Toyota's Woes

[lilpup]

I am in fact a loser-as I lost a family member to a flaming Focus. Thank you for your thoughtful condolences.

And again, visit the NHTSA site for your stats. Time for me to sign off.

FYI in case anyone thinks I'm being harsh, there are not and have not been any reports on the NHTSA site or elsewhere linking the NOT SILENT Ford recall years ago for Focus engine compartment fires to ANY fatalities.

[kryptonite]

Toyota definitely avoided this issue for a couple of years, there is no questioning it. And when the government would not relent Toyota did the "it's not the car it's the floormats" BS. Now that the computerized electronics are in question Toyota is really doing a Pollyanna song-and-dance routine.

Toyota does make excellent vehicles, there is no doubt of that. But it is interesting seeing such a smug, imperious corporation dealing with an obvious serious quality problem.

Can you imagine the response in Japan if one of the US automakers had a similar issue with one of the few US cars Japan allows to be sold in that country each year? Would their government be so accomodating?

[Sstashmoo]

Toyota flow chart of blame:

Floormat = Dumb lazy American drivers.
GasPedal sticking from debris = Dumb Americans driving through water.
Gas Pedal sticking = Sub standard American manufacturers fault.

They are clearly taking an anti-American stance on this. This is more than likely an intermittent electronics malfunction that is going to require extensive testing to pin point.

This is going to net this some really bad PR. These "by wire" systems should always have some sort of dual back up system, just as in aircraft surface control. My bet, is the fix will be a total retrofit of the accelerator operation. A simple cable and 86 the microprocessors. Of course, it will have an adverse effect on the fuel consumption. They wanted the US market share, they got it, and all that comes with it. The sometimes stone cold turret of the US media has clanked all guns in their direction, I'm not sure I'd be buying any of their stock right now...

[Hermod]

Toyota flow chart of blame:

Floormat = Dumb lazy American drivers.
GasPedal sticking from debris = Dumb Americans driving through water.
Gas Pedal sticking = Sub standard American manufacturers fault.

They are clearly taking an anti-American stance on this. This is more than likely an intermittent electronics malfunction that is going to require extensive testing to pin point.

This is going to net this some really bad PR. These "by wire" systems should always have some sort of dual back up system, just as in aircraft surface control. My bet, is the fix will be a total retrofit of the accelerator operation. A simple cable and 86 the microprocessors. Of course, it will have an adverse effect on the fuel consumption. They wanted the US market share, they got it, and all that comes with it. The sometimes stone cold turret of the US media has clanked all guns in their direction, I'm not sure I'd be buying any of their stock right now...

If it is a problem in the control module, it may well be that the problem only manifests itself when certain conditions are present [[e.g. several things happening simultaneously) just like when you have a "sneak circuit". Sometimes the real "failure mode" becomes devilishly hard to replicate and then track down the cause.

like:radio on

[ndavies]

Toyota flow chart of blame:

These "by wire" systems should always have some sort of dual back up system, just as in aircraft surface control. My bet, is the fix will be a total retrofit of the accelerator operation. A simple cable and 86 the microprocessors.

That's not going to happen. It would require a major redesign of the entire engine control strategy.

All major manufacturers have gone to throttle by wire. Not one of them has a backup mechanical system. The electronic systems are typically far more reliable than the mechanical systems they replace. They are designed with multiple redundant checks on the commanded throttle position. Modern cruise control systems cannot be used with mechanical throttle control cables.

Hybrid vehicles cannot be controlled by a mechanical throttle cable. The throttle plate has absolutely no connection to the speed the vehicle is supposed to be going. A throttle plate cannot control the amount of torque coming from the electric motors. An electronic throttle gives you far more degrees of freedom to control the speed and power of the engine.

[Fury13]

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo
"These 'by wire' systems should always have some sort of dual back up system, just as in aircraft surface control. My bet, is the fix will be a total retrofit of the accelerator operation. A simple cable and 86 the microprocessors."

That's not going to happen. It would require a major redesign of the entire engine control strategy.

All major manufacturers have gone to throttle by wire. Not one of them has a backup mechanical system. The electronic systems are typically far more reliable than the mechanical systems they replace...

Originally Posted by lilpup
"...spouting unsubstantiated anti-hype might work with the ignorant East and West coasters but it won't work here where people understand cars and technology."

Oops... !!!!

[babeeblumer]

FYI in case anyone thinks I'm being harsh, there are not and have not been any reports on the NHTSA site or elsewhere linking the NOT SILENT Ford recall years ago for Focus engine compartment fires to ANY fatalities.

You're not harsh- just presumptuous. A silent recall of fuel line issues [["repaired" 4 times over in this case) + numerous electrical issues and advisories = fire potential in the early model Ford Focus. Fire issues have occurred in Focus models not included in the recall to which you refer.

Do your homework:
Search NHTSA site for complaints/defects/ recalls for 2000-2004 Focus. Probably don't have the time to read the nearly 10000 records, but you WILL find deaths and critical fire injuries included. Keep in mind that those reports are minimized by the fact that deceased drivers cannot file their own complaint. NHTSA complaints are like mice- for every one you see there are a dozen more.

Focus Model Year 2000: 4895 complaints
2001: 2033
2002: 976
2003: 874
2004: 345

Trial and error, but they got the bugs out. Look hard enough and you'll find deaths and critical injuries.

Death lurks silently and comes suddenly. I'd rather be warned LOUD and clear that my vehicle is a potential death trap than get the silent treatment. Toyota has compromised their market share with this announcement. NHTSA has hopefully put pressure where needed to save lives.

[pffft]

Babee,

Three thousand of your words later, this is still true: Toyota did nothing on its own.

The government [[NHTSA) forced Toyota to take action on the sudden acceleration problem that caused deaths.

Left to its own devices, Toyota would still be blaming floor mats.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "That's not going to happen[[retrofitting to accelerator linkage). It would require a major redesign of the entire engine control strategy."

So? You cannot sell someone something dangerous and use the defense, oh that's just how it's designed to work. Especially when there is another type of system that has proved safe for many years.

If people keep complaining about unintended acceleration and fatalities are the result, Toyota will do what it is told, and like it. This ain't China yet. Their blatant almost refusal to acknowledge the problem should be speaking volumes to the NHTSA. Typical dumping of garbage on the American markets with zero accountability or responsibility. Now you know what they think of us and our laws.

Quote: "If it is a problem in the control module, it may well be that the problem only manifests itself when certain conditions are present [[e.g. several things happening simultaneously) just like when you have a "sneak circuit". Sometimes the real "failure mode" becomes devilishly hard to replicate and then track down the cause."

Right on.. And the reason Toyota has been trying to sweep this under the rug or "All-season floormat" and blame the US consumer or a US manufacturer whenever it is brought up. Nice folks..

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Look hard enough and you'll find deaths and critical injuries."

Quote: "Death lurks silently and comes suddenly."

This isn't a drama contest.

[East Detroit]

"Shortly after the accident the federal government recalled affected vehicles over a concern the floor mats are to blame. Toyota's short-term solution was to zip-tie the floor mats or remove them altogether.

Then, in December, a family traveling near Dallas was killed when their Toyota Avalon crashed into a pond. The floor mats? In the trunk."

http://jalopnik.com/5459053/timeline...call-nightmare

Timeline chart there also.

Sorry, Detroit haters, but you need to zip-tie and sell your Toyota stock.

[East Detroit]

"A joint venture partner of Ford Motor Co. said Sunday it has resumed making buses in China after determining that the gas pedal assembly doesn't have the same problem that forced a recall of millions of Toyota vehicles."

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=9712498

Respect to Ford for showing the proactive caution, even though unnecessary.

[pffft]

Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak's Prius accelerates suddenly...when his foot is not on the pedal at all. [[Also interesting that he couldn't get through to anybody at Toyota).

What happens if all the Hollywood Priuses accelerate at once? Carnage...movie sets shut down. No Huffington Post.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...,3057333.story

[babeeblumer]

Quote: "Look hard enough and you'll find deaths and critical injuries."

Quote: "Death lurks silently and comes suddenly."

This isn't a drama contest.

No drama intended. That 2000 Focus was the ideal economical transportation for my family. We trusted Ford, the dealership and the repairs that had been done [[14 recalls plus the silent stuff). It was just another day until my son and his friend burned to death in that car. Silent danger and sudden loss. Truth, not drama.

This is no shill- the accident happened 5 years ago. Read the complaints associated with fires associated with Focus' manufactured from 00-04, until they straightened it out. My concern has been the high mileage factor influencing fire in these problem plagued cars. The fires continue. I am relieved NHTSA is doing it's job with Toyota. NHTSA itself has it's own issues.

It's hard to stay cool when you loose a child. You guys though...you are downright cold.

If you think I'm verbose...trust me, there's far more that could be said.

Vote for mass transit.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "NHTSA complaints are like mice- for every one you see there are a dozen more."

If that is the case then Toyota must have a mountain of complaints that are hiding behind the baseboard eating cheese.

[lilpup]

No drama intended. That 2000 Focus was the ideal economical transportation for my family. We trusted Ford, the dealership and the repairs that had been done [[14 recalls plus the silent stuff). It was just another day until my son and his friend burned to death in that car. Silent danger and sudden loss. Truth, not drama.

This is no shill- the accident happened 5 years ago. Read the complaints associated with fires associated with Focus' manufactured from 00-04, until they straightened it out. My concern has been the high mileage factor influencing fire in these problem plagued cars. The fires continue. I am relieved NHTSA is doing it's job with Toyota. NHTSA itself has it's own issues.

It's hard to stay cool when you loose a child. You guys though...you are downright cold.

If you think I'm verbose...trust me, there's far more that could be said.

Vote for mass transit.

Provide an ODI ID number for the fatality you claim, or link to the relevant summary or documents, or even link to a mainstream media report of it.

There are ZERO fatality reports involving a fire among the NHTSA complaints for the model years 2001-2004 Focus.

[Gistok]

Babeeblumer,

No parent should ever have to go thru the horrific tragedy that you went thru... the loss of a child thru corporate neglect or indifference. Whether this happened via an auto defect, tainted baby's formula, imported toys or any other means.

What for others are mere gathered statistics... for you was a personal nightmare.

I don't think anyone here wants to make excuses for Ford or any other company. It's just that people do need to be made accountable. And for a long time domestic automakers were deemed the villian... and folks were looking elsewhere for their product. But as we now know there are no saints when it comes to these industries... and many who are posting here also have personal tragedies [[of sorts)... the loss of a job or a house, or relocation to an unfamiliar location far away from what they consider to be home.... based in many instances on "perception"... the perception that somehow what the domestic auto industry made was subpar to what is made elsewhere in the world.

In this debate there are no winners and losers.... we are all in some ways the losers....

The schadefreude shown on this thread towards Toyota should not be taken personally by you as an offense to your own personal tragedy with Ford. Statistics in and of themselves are just numbers... except for people like you... where your loss is more than just a number....

My heart goes out to you and your family, as well as all those who have tragically lost loved ones in the name of corporate neglect, criminal intent, or shoddy workmanship.

[lilpup]

Gistok, actors and PR people know the most effective lie is a warped truth.

[lilpup]

Schadenfreude bullshit. This goes well beyond that to outrage.

As Toyota Motor Corp. scrambles to contain its sudden-acceleration crisis, another potential blow to the automaker's credibility is lurking in the form of a former Toyota attorney who is accusing the automaker in federal court of concealing safety issues from the public.

A ruling expected soon in the suit could make public thousands of internal Toyota documents that show the company conspired to hide evidence in court, according to Dimitrios Biller, who defended Toyota in product liability cases until 2007.

Biller, of Pacific Palisades, alleged in a federal lawsuit filed last summer that the automaker has a long history of hiding and destroying evidence as part of a strategy orchestrated from company headquarters in Toyota City, Japan.


http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...231,full.story

[ndavies]

Quote: "That's not going to happen[[retrofitting to accelerator linkage). It would require a major redesign of the entire engine control strategy."

So? You cannot sell someone something dangerous and use the defense, oh that's just how it's designed to work. Especially when there is another type of system that has proved safe for many years.

If people keep complaining about unintended acceleration and fatalities are the result, Toyota will do what it is told, and like it. This ain't China yet. Their blatant almost refusal to acknowledge the problem should be speaking volumes to the NHTSA. Typical dumping of garbage on the American markets with zero accountability or responsibility. Now you know what they think of us and our laws.

Quote: "If it is a problem in the control module, it may well be that the problem only manifests itself when certain conditions are present [[e.g. several things happening simultaneously) just like when you have a "sneak circuit". Sometimes the real "failure mode" becomes devilishly hard to replicate and then track down the cause."

Right on.. And the reason Toyota has been trying to sweep this under the rug or "All-season floormat" and blame the US consumer or a US manufacturer whenever it is brought up. Nice folks..

I wasn't defending Toyota, I was just commmenting on your idea to put a mechanical system back in. Your proposal to put a mechanical system in would help price Toyota right out of the market. It would lead to an uncompetitive fuel economy numbers and a mechanical control is no longer feasible in the new technology vehicles.

Just because Toyota didn't get it right, doesn't mean the industry is going back to an outdated technology. Toyota is not going to give up on a system that delivers both huge increases in system preformance and cost savings just because it currently has an issue.

The recalled cars also cannot be retrofitted with a throttle cable without it becoming a major tear up of the vehicle.

These kinds of issues cannot be solved by further testing. You cannot test for all situations. The only way this defect will be found is through a complete detailed analysis of all the components in the system. The true root cause for the problem must be found.

[kryptonite]

I'm sure some of you heard the Fox news report this morning on Toyota's problems. The US government is already investigating electronic systems failure - Toyota is adamant the acceleration problem is not related to electronics.

Prius owners in Japan and the US are reporting brake problems.

Class action lawsuits have been filed against Toyota in Kenucky and in Canada.

Toyota must cooperate to a greater degree. Continuing their aloof approach will not do them well in the long run. No doubt if they do the right thing they will get through this because of their reputation for high quality. If they don't do the right things they just might suffer long-term.

[Toolbox]

WHAT YOU DRIVE DRIVES AMERICA!
OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN.

I hope the computer you are posting on the internet with is 100% made in the US and not just assembled here.

I hope all the clothes you are wearing are produced in the US with domesticaly woven fabric and fibers.

I hope you eat only US manufactured food with domesticaly sourced ingrediants.

STFU and GFY!

[East Detroit]

Sorry, Toyota/Toyoda apologists....

http://detnews.com/article/20100203/...ake-complaints

Now there's a brake problem too.

[Buy American]

I hope the computer you are posting on the internet with is 100% made in the US and not just assembled here.

I hope all the clothes you are wearing are produced in the US with domesticaly woven fabric and fibers.

I hope you eat only US manufactured food with domesticaly sourced ingrediants.

STFU and GFY!

I support the American automakers. I know that without them, Michigan and the USA would be in a whole lot of trouble. When you're out of a job, can't pay your bills, don't have affordable health care, can't put your kids through college, go to Japan or China and ask them to help you out. We already owe them tons of money, what's a little more for your expenses? At least I know where my bread is buttered, and that's not by buying foreign.
You don't like what I say....tough $hit!

WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!
OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN.

[Detroitej72]

Too bad this didn't come to light before the Cash for Clunkers program, it could have helped the Big 3 a little more. I wonder how many people bought Toyota's under that plan and now regret their decision.