Lipstick on the pig [[economy)

[elganned]

How can anyone be in favor of antitrust regulations that guarantee a governmental coercive monopoly?

How, pray tell, do antitrust regulations lead to a monopoly? You do realize that's a non sequitur without equal? Like homicide laws leading to murder, or anti-theft laws leading to criminal fencing rings?

[ccbatson]

So easy...knock out the competition leaving only the government to run the operation...funded with money taken under threat of force, from taxpayers....a coercive governmental monopoly.

Post office, Amtrack, Medicare, Social security, public schools....etc.

[oladub]

Now THAT is revisionist history

Vice President Biden acknowledged [[July 2009) that the administration underestimated the depth of the economic recession months ago as it prepared a recovery package that is only now beginning to take effect.
Biden Acknowledges Administration 'Misread' The Economy

Here's a follower of Austrian economics calling the housing collapes in July, 2002 four years before the market peaked. http://www.ronpaul.com/2008-09-26/ro...ble-july-2002/

Can you find any Keynesians nailing it before the collapse? They were, and still are, running the economy.

[ccbatson]

A rhetorical question I am sure [[just clarifying for Rb before he tries to answer the unanswerable).

[maxx]

[oladub wrote:Hoover and Roosevelt, instead tried to 'fix' the economy,failed to do so and perpetuated it.]

Now there's a bit of historical misrepresentation. FDR's policies brought down the unemployment rate to 15%. His mistake was listening to the conservatives.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/10/op...10krugman.html

"The effects of federal public works spending were largely offset by other factors, notably a large tax increase, enacted by Herbert Hoover, whose full effects weren’t felt until his successor took office. Also, expansionary policy at the federal level was undercut by spending cuts and tax increases at the state and local level. And F.D.R. wasn’t just reluctant to pursue an all-out fiscal expansion — he was eager to return to conservative budget principles. That eagerness almost destroyed his legacy. After winning a smashing election victory in 1936, the Roosevelt administration cut spending and raised taxes, precipitating an economic relapse that drove the unemployment rate back into double digits and led to a major defeat in the 1938 midterm elections."

[maxx]

So easy...knock out the competition leaving only the government to run the operation...funded with money taken under threat of force, from taxpayers....a coercive governmental monopoly.

Post office, Amtrack, Medicare, Social security, public schools....etc.

Yes the post office has really knocked out UPS et al. And Medicare has really bankrupted the health insurace companies. In Detroit, the charter schools are taking money from the public schools for students that they then send back to the public schools after they get their money. Nice trick.
What I saw was the Bushies indebting us to the Chinese and then allowing them to destroy our manufacturing sector so that the military is now one of the only employers. We're turning into Prussia.

[Lorax]

Florida has five major investor owned utilities, all sorts of municipal utilities and customer owned coops in rural areas. The are regulated by Florida's public service commission; a government agency. De-regualation didn't work out so well in California. What you have is regulation. You are proposing, instead, to have a government monopoly run by the same people who now regulate your system. FPL, by the way, is one of the largest owners of wind generation facilities across the country.
Primer on Florida electical production -see pages 2-5.

Back on topic-
The US jobless rate has risen to over 10%. One of the administration people had threatened Congress that if they didn't pass Obama's Porkulus bill by that given Friday, unemployment would increase above 8.5%. So they passed Porkulus and unemployment is now over 10%. It has failed to do as promised while running the country down the road of greater debt and an eventual collapsing dollar.
US jobless rate rises to over 10%

Sorry Oldtub, but Florida is monopolized by what you call these "investor owned" utilities, I live here, I should know.

FPL owns the lion's share of the business here, and the other "investor owned" utilities use FPL's grid to deploy their power- giving it the appearance of competition, much as phone companies use each other's infrastructure to carry communications lines.

I can't believe you'd fall for that one.

The rural co-ops are tiny and inconsequential, and are allowed to exist because they are small and inconsequential.

[Lorax]

Yes the post office has really knocked out UPS et al. And Medicare has really bankrupted the health insurace companies. In Detroit, the charter schools are taking money from the public schools for students that they then send back to the public schools after they get their money. Nice trick.
What I saw was the Bushies indebting us to the Chinese and then allowing them to destroy our manufacturing sector so that the military is now one of the only employers. We're turning into Prussia.

Great post, and right-on.

We exist only as consumers within a web of interlocking influence and corruption perpetrated by the corporate elites.

Competition from government is what they fear most, and will spend billions to defeat any populist legislation, as is being done with health care.

[oladub]

Where was Paul Krugman when first the Fed was providing cheap money leading to the Nasdaq bubble and then later the housing bubble? His FDR apologist article suggests he was being a chearleader. Why if only Roosevelt would have put the country further into debt and further devalued the dollar and had more farmers dumping their milk, then maybe he would have brought down the unemployment rate below 15%. I don't know about you, but a decade of unemployment above 15% is not my idea of successful economics. I suppose if after 8 years, Obama's unemployment rate is still running around 15%, Paul Krugman can be counted on to somehow blame the situation on Bush.

Anything above notwithstanding, Roosevelt's hydroelectric dams, public libraries, and post offices have paid back taxpayers many times over. Too bad the Obama administration is considering tearing out some of the hydroelectic dams to appease wealthy anglers.

[Lorax]

So easy...knock out the competition leaving only the government to run the operation...funded with money taken under threat of force, from taxpayers....a coercive governmental monopoly.

Post office, Amtrack, Medicare, Social security, public schools....etc.

Sorry, ain't gonna happen.

The post office is such a threat to UPS, Fedex, that they are nearing insolvency.

No one mails anything anymore, and they have been slow to downsize.

Oh, and BTW, Fedex and UPS wouldn't exist without the use of USPS planes and trucks, which carry more of their packages than UPS or FEDEX do.

Just another example of corporate America using the public commons to further their own ends.

[oladub]

Sorry Oldtub, but Florida is monopolized by what you call these "investor owned" utilities, I live here, I should know.

FPL owns the lion's share of the business here, and the other "investor owned" utilities use FPL's grid to deploy their power- giving it the appearance of competition, much as phone companies use each other's infrastructure to carry communications lines.

I can't believe you'd fall for that one.

The rural co-ops are tiny and inconsequential, and are allowed to exist because they are small and inconsequential.

Before you wrote that

"here in Florida we are slaves to Florida Power and Light, which is the privately held monopoly that provides Florida with it's electricity [[or lack thereof)

I responded with information from your public service commission proving you to be wrong. There are five major investor owned utilities in Florida plus a number of co-ops and public municipal utilities. You live in Miami where FPL has the monopoly. If you would have opened up the link you would have found maps showing that FPL does not even dominate Florida. Co-ops were shown on a different map. Electric co-ops do not exist to give the appearance of competition. They usually operate where population is scarce and the big investor companies are not interested in investing because of the scarce returns. I buy my phone, cable, electricity, and some of my groceries and mechanic services through employee and customer owned coops so I should know about co-ops. Almost forgot, I also buy beer from brewery which is employee owned since Stroh's almost destroyed it.
---------------------

Oh, and BTW, Fedex and UPS wouldn't exist without the use of USPS planes and trucks, which carry more of their packages than UPS or FEDEX do.

You have that backwards. Fedex transports USPS parcels. http://www.allbusiness.com/transport...6256953-1.html

[Lorax]

What the public service commission doesn't tell you is the relationship the "line renters" have with FPL, which OWNS the transmission lines.

Don't try and muddy the water here, in our local community we had to sue FPL to stop them from building 80 foot transmission lines through the front yards of a lower-middle class neighborhood because a wealthy neighborhood needed the additional capacity. Throught the process we learned how the tentacles of FPL dominate not only the Florida power grid, but the politics of Tallahassee.

We lost, since the political arm of FPL is allowed to do whatever it wants, including destroying trees and neighborhoods in the process. With the billions they have "earned" they can't even bury the lines- and when we have hurricanes, those 80 foot galvanized poles blow over, damaging homes, cars, and killing people.

If you want to get into the weeds on this, I'm ready- your cut and paste art project doesn't tell the whole truth.

And Fedex and UPS use USPS planes and vehicles domestically, my cousin flies one of the planes, so don't presume your little post tells the whole truth.

[Sstashmoo]

There is rumblings the USPS may be eventually eliminated. They were 8 billion in the hole just a few months ago for the year.

I'll tell ya what irks me about USPS, is their fraternizing with the likes of Ebay and advertising Ebay in our taxpayer funded post offices. Can the rest of private companies advertise in there too?

[oladub]

Lorax, my 'little article' had the following paragraph,

FedEx already had a strong relationship with the USPS. The Memphis-based express carrier provides some domestic air transportation services for Priority Mail, Express Mail, and first class mail. FedEx also has positioned nearly 5,000 drop boxes at U.S. Postal Service retail locations around the country.

The 5,000 drop boxes was part of the deal. I would be interested in any articles you could provide substantiating your cousin's claim.

Sstashmoo, The USPS was having a had time gathering a $5B payment due at the end of September for its retiree health care plans. I don't know how that turned out. My guess is that the Post Office will be forced to shut down thousands of small town post offices and go to alternate day delivery in many places. Every penny increase in postal rates brings in $1B in income. A few years ago, the Bush Administration looted the mail carriers' retirement trust funds claiming there was more money than needed in them. This money had come out of carriers pay checks and was dedicated toward their retirement funds. After Bush stole these funds, the GAO said too much had been removed. Instead of the federal governmnet replacing the stolen retirement money, the Post Office had to raise postage two years in a row to replace the money.

[Lorax]

LOL!!

My cousin only claims to work for the USPS!

No, he just really likes wearing the uniform around for the last 25 years!

LOL!!!

[ccbatson]

Look at the laws pertaining to those venturing to compete with the USPS. THEY MUST CHARGE A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE HIGHER THAN THE USPS RATE BY LAW....coercive monopoly and price fixing. Despite all of that and the free hand in the funding cookie jar, the USPS is deep in the red.

[rb336]

Look at the laws pertaining to those venturing to compete with the USPS. THEY MUST CHARGE A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE HIGHER THAN THE USPS RATE BY LAW....coercive monopoly and price fixing. Despite all of that and the free hand in the funding cookie jar, the USPS is deep in the red.

instead of looking like an idiot by using ALL CAPS like you do every time you recognize that you are losing an argument, why not attach a link to back up your comment?

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "The USPS was having a had time gathering a $5B payment due at the end of September for its retiree health care plans."

I heard two months ago they had lost 8 billion in operational costs for the year. Can't remember where, just a blurb from something. Your explanation sounds about right.

[ccbatson]

Careful what you wish for Rb

http://mobile.forbes.com/device/arti...19schrum.html?

Enough rope to hang yourself with this time I believe

[rb336]

1st, bats, your link bounced right back to the main forbes web site, not the article

2nd, bats, if an article says "Commentary" it is an opinion. Just because you aped this guy's line, doesn't mean that it is a fact.

3rd, bats, why don't you include those when you post the first time? It's not that hard, is it?

how can I hange myself when I merely pointed out that you need to post links? I neither agreed nor disagreed with the comment. I still haven't agreed or disagreed because I don't know the facts. If all you are going on is an op-ed, YOU don't know the facts, either

oh, and seriously, do you think any company could do first class mail at a profit?

[Detroitej72]

2nd, bats, if an article says "Commentary" it is an opinion. Just because you aped this guy's line, doesn't mean that it is a fact.

Many times right wingers are so out of touch with facts and reality that they need to use op-ed pieces to support their claims. That happens when your beliefs are so far of the mark that you can't find any real proof.

[oladub]

do you think any company could do first class mail at a profit?

The USPS is charged with universal coverage so the question is whether a private company could deliver first class mail to every mailbox in the country at a profit. While private companies could profit delivering first class mail around urban areas, they would lose money in places like N. Dakota, Montana, and Alaska. I'm not sure that UPS even delivers packages everywhere in Alaska. Also, the USPS does use third class mail to subsidize first class mail so the question can't be raised without including third class, now referred to as 'standard' mail.

[ghettopalmetto]

Why is the Postal Service expected to turn a profit?

The Constitution merely says that Congress has authority to establish post offices and post roads. It says nothing of their profitability.

[elganned]

Oh, now, ghettopalmetto, you're bringing logic into the argument. That will never do.

[Sstashmoo]

Since when is what the Constitution doesn't say logic? To the contrary. I would think the thrust of any endeavor is not to be stupid about it and lose money. Seems logical.