Bush Crime Family Improperly Surveilled Americans

[rb336]

look it up, bats. you would know things like this if you broadened your horizons a bit instead of wallowing in willful ignorance

[Bearinabox]

Jim, I don't usually differ with you, but I'm much more concerned about someone blowing up my town than the million to one possibility of someone manufacturing false evidence against me. That's a reach.

So is the idea that anyone would bother blowing up Henderson, Nevada. Not remotely worth the trouble.

[ccbatson]

I did look it up...came up with nothing other than the report of the detentions. No charges, no suits, nothing about the outcome, nothing about whether there was any legitimate allegations, etc...care to try again?

[elganned]

I did look it up...came up with nothing other than the report of the detentions. No charges, no suits, nothing about the outcome, nothing about whether there was any legitimate allegations, etc...care to try again?

That in itself speaks volumes, Cc. More of your deliberate obtuseness?

[Jimaz]

Jim, I don't usually differ with you, but I'm much more concerned about someone blowing up my town than the million to one possibility of someone manufacturing false evidence against me. That's a reach.

So is the idea that anyone would bother blowing up Henderson, Nevada. Not remotely worth the trouble.

In defense of Ray1936, I'm sure he's concerned about others beyond Henderson and understands the rationale behind the concept of Probable Cause. My point was that without enforcing the illegality of government's unwarrented surveillance of citizens, we lose a critical weapon against government manufacturing false evidence for political persecution of innocent civilians.

I think Ray1936 was expressing his [[understandable) trust of a government who he believes would not commit such an act. Let's hope so.

I think that the illegality of government's unwarrented surveillance of citizens in itself has created that atmosphere of trust. Other governments or a future government of our own may not be as trustworthy.

We need to defend a forward guard against unwarranted surveillance of innocent citizens to protect against a potentially politically-motivated adverse government.

[rb336]

I did look it up...came up with nothing other than the report of the detentions. No charges, no suits, nothing about the outcome, nothing about whether there was any legitimate allegations, etc...care to try again?

Why try again? you just PROVED my point -- detentions were made without legitimate allegations

[Lorax]

The Tushies were particularly good at detentions without allegations, evidence, or access to lawyers.

Seems to be a theme perpetrated by the Reich.

[ccbatson]

Brief detentions are not illegal....suspicion being the cause.

[Lorax]

Perhaps in fascist Germany or Italy.

Detentions without charges or "suspicions" are illegal last time I looked.

What sort of world do you live in?

Noticed any caning of jaywalkers in Taiwan lately?

[ccbatson]

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...ract_id=494763

If there is probable cause, it is legit...the US constitution, 4th amendment.

[Lorax]

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...ract_id=494763

If there is probable cause, it is legit...the US constitution, 4th amendment.

Wow! I'm impressed- an actual link!

Now we're getting somewhere- probable cause is not a "suspicion" or "feeling" about someone.

It also requires an attorney if requested, which the prisoners, or shall we call them the PC "Detainees" in Cuba, have been denied their basic rights under the Geneva Conventions- no charges, and no attorneys, some going on 8 years now.

This is a war crime, courtesy of the Bush Crime Family.

[rb336]

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...ract_id=494763

If there is probable cause, it is legit...the US constitution, 4th amendment.

and, if you actually read about it, there was no probable cause. and they weren't "material witnesses"

[jiminnm]

Perhaps in fascist Germany or Italy.

Detentions without charges or "suspicions" are illegal last time I looked.

What sort of world do you live in?

Noticed any caning of jaywalkers in Taiwan lately?

Since we're a noation of laws, you should know what they are before you comment on them. The police have a right to hold someone suspected of committing a crime for a legally specified period before charging that person [[almost all states are 24-48 hours, and I think it's 48 hours in NYC). The US SupCt has decided, I think, that 48 hours is constitutional. If there's no charge, then the person is to be released.

So, if those folks in NYC were released within 48 hours, there was no illegal detention.

[oladub]

If there is probable cause, it is legit...the US constitution, 4th amendment.

and from Bats post #19
"It is not unconstitutional so long as it is structured as a temporary measure...remember the draft? Also unconstitutional if permanently employed."

4th Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

You forgot the details that probable cause has to be supported by 1) oath or affirmation, and 2)a description of the place to be searched, and 3) the names of persons or things to be seized. I don't believe that the Patriot Act has such restrictions. Here is Judge Napolitano, a pretty conservative guy, laying it out.
Judge Napolitano: Why The Patriot Act is Unconstitutional.

Also, where in the Constitution does it say that the government can violate the Constitution, the Fourth or Thirteenth Amendments for instance, temporarily? What's your basis for suggesting that temporary can mean about 30 years as you suggested?

[Blarf]

The Patriot Act is bullshit.

You can't just blame Bush for it. It was passed and approved. Those who voted in favor of should be receiving the same criticism as Bush.

[rb336]

The Patriot Act is bullshit.

You can't just blame Bush for it. It was passed and approved. Those who voted in favor of should be receiving the same criticism as Bush.

True. Very true. Except that bush pushed it through on false pretenses and the repubs didn't allow debate

[livefreeorDIE]

There is no reason to believe that either political party and in particular it's senior members are anything less than guilty of treason against the Constitution and those that have died to defend it. There is little thats legal in the many of the laws that have been passed by our so called elected officials in many years going back as far as the actions taken in the early 1860's.
As long as there are those that support the activities of these traitors then nothing will change, except for the rapid acceleration of the total collapse of the american dream and all that was meant to represent.
Shame on all of us!

[maxx]

Not so nebulous when they flew into the twin towers, shot at us in Iraq and now Afghanistan....for crying out loud, could the libs make a weaker argument?

You seem to forget that we invaded Iraq for no good reason. Wouldn't you shoot at an invader here? And the Bushies dropped the ball in Afghanistan, a country that was already pretty much in tatters in 2001. And we armed and trained a lot of those guys that "shot at us". Shortly after 9/11, we bombed Afghanistan and killed around 3,000 civilians. Then the shrub and company turned to a war that was planned back in 1996 and invaded Iraq. I'm unimpressed with your arguments.

[gibran]

we all know by now Iraq was saved by the military not by those who sent them..still waiting for the neocons to produce accountablity and take responsibility fo rIraq...maxx is very spot on.