Vigilante, hero, or killer?

Retroit · December-30-09, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by Novine

"And what should the criminal have done?"

The criminal is dead. Once he left the homeowners property, the homeowner had no legal right to shoot.

Let me ask you again: If the homeowner had not shot the criminal, what should the criminal have done? You [[and others) seem all too eager to criticize the homeowner for his actions, but what do you think the criminal should have done? Why has no one second-guessed his actions?

EastsideAl: What the hell is a 53 year old man doing out there robbing houses?

He's doing what every other "innocent" burglar in Detroit does. What has he got to lose? Homeowners will not shoot him, or at least they are not supposed to by DetroitYES! standards. The police will not come after him because they are too busy. The jury will not convict him because there is always a "reasonable doubt". And if he goes to prison, he gets 3 meals a day, free housing, free health care, free legal service, free entertainment, free security, etc. Hell, if I weren't so stupid working for a living, I'd probably burglarize houses too!

smudge pot · December-30-09, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

I call Bullshit.

Read 'em, and weep:

**xphillipjrx** · December-30-09, 06:43 PM

The updated story says the two offenders were in the back yard. Although I disagreed with Croff shooting the guy in the alley, I at least thought the thieves were inside Croff's house. It's unfortunate that he has to watch the guys get closer like Dawn of the Dead, but that's the law.

Croff would get just as many pats on the back in Texas, but a Texas D.A. would still charge a person in the same situation. He chased guys from his back yard and shot one dead in the alley. Cops bend over backwards to make it so the homeowner doesn't get charged. Did the dead guy take a step forward? Did he get shifty or maybe put his arms down quickly like he was reaching for something? There was no way for the cops to spin it.

Croff will probably plea-bargain to a lesser charge, but the sad thing is he will likely lose his right to legally own a firearm.

Retroit · December-30-09, 06:53 PM

[District Attorney Julie] Finocchio pushed [Roderick] Scott on why he sought to detain the people he saw going through cars.

"That's not your job, is it?" Finocchio asked.

"Yes," he replied.

"That is your job?" she asked again.

"As a citizen," he replied, "it's all our jobs."

[[source: http://www.democratandchronicle.com/...S01/912160345/ )

Exactly!..

**Patrick** · December-30-09, 06:59 PM

I wouldnt have shot him per se. I would have shot the ground near his feet and made him do the moonwalk and then post it in Youtube.

**Jimaz** · December-30-09, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Chuck_MI

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...02514885833865#

Thanks for that video, Chuck_MI. It was very educational. The second half is well worth watching too.

**softailrider** · December-30-09, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by xphillipjrx

The updated story says the two offenders were in the back yard. Although I disagreed with Croff shooting the guy in the alley, I at least thought the thieves were inside Croff's house. It's unfortunate that he has to watch the guys get closer like Dawn of the Dead, but that's the law.

Croff would get just as many pats on the back in Texas, but a Texas D.A. would still charge a person in the same situation. He chased guys from his back yard and shot one dead in the alley. Cops bend over backwards to make it so the homeowner doesn't get charged. Did the dead guy take a step forward? Did he get shifty or maybe put his arms down quickly like he was reaching for something? There was no way for the cops to spin it.

Croff will probably plea-bargain to a lesser charge, but the sad thing is he will likely lose his right to legally own a firearm.

Lose his right to own a firearm? That's the sad thing? Hey man, that's the least of his worries. The guy is going to do time in jail, probably quite a lot of time.

**unclefrank** · December-30-09, 07:40 PM

Then let him have it

**Zacha341** · December-30-09, 08:24 PM

Interesting point... yeah you do have to hold up in your home just like "dawn of the living dead" until the gouls are just about upon you before firing to have an open and shut case for lethal force.

Originally Posted by xphillipjrx

The updated story says the two offenders were in the back yard. Although I disagreed with Croff shooting the guy in the alley, I at least thought the thieves were inside Croff's house. It's unfortunate that he has to watch the guys get closer like Dawn of the Dead, but that's the law.

Croff would get just as many pats on the back in Texas, but a Texas D.A. would still charge a person in the same situation. He chased guys from his back yard and shot one dead in the alley. Cops bend over backwards to make it so the homeowner doesn't get charged. Did the dead guy take a step forward? Did he get shifty or maybe put his arms down quickly like he was reaching for something? There was no way for the cops to spin it.

Croff will probably plea-bargain to a lesser charge, but the sad thing is he will likely lose his right to legally own a firearm.

**xphillipjrx** · December-30-09, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by softailrider

Lose his right to own a firearm? That's the sad thing? Hey man, that's the least of his worries. The guy is going to do time in jail, probably quite a lot of time.

From the Freep: "The magistrate, Steve Lockhart, gave Croff a $40,000 cash bond. Though the homicide charge would normally carry no bond, Lockhart said he would 'take note of both an arguable defense claim … or an imperfect self-defense claim'.
Lockhart added the defense also could make a heat of passion argument".

I am only a TV lawyer-show watcher, but I would guess that Croff will get convicted of the stiffest charge one can get without going to prison. His lawyer should argue that he is not a threat to society. He will get a ton of probation and he better not so much as get a parking ticket. I hope his case goes viral and the NRA camp establishes a fund for his defense.

To paraphrase Chris Rock: I don't think he should go to prison for this, but if he does...I understand!

MichMatters · December-30-09, 08:58 PM

From Kym Worthy:

“All of the facts have not been reported,” Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy said today. “We have sound reasons for charging as we did in this case. All of the relevant evidence will be presented in court.”

It'd not at all be above her to simply be blowing smoke up the public's collective @ss, but it's been my thought from the beginning of posting this that to slap him with something as high as second degree murder, even initially, means there is probably something else about this that we don't know.

**R8RBOB** · December-30-09, 09:36 PM

There is nothing worse than to have someone steal you shit. You feel violated and it is a sick thing that just stick to you. I feel for dude because he kept being violated by these predators but he made the wrong move shooting the guy in cold blood. The law states that deadly force would apply only you and your love ones lives are in jeopardy. His life was not in jeopardy and he should have beat the shit out of the guy and left it at that. Wayne County got him dead to rights and the sad thing is that he went from being the victim to the accused and it ain't right but you can't go around shooting people down because they taunt you into it.

**LeannaM** · December-30-09, 10:00 PM

I can't fault him too much. 3 break-ins in a week is enough to make the calmest person snap. I can understand being especially frustrated if the police do not respond.

smudge pot · December-30-09, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by eno

And if the shooter in Detroit were white, what do you think the reaction would be?

Remember when the Arabs started mowing down foolish holdup punks? Remember the farcically-ironic "community" protests and demonstrations?

I'm like "Duh, what part of foolishness don't you get? Where were you when your kids needed you?"

And the "memorials". What we need here is less pageantry after-the-fact, and more parenting before-the-fact.

**softailrider** · December-31-09, 02:26 AM

You can't shoot somebody unless your life is in danger. Peroid, end of story. Taunting, yelling, saying bad things about your mama, being robbed previously, doesn't give you the right to shoot somebody. I thought everybody knew that.

**jtf1972** · December-31-09, 03:35 AM

This is a truly sad story. Sad in that a two lives are destroyed, one dead and one possibly facing a prison sentence that will do what? Rehabilitate him? I don't think anyone here is fearing this man living next door. Should he receive a medal? No. He killed a man cold blood. Detroit is a little safer with this man gone, but the true victim is the one out on bail.

Repeatedly being a victim of crime leaves you feeling helpless. In the last week he had come home twice and found that his home had been violated. Fortunately, I have not had that experience. Had a car stolen & a couple broken into, but never my home [[I like to have large dogs, so that helps thwart those who prefer easier targets.) When I lived on the west side I had a slightly lesser problem, as I repeatedly found tire tracks across my lawn. I kept wondering what the hell was happening, until one day I'm in my driveway and a guy pulls up the driveway, then turns left & punches it, using my lawn to make a turn around! I swear... at that moment if I had a gun I would have been running down the street shooting, hoping to catch that son-of-a-bitch in the back of the head. I did find myself running down the street chasing the car though, until I realized how foolish that I was. I then went to a store and bought the largest rocks I could find to put along the driveway [[would have put spikes in to flatten tires, but what if a kid was running & fell on one?) My point is that in the heat of the moment, when you already have built up fear, anger and emotions that are difficult to completely explain... things like this can happen.

I am not going to cry for the dead man. Although he was a human being who once was likely a smiling happy kid who told his mommy that he loved her, somewhere along the way he became someone who felt the rules didn't apply to him. It is entirely possible that he & his accomplice were targeting this man's home, seeing him come home wearing a security guard outfit they may have been searching for guns to steal. If they had found any he would have likely been found with a hole in his chest.

Worthy says there is more to the case, so if he had a history with this guy then he's done. If not, Marvin Gay, Sr. got 5 years probation for shooting his son in the back. I don't see how locking this guy up does any good at all, when the bed in Jackson could be used to house someone who would be out breaking into homes.

**janesback** · December-31-09, 07:53 AM

It was just on national news.......it was also on our local channel here in Texas

They really enjoyed code words to describe Detroits neighborhoods, like " isolated" and " desolate and "with such high crime rates in a city that ranks 67 in crime"

I imagine the owners frustration, too bad he just couldnt have dragged the scum back into his house and say that he was defending his life......
Jane

**janesback** · December-31-09, 07:59 AM

Im not an attorney, but if he pleads not guilty, do you think there would be at least one Detroiter who would be understanding to his dilemma and think, maybe, the guy had "temporary" insanity and would be found not guilty....if its a jury trial, the vote has to unanimous, so all it would take is just one juror who "understands"?
Jane

bartock · December-31-09, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by janesback

Im not an attorney, but if he pleads not guilty, do you think there would be at least one Detroiter who would be understanding to his dilemma and think, maybe, the guy had "temporary" insanity and would be found not guilty....if its a jury trial, the vote has to unanimous, so all it would take is just one juror who "understands"?
Jane

I'm no criminal attorney, but with a 2nd degree murder charge, and given the information known at this time, I'd take my chances that there would be juror sympathy. He's already been straight-forward about what he did, and from what I read, his neighbors like him. He's got two boys...polish him enough to admit regret that this man died. Given the publicity of this case, he will probably have access to a good lawyer exchanging his/her services for the pub.

littlebuddy · December-31-09, 09:01 AM

This is the kind of city he lives in, lawless. The criminals run free and decent people are scared and victims time and time again. The "law" might side with the criminal in that he should have not been shot outside the house and they will find the shooter guilty of something to send a message to the decent people that crime does pay, that the criminals have "rights" too. That even if the police do nothing, you just take it time and time again. Where is Paul Kersy when we need him?

**janesback** · December-31-09, 09:02 AM

Bartok, exactly......there have been cases where people have killed and are given very light sentences, and some probation

Id take my chances for mercy from the jury.......surely they can identify with this guard. Remember that fellow who was a New York subway rider about 10 years ago. He was kind of a geeky looking guy, and about 5 guys surrounded him and attempted to attack

If I remember right, he was occassionally selected out and humiliated while he waited for his train. I guess the guy had his fill and took a gun with him, and then when they taunted him, he lost it and shot them all......I think a few died, Im not sure

'But what I do remember what stands out, is the sympathy he got from fellow New Yorkers on his situatioin. Numerous subway riders were polled and asked for an interview, and all of the totally supported this subway rider I guess many of them were just like this guy. I think his name was Bernard Gettz. I guess at that time, there were many subway riders who were being harrassed, groaped, panhandled, and put in tough situations. I guess they were just fed up and wanted it to stop, and this guy was one who showed the thugs he wasnt going to take it anymore......

Also, a few years ago in L A, a guy shot a tagger who was in the process of tagging, and got an extremely light sentence, as people in LA are fed up with grafitti and thought this would be a great message to the punk taggers who ruin their property

Id take a jury trial, I d take my chances with a sympathetic jury Jane

**ejames01** · December-31-09, 09:14 AM

This man's real mistake is talking to the police BEFORE talking to a lawyer. With a proper statement, he might not have been charged with anything.

ziggyselbin · December-31-09, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by janesback

Bartok, exactly......there have been cases where people have killed and are given very light sentences, and some probation

Id take my chances for mercy from the jury.......surely they can identify with this guard. Remember that fellow who was a New York subway rider about 10 years ago. He was kind of a geeky looking guy, and about 5 guys surrounded him and attempted to attack

If I remember right, he was occassionally selected out and humiliated while he waited for his train. I guess the guy had his fill and took a gun with him, and then when they taunted him, he lost it and shot them all......I think a few died, Im not sure

'But what I do remember what stands out, is the sympathy he got from fellow New Yorkers on his situatioin. Numerous subway riders were polled and asked for an interview, and all of the totally supported this subway rider I guess many of them were just like this guy. I think his name was Bernard Gettz. I guess at that time, there were many subway riders who were being harrassed, groaped, panhandled, and put in tough situations. I guess they were just fed up and wanted it to stop, and this guy was one who showed the thugs he wasnt going to take it anymore......

Also, a few years ago in L A, a guy shot a tagger who was in the process of tagging, and got an extremely light sentence, as people in LA are fed up with grafitti and thought this would be a great message to the punk taggers who ruin their property

Id take a jury trial, I d take my chances with a sympathetic jury Jane

You are referring to Bernie Goetz. The whole story is easily found online. He was waiting for a subway and one of the youths that approached him asked him for money something like let me borrow five dollars....the rest is history. These were not good kids. They were shitheads. They got what I would call one of the "occupational hazards" of their chosen vocation that day. If the poor soul that was shot and killed in Detroit was out doing bad things i.e. steling from others then he too is a victim of an occupational hazard of being a thief..........you take the risk of being shot.

**Wykkidx** · December-31-09, 11:52 AM

He is a Hero and I hope that I also will be picked for a jury. How much is enough?? How many times do you have to be broken into, have the things you worked hard for taken from you, have your home damaged, have your life turned upside down. You have your home broken into, you put bars on the windows and doors, so now you the home owner are living in a jail. Every time your home is invaded you have to repair it and try to shore it up better, all because of some piece of garbage wants what you have without working for it.

How much is enough?? The criminals don't care if the homeowner lives or dies, how hard the homeowner has worked for his stuff, the criminal does not care what they do to anyone. Yet we have people on here crying over this walking garbage pile dieing. The criminals know that if they get out of the house then 9 out of 10 they will not be caught. If enough people are like this hero and stand up for your home and your neighbor then we could actually clean up Detroit, and take it back from the drug dealers and crooks.

smudge pot · December-31-09, 11:59 AM

This Croff guy's really starting to grow on me. His comportment at the arraignment: solid gold. And Silas? Turns out he's no young punk, maybe just a foolish geezer going through mid-life crisis? No matter, he brought it on. To quote Orville Hubbard: "An open-and-shut case of suicide".

And Kym says there's more to it? What, an ongoing feud? That only helps Croff. The NRA should give Croff the best black lawyer they have, set up paypal, build up the war chest, and run with it.