Convince me not to go...

**Gsgeorge** · January-02-10, 11:53 AM

Tahleel, weather should never be a reason to move. Your first reasons should be jobs, family, and enjoyment. You can have a lot of fun in cold weather, it's just a matter of finding things to do. Cities like Montreal are not the best weather-wise, but if my industry were there I would move there in a heartbeat. Target an area where you can get a job and get one fast. If it's not Detroit, that's too bad, but just because somewhere has warm weather does not mean you should move there.

Also, you mention that Atlanta has the largest airport in the world and that's a reason to move there. Really? Airports are loud and intrusive. Having the largest aiport in the world is hardly something that will affect your day-to-day life. You should be looking at the city itself. Does it provide transit? Are there shops and services in the neighborhood you want to move to? Is your job or industry there? All of these things should be thought about first before thinking about the size of the airport.

**wolverine** · January-02-10, 12:29 PM

Make sure you at least attempt to find a job first before you move. Also as Gsgeorge mentioned, I wouldn't base your decisions so heavily on weather. Additionally your reasons for moving to these places seem vague and unrelated. "LA has the largest seaport" for example. Are you in that industry? I can understand being close to family is nice, but it's also is listed in every one of your choices. Why is it so important, will you be needing their help? I don't know your current situation, single, married, with kids? But it might not be bad to be distant from family for awhile.

I'd say broaden your options and at least start looking for a job in these places. I know plenty of people having a terrible time finding jobs in LA and Orlando in many different fields, which is a similar situation just about everywhere, so it's not like the economies of your choices stand out to me.

**Mikeg** · January-02-10, 12:38 PM

1/1/2010
10:12 PM
tahleel
Convince me not to go...
I will soon graduate... and I've been debating to move for the past year.

1/2/2010
12:29 PM
tahleel
I don't see a move in the immediate future, but in the next years.

Which is it? Or are you posting just to get stroked?

Most adults understand that employment trumps everything. Most college-educated adults understand how to write paragraphs that contain fewer uses of the words I/me/my than there are sentences.

My advice: follow mommy and daddy.

Retroit · January-02-10, 12:42 PM

tahleel, I really don't think we disagree. When I referred to "high school education" I presumed that would be understood as "a quality high school education", not a "blow-off high school education".

As for why should apprenticeship programs be implemented in high school instead of college, my question is "why wait?". Let's give kids the skills they need as soon as possible. I'm referring especially to those that are not college-bound and have no desire to stay in school to study Shakespeare when they see no relevance for it in their life. Give them something practical to work toward with some assurance that they will be able to find employment upon graduation from high school.

In Germany, they have a quite extensive program for high schoolers. It even involves partnerships with corporations who help ensure the relevancy of courses and provide internships. I think that in America we are really underutilizing our high school grads.

BTW, thank you for accomodating my threadjack.

**Detroit_uke** · January-02-10, 12:54 PM

Tahleel....go. You are young. Experience everything. If you don't like it - move back. Have no regrets. If anything - it will give you a point of reference. Good luck to you in whatever you decide to do!

**MJCMEX** · January-02-10, 01:01 PM

Hi.

I am new to this forum.

I spent the first 40 years of my life in Los Angeles.
The weather is not 60 to 80 all year long. That is a chamber of commerce fabrication.
It is year after year the smoggiest city in America, homes that go for $10,000 in Detroit go for $350,000 if you are lucky. [[This is basically a forclosure price)

It has many wonderful things, but LosAngeles is suffering from over population, polution, and now a weak economy. I am not sure about the rest of Calif. but if this was whrere you were thinking of going think long and hard about it.

Are you prepared for a 2 hour communte to go to work?

Also look up South Central Los Angeles. Study the crime rate, look for pictures etc.
I am not saying you will find the arson that is found in inner city Detroit, but you will find dangerous conditions.

I hope this helps you.

**EMG** · January-02-10, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by tahleel

That is the beauty of an area like that. It is thriving with many opportunities, and if the shoe doesn't fit, there's always another one to try out. I have a BS in Finance, and will complete my second BS in Accounting this semester. I've applied to several graduate programs. I've always had a job in Detroit, even in the worst of economies, I'm sure I can always find work over there.

Unless you're a skier or love snow, cold, ice, rain, and clouds for other reasons, there's only one reason for a person with those credentials to stay in Michigan, and that's the opportunity to make double or more the pay. The tradeoff for good weather is less money.

That said, it's a trade I made willingly and one I've never regretted. You see, what you have to remember is that making that extra Michigan money might allow you to save for retirement more quickly - BUT making the move and sacrificing the pay now allows you to ENJOY MORE OF YOUR LIFE RIGHT NOW [[unless you're a hermit who stays indoors and watches TV year 'round no matter what the weather).

I have a similar educational background to you, and moved to Arizona after being laid off from Chrysler. I found it next to impossible to get into the accounting field here - and that was in the 2001 economy, when presumably what we have today is even worse. Ultimately I wound up getting a second degree in a higher demand health care field. It doesn't pay what I made at Chrysler, but it is certainly enough to support a satisfactory lifestyle, But the most important part of all is that as a runner, bicyclist, and hiker, I can wake up on almost any day of the year and KNOW that I will be able to get out and do my activities without having to worry about getting rained on or frostbitten or shoveling snow or having a winter coat that's thick enough. [[It's almost impossible for a Michigander to fathom, but imagine, if you will, what it is like to just get dressed for a run or hike without even first looking out the window or listening to a weather forecast. I will never forget being at a meeting with my homeowner's association within a couple of months after moving in, when a party was being planned for a few months later. Thinking ahead, I suggested we plan for a "rain date" in case of bad weather [[a must in Michigan - but here in Arizona they all just laughed at me. Here we can almost just about KNOW it's going to be sunny!) After a month or two you'll wonder how you ever put up with the weather changing every five minutes. "Seasons" are great, but if you miss the snow you can always pop in a Christmas movie and if you miss the fall you can always buy some apple cider from Walmart and call up a youtube video of autumn leaves. Now - full disclosure - I am a heat nut. I am perfectly happy walking and running when it's 110 degrees - I just make sure to take lots of water with me. If you can't tolerate or don't like extreme heat, well, then, you'll be a prisoner to your climate-controlled house and June through September in Arizona would probably be just as unbearable to you as November through April in Michigan were to me.

The bottom line is it could well take you much longer to save up for retirement. You could very well wind up working for many more years than you originally planned. But the time between now and retirement is going to be of so much greater quality it will be well worth it. Being free of the Mushigan weather that takes away 60 percent or more of your potential leisure time is like adding that much more "retirement time" to your life - only you get it RIGHT NOW instead of having to wait until you're 67. Something to think about.

**tahleel** · January-02-10, 04:22 PM

Gsgeorge and wolverine. Cities that have busy and accessible airports and seaports can be significant for several reasons. If I were to start, for example an import/export business like my uncles have in Georgia and New York, having this framework in place is key. Besides starting a new business, an accessible airport/seaport are factors that companies look for when starting new ventures, and can lead to growth of a community [[and furthermore jobs) as new companies develop or expand into the areas. With that being said, I know its not THE most import factor, but still something to consider.

Public transportation is not an important factor for me. Although I have ridden the bus for many years of my life, I've owned my own car since I've been able to drive. I can always see myself owning some form of transportation and not relying on public transportation alone. Been there, done that!

As far as my status, I have never been married, nor do I have any kids. But when the time does come, I want to already have been settled in my community and not constantly move from place to place. This one move, will be the BIG move. After this move, I do not plan on moving anywhere else the rest of my life.

I will definitely apply for jobs before I do go. I won't jump in with my eyes closed! I just need to know which area best suites me before I start applying for jobs in cities that I would not like.

-Tahleel

**tahleel** · January-02-10, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by MJCMEX

Hi.

I am new to this forum.

I spent the first 40 years of my life in Los Angeles.
The weather is not 60 to 80 all year long. That is a chamber of commerce fabrication.
It is year after year the smoggiest city in America, homes that go for $10,000 in Detroit go for $350,000 if you are lucky. [[This is basically a forclosure price)

It has many wonderful things, but LosAngeles is suffering from over population, polution, and now a weak economy. I am not sure about the rest of Calif. but if this was whrere you were thinking of going think long and hard about it.

Are you prepared for a 2 hour communte to go to work?

Also look up South Central Los Angeles. Study the crime rate, look for pictures etc.
I am not saying you will find the arson that is found in inner city Detroit, but you will find dangerous conditions.

I hope this helps you.

I appreciate your insight and your experience from living in LA. I fell in love with the weather last November when I bundled up in my winter coat to fly out to L.A., only to wear shorts and flip-flops the next day! I understand that it might not be 60s-80s, but I do know that chances of extreme cold weather like we have here are nil.

I am also ready for the real estate prices. I WON'T be going there empty handed. I have quite a bit of property here in Michigan that I am ready to sell, even at a loss, to move else where. The older I get, the more I understand the concept "less is more." I'd rather have less of a living space, if I have to clean and maintain less. I'd rather work less or make less money, if I have more time to do the things I'd like to do.

One recurring ideology I see is that people are more worried about working than living. Are they living to work? Or working to live? I'd choose the latter.

As far as the areas I'm looking at, it's north western LA county or the San Fernando Valley region. I have family that live in Lake View Terrace, CA, and I loved it there. I am aware of the high crime of South Central LA, that's why I would like to stay away from that area.

The commute would be a change, but it is something I can adjust for. I've also read about the smog issues, but did not feel the difference when I was there. It may have been the time of year I went there. From the articles I've read, California cities flooded the list of top 10 polluted cities, but as I recalled, Detroit was 9th.

-Tahleel

**FlyByDon** · January-03-10, 12:52 PM

Go south young person with the ink not dry yet on two degrees..

Run and don't look back!

**iheartthed** · January-03-10, 01:55 PM

Sounds like you've already got one foot out the door. But it also sounds like you want someone to try to talk you out of it, so I'll try...

If warm weather is why you're leaving then I'd like to point out to you that at this very moment the temperature is 30 degrees Fahrenheit in Atlanta, GA. It is currently, 1:34pm EST and in all likelihood this will be the warmest part of the day. And the airport isn't really a seller since Detroit Metro is also one of the largest airports in the world [[albeit not as large as Hartsfield).

If you move choose Miami, the weather will probably be one of the few things that you do like about it. Despite being an extremely diverse place, I have heard that it lacks many of the cultural amenities that you would expect of a large city. [[One of my close friends who recently moved from there said that the Detroit area had much more of a "big city feel".)

As for L.A., it's clearly way more big city than Detroit. And if big cities are you thing then you will probably like it more than Detroit. But the only reason that L.A. is still growing [[like the other old industrial cities that are still growing: NYC and Chicago) is because of foreign immigration. California posted the highest count of domestic residents moving to other states in the country [[even more than Michigan).

And Raleigh... Didn't they just get socked by a huge blizzard a couple weeks ago? Also, the cultural amenities in that area don't rival Miami, let alone Detroit. It's not as racially diverse as the Detroit area. And if you want to travel, your flights will be more expensive considering they don't serve as a major airline hub.

But honestly, my advice is for you to experience living somewhere else. If returning to Detroit after you have left is in the cards for you, then it will happen.

MichMatters · January-03-10, 11:43 PM

Wait; is the question "convince me not to go..." or "convince [[aid me in) where I need to move to [[from Detroit)"?

**buckguy** · January-05-10, 09:31 PM

Atlanta...spent almost 8 years there. Winter is grey, damp, depressing [[Detroit w/o snow and with dampness which makes the temp feel colder than it really is). Every few years there's an ice storm that damages property, takes down trees, etc. and ties up everything. The traffic is impossible, the layout is confusing, the hospitality is a myth, the summers are miserable [[no one goes out if they can help it--heat, humidity, mosquitos). I call it "the city that doesn't work" and I'm not talking about city govt--passivity, laziness, lack of curiosity, it's difficult to get anything done. Culturally, a joke. The art museum gets a good traveling show every year, but has a lousy collection. The area has grown despite the declining quality of the employment base---good jobs like those in IT have vanished, new jobs pay less and companies relocating there have been those in decline [[NCR, Rubbermaid). The real estate market has had a big decline and the area is seriously losing its water. Racial climate is as bad as in any classic segregated northern city. It's a dull, unsustainable place, with a feudal social and economic structure. Basically, it encapsulates everything that's easy to mock in sunbelt cities.

Raleigh...nice town, but surrounded by strip malls, not close to the mountains or the water. Dull place. My friend who lived there used to drive to DC for fun.

LA....have gone there regularly for over 20 years, spent several months settling an estate several years ago. Winters are surprisingly dreary although they usually don't get into the "North Face" level of cold. Traffic is truly impossible. If you don't live and work in the same area, it's easy to spend hours in commute and rush hour now runs through most of the day. Trips to the beach and the mountains can be done, but will be a hassle unless you actually live near those places. Real estate remains expensive relative to Detroit. People tend to be superficial. A common complaint is the difficulty in making real friends and ecnounters with flakes. If you people watch, you notice a lot of unhapppy looking folks. The weather can't fix a screwed-up life, but people have migrated there with that expectation. San Diego is a little closer to being the SoCal dream, if that's what you want.

Miami...horrible racial climate. Anglos have never gotten over the migration of Hispanics. First, Cubans, now a more diverse group. You'll probably wind up is some characterless suburb in a crap house that can't make it through a hurricane.

For economics, DC [[where I live) has weathered the economy better than any other major city. If that's your concern, the the DC area cannot be beat. It's expensive to live here and you don't want to live far from where you work, but it has culture, it has access to other places [[mountains and bay are close; NYC is an easy trip by bus or train). The climate is mild, although it does does get windy and can get below freezing in winter. Lots of parks, good place for hiking, biking, just about anything outside. The city is alive and a real urban place. Much better place to live than Atlanta, which is an over-promoted joke.

Whatever you don't like about Detroit, there's plenty not to like about a lot of other places.

**jtf1972** · January-06-10, 01:52 AM

I moved to Florida when I was 18. Wanted to get into radio & it wasn't happening at home. I wasn't going to go work at a country station in a town with one traffic light that flashes & everybody has the same last name. So I went where I was at an R&B station and lived 1 mile from the ocean. It was great... then it hit winter and I found myself making snow balls out of the frost in my freezer. I actually like the change of season!

**kathy2trips** · January-06-10, 02:38 AM

Stay, and you'll never have to hear:
"You're not from here, are you?"

**DanFromDetroit** · January-06-10, 08:06 AM

I moved to downtown Raleigh NC two years ago - love it and have a great job in a field that isn't nearly as volatile as automotive. Just get ready to pay taxes through the roof on just about everything from higher sales to state income tax.. Don't get me started on the car registration costs either - it's way cheaper to have a car in the mitten, even with marginally cheaper insurance costs! One more word of advice - if possible have a job ready and get them to move you, if you just show up on your own without secured employment you'll be in the same boat as a bunch of other northerners on on the hook for moving costs.

/my $0.02

**kryptonite** · January-06-10, 08:39 AM

I personally love Atlanta but have only visited the city on weekends. My brother turned down two job offers there because he hated the traffic.

I have heard that L.A. traffic is hell also. DC I know is very bad.

I have spent some time in Miami and love the place. It is maturing into a much nicer city than it was in the 80's. They have a growing transit system, a booming waterfront, and some re-emerging neighborhoods. But I am not a Miami expert, I have only visited for a day here and a day there.

Atlanta does have fewer natural disasters than LA. The recent drought in the Southeast ended, that gave Atlanta officials a fit because their drinking water supply was dwindling. Plus the reservoir by Stone Mt. where much of their water comes from was just an unattractive giant brown lake when I went there 20+ years ago.

In my opinion Atlanta and Miami are two of the country's great cities and will continue to grow and prosper. Detroit's heydey was in the past and the city will stagnate like St. Louis, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Cincinnati, etc. Cities similar to Detroit will experience many successes but probably just as many failures. We all have the weather and the unions to our disadvantage and your average person views those as negatives.

Just some thoughts, follow your heart. You can most likely come back to Detroit some time if a new location does not appeal to you after some time.

**Hermod** · January-06-10, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Retroit

In Germany, they have a quite extensive program for high schoolers. It even involves partnerships with corporations who help ensure the relevancy of courses and provide internships. I think that in America we are really underutilizing our high school grads.

I agree with every thing you say about needing good vocational programs to include apprenticeships and internships in high school. A caveat is that in the German system, you get an examination somewheres around the 8th grade. Do well and you go into the university track in high school. Do poorly and you choose between various vocational tracks. It works with a single ethnic population. I am not sure how it would work with affirmative action, "test norming" and "cultural bias" claims in the examination.

**Hermod** · January-06-10, 09:04 AM

Go to the Washington, DC area and buy a condo or rent an apartment in Northern Virginia which is within walking distance of a Metro stop.

**tahleel** · January-22-10, 01:49 AM

Just got back from Florida. Flew to Ft. Lauderdale, and rented a car to drive out to Orlando and back. Stopped by Daytona Beach, Delray Beach, and West Palm Beach. It was a nice little trip. Sad to come back to cold and dreary. I missed the palm trees, but I'm happy to be home.

-Tahleel

**LeannaM** · January-22-10, 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by kryptonite

In my opinion Atlanta and Miami are two of the country's great cities and will continue to grow and prosper. Detroit's heydey was in the past and the city will stagnate like St. Louis, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Cincinnati, etc. Cities similar to Detroit will experience many successes but probably just as many failures. We all have the weather and the unions to our disadvantage and your average person views those as negatives.

Just some thoughts, follow your heart. You can most likely come back to Detroit some time if a new location does not appeal to you after some time.

St. Louis is bouncing back, I think. The population has kind of leveled off. And Downtown is growing. The city overall has some great neighborhoods and nice areas. The city schools aren't good, though. But I know people who live well there and really enjoy it.

I don't know as much about Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Cincinnati, though.

**NoHeartAnthony** · January-22-10, 02:44 AM

Without even reading the responses, the DIA > LACMA.

**rid0617** · January-22-10, 05:56 AM

I can comment on Orlando and Atlanta since I have lived there. Florida has a pile of problems. Extreme gang problems in Orlando. Homeowners cannot buy property insurance anymore due to hurricanes so majority are having to go through state assigned risk which is expensive. Low wages in Florida because everyone wants to move there for the sunshine. After a year there you will hate senior citizens. They walk around like everyone owes them something.

Atlanta has growing crime problem but nothing to the point of Detroit. High cost of living due to the high salaries of the area. Positives are super mass transit including MARTA the bus/train system. Plenty of things to do. Very positive fast paced area. If the cost of living was not so high we would go back to Atlanta because we miss it. Did 24 years with Atlanta Police and retired.

I currently live in South Carolina. If you don't mind religious fanatics, folks who think the civil war is still going on and they are winning, folks who want to keep things in the 1950s and wages not much above minimum wage you'll love the Carolinas. My personal opinion only......if they ever give the southeast an enema they will stick the tube in the Carolinas.

If you have to go anywhere I would recommend Atlanta. Anywhere in the south east will be much cheaper on insurance, taxes and license tags than you are used to.

**Baselinepunk** · January-22-10, 07:35 AM

Ah .... so much to say, so very little time to say it.

a) LA: You couldn't pay me enough to live in that hole. Sister just left that place after living there for many years and she was one of many driving U-Hauls outta town. Traffic is horrible, water is an issue, wildfires, people are obnoxious and rude, and there's a major fault line that runs right under downtown that's due.

b.) Raleigh, North Carolina: I like NC, but suggest Ashville. Hurricanes and mudslides. Over developed and over populated.

c.) Atlanta, Georgia: 2nd next to LA. Terrible traffic, lack of water, over populated and over developed. Bunch of flockers killed the southern feel of the joint.

d.) Orlando or Miami, Florida: Hurricanes, housing market is in the tank, lack of four seasons, trendy.

Perhaps look at something that is an up and comer, not something that's been there, done that.

BTW -- You should try as much as you can to stick around here. You're not compelled to, but you should try and make it work. Remember, once everyone runs outta water, we'll be sitting pretty with the National Guard at the boarder.

Retroit · January-22-10, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by rid0617

... folks who think the civil war is still going on and they are winning....if they ever give the southeast an enema they will stick the tube in the Carolinas.

Hilarious! [[Good thing my bladder wasn't full.)