Toyota's Woes

[Zacha341]

Yeah, I recall the oil sludging problem associated with the Lexus and stayed away from them... it was an issue with old Camry's as well but not all models....

at least this one is impossible for the national media to ignore. remember the oil sludging problem that was destroying Toyota and Lexus engines? hardly a word about it, even though it affected a couple million cars

[Zacha341]

Hmmn, yes and no, the parity for small to mid-size American vs. US cars was always even. It is now. But, for the late 80s and 90s Toyota's and Honda's longevity and durability factor was a pull... even when style was not [[some Toyota's aren't the greatest looking cars and you don't get the color range you get in US cars).

Sure, during those years there were recalls but not that many... and the engines where renowned to go over 200,000, easily. Good mechanics knew/ know this. Thus, that is the crucial reason you still see older early and mid 90's Toyata's [[especially) STILL on the road.

Toyota's on average [[not all) remain in the "used" car cycle longer, and retain their value longer. They often cycle thru 3 owners before the ultimate car grave yard end. Umm, I guess this new round of new Toyota's may not enjoy that long life...?

Uh-er, ah-hmmm -- before I get "ganked" for seeming pro Japanese cars at the expense of American models, in my immediate and distant family we drive mostly new and used Fords and Chevys and some used Japanese foreign cars as well.

Maybe this will finally kill the myth that Japanese cars are superior in quality. Toyota has been quietly issuing "silent recalls" for years.

[Zacha341]

Well stated...

So, this probably makes Ford the de facto leader in safety, quality and value... rather than having to wait for the news to catch up with the reality.

We can't really celebrate this, though, since people have been killed by these Toyota products and the company responded with a false claim of "floor mats" causing it until they were forced by law to stop production. They have no moral high ground and this is sad news. Sad news for many Toyota owners who now can not trust the vehicle in their driveway.

http://www.freep.com/article/2010012...CrMWuHn1wCY%3D

[PlymouthRes]

Fuck Toyota! They were also, as it isa noted above, ORDERED by the Government to stop production immediately. It was not something that they did voluntarily or by choice. It was a necessity.

Toyota, as many pointed out, has had its problems throughout the years and this is just another example. This is a direct result of mass production levels exceeding their ability to control quality. It was just a matter of time before volume affected them like the American auto makers. Its a matter of shear numbers.

If they had not arrogantly tried to hide this defect from the beginning, they wouldn't be getting the negative press. Period. Time for a taste of the bitter medicine.

They will certainly loose market share and the damage they have done to their credibility remains to be seen.

For the magnatude of this recall, think "Explorer tires". I believe that Ford is into that for a couple of BILLION alraedy and these suits could easily fetch those sums should the truth of their attempt to overlook this recall unfold.

The real question here is what will the domestics do to sieze the moment?

[Baselinepunk]

Well, many imports made their living off the backs of poor quality Big 3 mobiles, why can't the door swing the other way? Go U S A ! lol

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "The real question here is what will the domestics do to sieze the moment?"

It is an accelerator sticking issue, although widespread, not that big of a deal. They'll correct and move on, just as GM did some years ago over the same problem, and I believe it was more than once.

I'd like to see the domestics really capitalize on this, But I just don't see it having much effect either way.

People that are convinced the Asians do it better are not going to be easily swayed. It really goes beyond quality issue, it has everything to do with, their inability to secure a job making what an automaker does, and this is their way at getting back at them. They'll buy an foreign car if they have to push the fuckin' thing.

[luckycar]

It will be interesting to see what happens at the wholesale auctions.Toyotas are right there with Honda for bringing in top dollar.This is reflected in used car retail pricing.If people shy away from Toyotas,they will sit on dealers lots for "x" amount of days.Then off to the auctions they go.If all the financials and dealers send alot of Toyotas to auction,and they get little action,you will know that this has impacted Toyota in a huge way.They have built their rep on quality and resale value.Take this away and you have Kia,Yugo and mid-80s GM!

[Zacha341]

Yeah it will be a tough for a bit-no doubt. But the pre-1997 models will continue to sell via the lots, private sellers [[which many prefer), and continue to cycle and recycle on to new owners or family members thru their run time...

It will be interesting to see what happens at the wholesale auctions.Toyotas are right there with Honda for bringing in top dollar.This is reflected in used car retail pricing.If people shy away from Toyotas,they will sit on dealers lots for "x" amount of days.Then off to the auctions they go.If all the financials and dealers send alot of Toyotas to auction,and they get little action,you will know that this has impacted Toyota in a huge way.They have built their rep on quality and resale value.Take this away and you have Kia,Yugo and mid-80s GM!

[Mikeg]

I am surprised that there has been absolutely no mention in the mainstream press or by Toyota that if a car exhibits a struck throttle, all one has to do is shift the transmission into neutral and apply the brakes to bring the car to a quick stop, after which the ignition can be safely turned off. Even just jamming the brakes will quickly slow the car down to a manageable speed and then the trans can be put into neutral and/or the ignition shut off. [source]

I would have no fears about driving a Toyota that has not yet been fixed under the recall. By not publicizing this information, owner fear will spread and further tarnish the Toyota brand and resale values.

[Retroit]

Are there caps on class action lawsuits against automakers in the states?

Heck no, not as long as the trial lawyers have the Democratic party in their back pocket. The question is: is there a cap on class action lawsuits against automakers in Japan? Or, if it is tried in the States, will there be any political repercussions of Americans suing foreigners?

[Thames]

I am surprised that there has been absolutely no mention in the mainstream press or by Toyota that if a car exhibits a struck throttle, all one has to do is shift the transmission into neutral and apply the brakes to bring the car to a quick stop, after which the ignition can be safely turned off. Even just jamming the brakes will quickly slow the car down to a manageable speed and then the trans can be put into neutral and/or the ignition shut off. [source]

I would have no fears about driving a Toyota that has not yet been fixed under the recall. By not publicizing this information, owner fear will spread and further tarnish the Toyota brand and resale values.

First hand accounts were saying that applying the brakes had no effect on the acceleration.

Toyota has had this problem for years and they kept blaming the floor mats even when there were no floor mats in the vehicle.

Customers were advised to remove the floor mats by Toyota. I've read several accounts where the mat was removed and the problem persisted.

Guess they can't ignore it or explain it away any longer.They could/should have addressed this as far back as 2002.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

That's what people get for buying those rice burners. "All that glitters ain't gold."

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Hmmn, yes and no, the parity for small to mid-size American vs. US cars was always even. It is now. But, for the late 80s and 90s Toyota's and Honda's longevity and durability factor was a pull... even when style was not [[some Toyota's aren't the greatest looking cars and you don't get the color range you get in US cars).

Sure, during those years there were recalls but not that many... and the engines where renowned to go over 200,000, easily. Good mechanics knew/ know this. Thus, that is the crucial reason you still see older early and mid 90's Toyata's [[especially) STILL on the road.

Toyota's on average [[not all) remain in the "used" car cycle longer, and retain their value longer. They often cycle thru 3 owners before the ultimate car grave yard end. Umm, I guess this new round of new Toyota's may not enjoy that long life...?

Uh-er, ah-hmmm -- before I get "ganked" for seeming pro Japanese cars at the expense of American models, in my immediate and distant family we drive mostly new and used Fords and Chevys and some used Japanese foreign cars as well.

The same can be said for Domestic cars as well. It's merely perception that Japanese cars are considered better. My Uncle has a 1981 Buick Park Avenue with over 260,000 miles on it, that runs like a sewing machine. Bought it brand new, the body is showing some wear, but it starts up every time. Sometimes it has more to do with how a person takes care of a car, as opposed to what make or what country it's built.

[Mikeg]

First hand accounts were saying that applying the brakes had no effect on the acceleration.

If that were true [[which I doubt), then Toyota has a brake design flaw that is just as serious as the accelerator problem.

Vehicle braking systems are designed so that with full brake pedal pressure, the car will not move at all when the throttle is fully depressed, even with the largest engine option installed that is available for that vehicle. Conversely, if the brakes are applied while the throttle continues to be fully depressed, the vehicle will come to a near stop, prevented from coming to a full stop only by brake fading caused by the hot brakes.

Often when brake failure is reported, it is because the panicked driver hits the accelerator instead of the brake pedal. Drivers should always rely on the neutral transmission setting to regain control of a "stuck" accelerator situation.

[Thames]

If that were true [[which I doubt), then Toyota has a brake design flaw that is just as serious as the accelerator problem.

Vehicle braking systems are designed so that with full brake pedal pressure, the car will not move at all when the throttle is fully depressed, even with the largest engine option installed that is available for that vehicle. Conversely, if the brakes are applied while the throttle continues to be fully depressed, the vehicle will come to a near stop, prevented from coming to a full stop only by brake fading caused by the hot brakes.

Often when brake failure is reported, it is because the panicked driver hits the accelerator instead of the brake pedal. Drivers should always rely on the neutral transmission setting to regain control of a "stuck" accelerator situation.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/video?id=7017760

[Sstashmoo]

Mikg, common sense advice - for you and I. Most drivers do not understand their vehicle well enough to do what you're saying. To officially suggest by any entity, whether it be the media or whomever, to perform such a risky failsafe technique would be leaving themselves wide open for a lawsuit, what about the panicked driver that confuses your advice and locks the steering column? Toyota should do more testing on their vehicles, anybody that owns one of these units in question should not drive it at all, until the problem is corrected. PERIOD. That is the advice that should be officially given - by Toyota. They suck.

And for the record, take your vehicle up to 70, then apply the accelerator fully, hold it and then try to stop it with the brakes... Has to do with inertia, RPM/Torque and heating of braking components. It will not slow to a safe speed as easily as you're saying.

[Johnnny5]

If that were true [[which I doubt), then Toyota has a brake design flaw that is just as serious as the accelerator problem.

Vehicle braking systems are designed so that with full brake pedal pressure, the car will not move at all when the throttle is fully depressed, even with the largest engine option installed that is available for that vehicle. Conversely, if the brakes are applied while the throttle continues to be fully depressed, the vehicle will come to a near stop, prevented from coming to a full stop only by brake fading caused by the hot brakes.

Often when brake failure is reported, it is because the panicked driver hits the accelerator instead of the brake pedal. Drivers should always rely on the neutral transmission setting to regain control of a "stuck" accelerator situation.

In the fatal crash that was recorded by 911 the driver was an off duty trooper for the California Highway patrol. Before the crash his passenger [[who dialed 911) told the operator that the brakes were being applied, but the car was still accelerating.

[lilpup]

This is much more a Toyota City topic, or perhaps an Indiana/Kentucky/Mississippi topic.

[firstandten]

Anybody know if the supplier is US based or a Japanese transplant. Thats who is going to reimburse Toyota for the cost of the recall. If it is a Japanese transplant the executives have probably already been sent back to Japan in disgrace.

Hopefully its not a US company

[econ expat]

If that were true [[which I doubt), then Toyota has a brake design flaw that is just as serious as the accelerator problem.

Vehicle braking systems are designed so that with full brake pedal pressure, the car will not move at all when the throttle is fully depressed, even with the largest engine option installed that is available for that vehicle. Conversely, if the brakes are applied while the throttle continues to be fully depressed, the vehicle will come to a near stop, prevented from coming to a full stop only by brake fading caused by the hot brakes.

Often when brake failure is reported, it is because the panicked driver hits the accelerator instead of the brake pedal. Drivers should always rely on the neutral transmission setting to regain control of a "stuck" accelerator situation.

I had a 1984 Olds Delta 88 about 1987. One day the throttle stuck on me at freeway speeds[[Cruise control would not turn off). Hard braking did not seem a good option with the car moving forward full throttle. I put the shifter in neutral and turned the key off. It did backfire- alot! And note- with the key off, there is no power brakes or steering.

Studied under the hood for a cause- I could see where the linkage worked loose and got caught on an adjacent part. Now I'm not a mechanic, but I did see the cause!

Sad- at that time I worked for a GM dealer. I pointed out the problem to the Service Manager. Being in the factory's pocket, he gave me some story that the problem was previous owner's poor workmanship.And I was just a trouble maker for implying a design problem.... AHEM- I saw a design flaw, and had to remove the linkage for fear of this happening again.Gee, I thought I might save some lives by pointing this out.

Surprise surprise.Less than a year later many more complaints to the government came in and a recall was announced.

[Zacha341]

Indeed a dangerous situation... you'd have to go to "nuetral" and apply the brakes, bringing down the engine rpms in addition to breaking. All of which would be hard to remember in panicked break situation, unless perhaps you've driven stick shifts as I have for years. Then that go to "neutral" response might be triggered faster. In any event I would not drive these recalled cars now so long as the problem persists... it must be fully resolved.

In the fatal crash that was recorded by 911 the driver was an off duty trooper for the California Highway patrol. Before the crash his passenger [[who dialed 911) told the operator that the brakes were being applied, but the car was still accelerating.

[Zacha341]

Well that's a point, I had a 91 little Ford Escort that went on forever it seemed [[212,000 miles) along with a Chevy Corsica I called my "die hard". But I still maintain the opinion that many early and mid 90's Toyota's are still in the used car cycle far outlasting many US cars in their similar class due to higher drive train durability. That's why the things are still seen on the road and still cycling thru to additional owners.

In any event I drive several car varieties, now I have both American [[another Ford product) and a Japanese foreign used in my household both will well over 150,000+ miles. Sometimes I get nasty looks driving the early 90's Camry. I think people think the old Cam I have is newer, because it is in great condition, thus the animosity. I understand how some people feel - some just do not want to "see" them no matter how old they are.

I know people who won't allow guests to park a foreign car in their driveways no matter how old or rather you purchased it used or not. That's their choice.

In any event I am sure even the die-hard Toyota enthusiasts are going think twice about buyinh these new Toyota's. The older ones may increase more in value behind this fiasco. If I were buying new I'd probably choose another Ford product.

The same can be said for Domestic cars as well. It's merely perception that Japanese cars are considered better. My Uncle has a 1981 Buick Park Avenue with over 260,000 miles on it, that runs like a sewing machine. Bought it brand new, the body is showing some wear, but it starts up every time. Sometimes it has more to do with how a person takes care of a car, as opposed to what make or what country it's built.

[Mikeg]

And for the record, take your vehicle up to 70, then apply the accelerator fully, hold it and then try to stop it with the brakes... Has to do with inertia, RPM/Torque and heating of braking components. It will not slow to a safe speed as easily as you're saying.

I did not advise doing that in my previous post specifically due to the brake fade issue. I wrote:

Drivers should always rely on the neutral transmission setting to regain control of a "stuck" accelerator situation.

I'm not the only one who's saying that- so did Consumer Reports after doing some testing. I provided the link to their report but since you missed it, here is the link and here are their conclusions:

So what should you do if you are put in such a situation? The answer is simple: Put the car in neutral. In each one of the cars we tested, we were able to easily nudge the gear lever into neutral and stop the car quickly. All modern engines have rev limiters that prevent the engine from over revving and damaging the engine. You can safely shut off the engine after you come to a stop. However, we do not advise shutting off the engine while still driving. We tried this with our Toyota Venza—as Toyota suggests—by holding down the start/stop button for three seconds. While this also allowed us to stop, we lost power steering and had trouble maneuvering the vehicle due to the extremely heavy steering.

I see no potential liability problem if the mainstream press and Toyota offered a reminder to the general public that in any event, power to the driving wheels can always be immediately stopped by slipping the transmission into neutral. What is so risky about that?

[East Detroit]

Drivers shouldn't have to be constantly ready to put their Toyota in neutral to not die.

They knew about this since 2004 and did nothing except try to blame the floormats when people started dying.

Even the idiots on the Today show said today that its a floor mat issue, so I guess the big lie is working for them.

[Searay215]

Awwww poor Toyota, we should take up a collection like we did for Haiti.....oh thats right we already did its called our Jobs at the Big 3.....Screw them.
And the problem is not the gas peddle....its a fly by wire system. Meaning there is only an electrical connection to the ECM [[Engine control module) so its is either that connection or a software/hardware problem with the ECM. GM and others have had problems with ECM's in the past and Delphi the maker was able to figure it out. I guess the Japanese can't or won't do that....and now they are burned. Awwww toooo bad....bite me Toyota.