Abandoned churches of Detroit

[Retroit]

...the Roman Catholic Church in the USA has RARELY made itself welcoming to Afican Americans, and thus you have more empty Catholic Churches than needed to be. It is one of many, many, reasons that I am a PROUD Ex-Catholic...

Could you elaborate? Have African-Americans been turned away from the Catholic Church?

...and before any of you blindly, loyal anti-threadjacking critics start any of your whining: In our great forum, every allegation is subject to scrutiny, and the anti-Catholic rhetoric is no different.

[Onthe405]

Could you elaborate?

Certainly. Straight from someone who was raised Catholic.

Have Afican-Americans been turned away from the Catholic Church?

Not as a formal policy. However, as Christian denominations go, it is difficult to argue that the RCC is a welcoming church to outsiders. For the most part, the RCC is very much a denomination you are born into via culture and family rather than intellectually choose as an adult. The statistics support this. Ask a Catholic if their parents were Catholic and the answer will most likely be “yes”. Ask a Catholic if they have ever attended services of another denomination, and the answer will most likely be “no”. This is particularly true in the Detroit area where huge numbers of immigrants from Eastern Europe & Italy [[my background) settled, and the dominance of the RCC is so closely intertwined with the cultures of countries in those areas.

Excluding people, rather than including them, is a tenant of the RCC faith. Who is “qualified” to participate in communion is just one of many examples. Divorced people are not welcome. Gay people are not welcome. People of other Christian denominations are not welcome. People who have never been baptized are not welcome. Those who do not confess to a RC priest are not welcome. Up until recently, single people were not welcome to be oblation bearers [[carrying the gifts to the altar). I can continue if you’d like.

The purpose of the thread & this post is not to argue the theological justification for these policies . People like yourself are free to subscribe to any faith you wish and feel justified in it. However, objectively, there are other churches [[both denominational & otherwise) who welcome all of God’s children equally, without any asterisks or velvet ropes. That was your original question.

[stinkbug]

You made an excellent point. Yes, one reason for abandoned churches is the population decline in Detroit city, BUT it was made worse by the fact
that the Roman Catholic Church in the USA has RARELY made itself welcoming to Afican Americans, and thus you have more empty Catholic Churches than needed to be. It is one of many, many, reasons that I am a PROUD
Ex-Catholic.

Ken

....and before any of you blindly, loyal Cathoilcs start any of your whining about it's open season on the Catholic Church. In our great nation every institution is subject to scutiny, the RC church is no different.

Well, before you get too excited, we're not on the same page. I was generally holding Catholics themselves to blame, not the institution itself in this case.

For all the multitude of problems and sins of the Catholic Church, racism is generally not one of them. As someone else pointed out, there are millions of African and Caribbean Catholics. By being enslaved in the south, and developing their own spirituality which is a far cry from the liturgical rigidity of the RCC, the Catholic Church never developed a huge AA following. Percentage-wise, there are even less black Lutherans in the USA than black Roman Catholics, so by that logic they are even less "welcoming". Still, there are some integrated and predominantly black parishes.

The RCC isn't really racist because it has generally embraced a univeralist dogma. One's Roman Catholicism matters more than anything else. So much so that the allegiance of Roman Catholics in this country were questioned all the way up through Kennedy. The Catholic Church is the most widespread religious institution on earth. You can find a Catholic Church in more countries than you can find anything else.

That said, I decry the Archdiocese for closing its schools in the city AND inner burbs to build fancy new ones in sprawl townships. They could have, and should have adapted to meet the needs to the urban population. The Jesuits did it, and they're doing fantastic. Not to mention pouring money into the John Paul Cultural Center...

-inner-city Catholic

[kathy2trips]

.....Roman Catholic Church in the USA has RARELY made itself welcoming to Afican Americans.........Ken........and before any of you blindly, loyal Cathoilcs start any of your whining about it's open season on the Catholic Church. In our great nation every institution is subject to scutiny, the RC church is no different.

The Catholic Church has had an Office for Black Catholic Ministries [[OBCM) for many, many years, and have not shown such accommodations to other races. You may have had your reasons for leaving Catholicism, but "non-acceptance" does not ring true. Talk about whining!

[smudge pot]

I'm ashamed of my fellow Catholics for abandoning the beautiful churches built by their ancestors which are of truly amazing and inspiring proportions...in favor of what are essentially strip malls in the exburbs. Oh well...closer to their subdivisions; further from black people.

Before they abandoned their churches, they abandoned their homes. I'm not ashamed of them, I'm sad for them. As for their ancestors, they were full of hope and optimism, however, if any are looking down on us now, I doubt a single one of them would resent their children and grandchildren for getting out of Dodge, and leaving those things made of stone and brick behind. Look at what those very ancestors themselves left behind in Poland, only to be later destroyed by Hitler and Stalin. Let's not get too worked up over a few buildings in Detroit, let's just be thankful that the dream of those ancestors is being realized somewhere in America, somewhere nearby, somewhere safe, healthy, and happy.

[Rosa]

You're right...it was St. John Cantius. We went there for mass until it closed in October, 2007. The bell tower was recently placed at St. Paul of Tarsus in Clinton Township.

What did they do with the altar? There was an amazingly ornate altar there.

[Jimaz]

This thread is Hall of Fame material. Last [[final) hope abandoned. When, oh when, will it stop its ugly decline?

[terryh]

I took some pics of King Solomon about two years? ago. I thought it was open at the time...kind of dark -dreary building. Wouldn't mind taking at peek at the inside. Was aware that Malcom X spoke there.

[JLeurck]

I admit, on the outside St Paul of Tarsus seems to have more in common with a zeppelin hangar than say, Ste Anne-de-Detroit, but I do like how the interior is laid out with the parish halved and seated amphitheatre-style on either side of a centerline that includes the ambo, baptismal font and altar. My local parish church here is like that and everyone can see what is going on, and see the faces of at least half of their fellow parishioners. That beats looking at the back of the head of the person in front you. I think some of the new ecclesiastical architectural innovations are actually bona-fide improvements.

That said, I love the look of the big, traditional cruciform churches like the former [[and sadly abandoned) St. Agnes/Martyrs of Uganda on 12th and Bethune.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/allanm/2801649835/

Man, looking on Google maps, it is hard to believe how some of these parishs manage to remain open, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Archdiocese announces another wave of closings/clusterings. It is sad, but like someone earlier in the thread said, the church is the people, and the people have left.

[Ocean2026]

I always liked the one at 8501 Woodward - of course I've only been to Detroit once but I still like it.

[DetroitZack]

This one is at Grand River and Vicksburg

[detroitbob66]

This is the East Grand Blvd Church of broken dreams! Sad situation

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[Whitehouse]

Pretty ironic that last picture.

[detroitbob66]

Right! I got more too.....I got in there this fall and it was just like I said.....a sad situation

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[jeanofarc]

It's actually not abandoned; but the pastor is trying to get community involvment in using the spaces and bring the building back to life. He wants non-profit and community groups to use the space for trade to get it operational. I'm going over there to fix a gas leak and get a tour.

[DetroitZack]

Traxus, what church is that?

[DetroitZack]

Here is the Woodward Avenue Presbyterian Church [[1911)

[Ocean2026]

Thanks Detroit Zack- I posted a couple of pics a while back. I hear its in disrepair of course. What is the area like? Anyone been inside.. recently?

[DetroitZack]

At the link below are some pictures of the inside from last summer
http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=wood...20church&w=all

[Jimaz]

This DetroitYES banner sums up this thread succinctly:

[Retroit]

This DetroitYES banner sums up this thread succinctly:

Hmmm... I don't see any gay or divorced people there either.

[Jimaz]

That banner tells a story that takes place after the story of this thread. It's both prescient and poignant. That's a gem of a photo right there.

[Ocean2026]

Detroit Zack - amazing you can come up with stuff like that. Someone names a bldg and you have the inside and outside pics available. The inside obviously needs a lot of work and then what could be done with it? What is the area like?

[Lorax]

Naturally the neighborhood is a war zone. The building could be anything- which is preferable to demolishing it, which I would bet will be it's fate, only after the homeless burn it this winter trying to stay warm.

Churches don't pay property taxes, so I would advise anyone buying it to go in with papers setting up a church, but then use it for your home, business, whatever will save the building. If it gets newly assessed for property taxes as some entity other than a "church" then it will have a 50k per year tax bill due to the city's incompetence.

Lease it out to a church that needs space, or hold services only on Sunday- but using it for some other purpose is it's only chance at this point.

The heat bill alone would run 5k per month in the winter, so alternate forms of heating would be needed. I would put a fire pit in the center and run the flue up the center through the skylight, making the sanctuary a living room.

[Pam]

Have African-Americans been turned away from the Catholic Church?

There are black Catholics in Detroit. I've seen them at some churches I have visited.
[[St. Charles Borromeo , St. Aloysius and some others I can't think of right now.)

Edited to add this church:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_...roit,_Michigan)