious than a plan that takes us from downtown to grand blvd.

Sure -- but I really think the only contentious point of the line is the stretch between I-75 and the river. I can see one of these stops being ditched -- River, Campus Martius, Foxtown would be a reasonable alternative to what is currently proposed.

[bailey]

the general theme of a lot of the posts on this topic seems to me to boil down to "if we can't do what I think would be a perfect transit line, let's not do anything at all". People who work based on that thesis never accomplish anything.

No, that is not the general theme. The theme is we already have a stupid friggen amusement park ride/parking shuttle masquerading as "mass transit"...lets not repeat the mistake in name of having "something". Ok kids...keep your hands and arms inside the tram at all times... remember you're parked in "Mickey Mouse Section 2"! And don't forget, just so you dont have to actually walk anywhere, there is a stop at every corner for your ease and comfort!.

M1 Rail is not perfect. M1 Rail + DTOGS is better than M1 Rail but still not perfect. M1 Rail + DTOGS + extend it to Royal Oak or Birmingham is even better but still not perfect.
What each system is, is an improvement over what we have, and moves us incrementally closer to a real transit system.

Let's got back and dig up some 25 yr old quotes about the PM. I bet there are one or three that are indistinguishable from this statement. Is this a 60 yr development plan to be able to ride light rail from Detroit to Birmingham? IIRC we were supposed to be zipping up and down woodard on a fancy new train by 2008. Now it's 2013....IF all the the stars align. Then some undefined future time we MIGHT get all the way to 8 mile.

Now to address a couple of points. Why can't it be built all at once? Because nobody has the money. Why did DTOGS stop south of Eight Mile? Because DDOT doesn't serve Ferndale or Royal Oak, and Oakland County's government has not shown the least bit of interest in improved transit.

Why does Oakland County get veto power? Detroit allegedly has the two of the longest serving representatives in the history of Congress. Not to mention the Congressmommny...oh wait, she's pulled her support for this in favor of high speed rail...scratch that.. Anyway, Michigan also has a very senior Senator. Fox news keeps telling me that all this seniority automatically mean lots of Pork and earmarks which is why we need national term limits and line item vetos.. Detroit isn't drowning in transit money you say? Gosh, that's weird. I wonder why? I mean we also have a two term Democrat governor that allegedly has the ear of the current presidential administration and is all about cool cites. Are you saying L Brooks Patterson is more powerful than all these people? Brooksie is standing athwart Woodward and single handedly stopping any incursion into his County? Well, golly someone should do something about that.

Why does M1 Rail have so many stops? Because that is what the people who are paying for it want. If you think there should be five stops instead of twelve - and I disagree with you in that case - toss in twenty or thirty million dollars, get a seat on the board, and make your proposal.

By all means... this is Detroit after all. Those who have the gold make the rules and Detroit should take what it can get, no matter how half assed. But really, isn't that how Detroit got the PM in the first place?

[English]

Why does every single thread about progress and solutions dissolve into squabbling and negativity?

Oh, wait. This is metro Detroit. We pride ourselves on doing nothing, accepting the status quo, shortsightedness, and pessimism. I mean, if we couldn't b*tch about everything, we wouldn't be Detroit!

Optimism is for those loser cities, like Charlotte and Portland and Seattle. Suckers!

[bailey]

Why does every single thread about progress and solutions dissolve into squabbling and negativity?

Oh, wait. This is metro Detroit. We pride ourselves on doing nothing, accepting the status quo, shortsightedness, and pessimism. I mean, if we couldn't b*tch about everything, we wouldn't be Detroit!

No, this is metro detroit; where we pride ourselves on doing what is easy regardless of merit, because doing otherwise is too damn hard.

Detroit and SeM need real, viable and coherent mass transit if it wants to be anything other than the desolate, rust belt, has been, backwater, cesspool it has become. It does not need a vanity project.

[Hypestyles]

there should be next-generation buses developed as well as the rail efforts.. dedicated lanes, etc. But the only way for it to work long term is to have a merged, single bus system for the city and suburbs.. all this drama between DDOT and Smart must stop.. dissolve them both..

[English]

No, this is metro detroit; where we pride ourselves on doing what is easy regardless of merit, because doing otherwise is too damn hard.

Getting light rail here has been hard. In other places, like Charlotte, it is a no-brainer.

Detroit and SeM need real, viable and coherent mass transit if it wants to be anything other than the desolate, rust belt, has been, backwater, cesspool it has become. It does not need a vanity project.

Actually, it is the shortsightedness and the endless squabbling of the political and business leadership of this region that has turned the Detroit METRO into a desolate, rust belt, has been, backwater cesspool. However, we will not always be that way, despite the fantasies of sick people who get off on Detroit-in-despair. The phoenix city will rise from the ashes.

These will be the adults of the first half of the 21st century:

Rebel Without a Car?
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/oct...ness/fi-rebel9

Study: Millennials Have Less Interest in Cars
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...t-in-cars.html

Detroit needs to attract young people and immigrants if it is going to ever resurrect itself. A viable transportation system will not build itself precisely because of all the nagging naysayers. It has to be built in stages. The fact that the first phase is being built during a recession shows a kind of vision and optimism that we haven't seen since FDR's New Deal projects.

[Russix]

This is sad, but probably true.

"People won't use it if it is a bus. People want rail."

On one of these rail threads a few weeks ago, someone stated that M1 rail should save a couple millions [[maybe tens of millions) and just run nice, modern, clean buses instead of building a train, and build really beautiful modern bus stops that would look and feel just like a light rail stop.

Think of something like this running up and down Woodward.


Would people ride it then? Or is there some sort of stigma associated with something on wheels instead of rails?

You should always build a connection to your circulator, before you build your circulator. A connection can be very successful on its own. Say for example, instead of the People Mover in a circle downtown, something in someway had been built between downtown and metro airport, I guarantee it would not have the 2.5% utilization the DPM has. Unless your hosting a Super Bowl, the majority of people are going to drive downtown because there is no convenient connection. Once they’ve driven downtown, it doesn’t matter if you have the most advanced urban rapid transit circulator system in the world [[which incidentally the DPM is) their not going to use, they don’t need it, they brought their car.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Since the many are broke, the few rule.

[mogo]

Gotta see how other folks are adjusting their driving habits to sharing the road way with trolleys:

Adjusting their driving habits, as in checking their mirrors before changing lanes, reading the signs and generally paying attention? These drivers are idiots. If these accidents didn't involve the streetcar, they would have happened with some other car.

[Warrenite84]

Transit built all at once or in phases; this same discussion was going on in the 1920's when Detroit considered a comprehensive subway system.

The prevailing argument then was essentially, "Build near me first", so said the build it all now crowd. They felt if it was built in phases, businesses near first phase lines would steal business from areas that didn't. Sound like the Detroit & Burbs argument today? The squabbling continued, and the 44 mile subway line plan was trimmed down to 22 miles, then less then the Great Depression killed it.

We as a Metro Area are not flush with cash like then so are choices are severely limited. We are fortunate to have philanthropists who are willing to dig deep into their own pockets and put a foundation under 'our castles in the sky'. Without the M-1 Rail project, that is all we would have. So no, it is not perfect and dressed up as if money was no object.

The "Me First" crowd have got to stop sniveling that they didn't get it their way.

The only area I can see a vested interest in is Metro funding for a comprehensive transit system. For the average Metro Detroiter to buy-in to more taxes in this 'Great Recession', will take a great deal of salesmanship from ALL who feel increased transit options will put us on a solid footing for increased employment and overall consumer transit cost savings.