Great American Streetcar Scandal

[Retroit]

I wonder if there ever was a "Great American Horse and Buggy Scandal"? Imagine all the horse and hay farmers that went broke. Damn that Henry Ford!

[stasu1213]

Sorry I don't trust your website. It is flawed Ziggy. If strip malls with huge parking lots and stores pushed way in the back where pedestrians have to walk a "country mile" to get to is the best you can argue for then I would have to to say arugue for planners and designers whom uses common sense and catches the busses daily instead of planners whom had been spoiled by pulling up everywhere in a car. I have a car myself but I use the bus system. Detroit planner, you may had not help wreck the plans for a transit system in detroit but if the best you guys could do is plan for strip malls designed not to be pedestrial friendly with curb appeal and accesible then I would have to say to you "Go back to the drawing board and try again"

[ziggyselbin]

Sorry I don't trust your website. It is flawed Ziggy. If strip malls with huge parking lots and stores pushed way in the back where pedestrians have to walk a "country mile" to get to is the best you can argue for then I would have to to say arugue for planners and designers whom uses common sense and catches the busses daily instead of planners whom had been spoiled by pulling up everywhere in a car. I have a car myself but I use the bus system. Detroit planner, you may had not help wreck the plans for a transit system in detroit but if the best you guys could do is plan for strip malls designed not to be pedestrial friendly with curb appeal and accesible then I would have to say to you "Go back to the drawing board and try again"

Brilliant. Simply ignore the evidence is your way of dealing with being refuted. Look it up yourself. The link I provided is one of many that show hoe phony and flimsy and false the accusation is that G.M. conspired to ruin any mass transit system anywhere in the world.

[DetroitPlanner]

Sorry I don't trust your website. It is flawed Ziggy. If strip malls with huge parking lots and stores pushed way in the back where pedestrians have to walk a "country mile" to get to is the best you can argue for then I would have to to say arugue for planners and designers whom uses common sense and catches the busses daily instead of planners whom had been spoiled by pulling up everywhere in a car. I have a car myself but I use the bus system. Detroit planner, you may had not help wreck the plans for a transit system in detroit but if the best you guys could do is plan for strip malls designed not to be pedestrial friendly with curb appeal and accesible then I would have to say to you "Go back to the drawing board and try again"

TQ is a reputable resource. It is published by TRB, which is one of the National Academies of Science. You might as well not trust gravity. Don't attack without merit, please read my first post. You even sourced me previously because you agreed with this idea.

[uberfrau]

Yeah, all these 'successful' automobile dependent cities will go the way of the 3rd world once gas hits $5/gallon, or more. It's just a matter of time, and not much time at that.

[Detroitnerd]

BRT is on DetroitPlanner's "must try" list. Try not to laugh too hard when he brings it up again ... and again ... and again ...

[cman710]

Yeah, all these 'successful' automobile dependent cities will go the way of the 3rd world once gas hits $5/gallon, or more. It's just a matter of time, and not much time at that.

Uberfrau, I think you are overstating the case. While automobile dependent cities will suffer if gas prices hit $5/gallon, they will not completely fall apart overnight. [[Look at Detroit, which took at least twenty-five years to decline precipitously, though for different reasons.)

However, you do raise a good point that these cities will suffer. It remains to be seen what will happen, however, because [[1) we do not know when gasoline will cost that much for a sustained period, and [[2) we do not know how these cities will react to these changes. What we do know, however, is that cities are usually slow at responding to changes outside their control.

[Retroit]

Why would you put a parking lot in the back of a business and make everyone [[except the very few people that walk) to walk all the way around the store just to get to the front entrance. I understand buildings need to "communicate" with the street, but this is the 21st Century, let them communicate via telephone!

[DetroitPlanner]

BRT is on DetroitPlanner's "must try" list. Try not to laugh too hard when he brings it up again ... and again ... and again ...

Well excuse me for being realistic. Lots of components for BRT can be used in a rail system once ridership is proven. BRT has proven to reduce travel times and increase connectivity over a regular bus system. Its also significantly less expensive, in case you have not noticed, the Feds are broke, and we are worse than broke. If you have the billions needed to build a streetcar and get agreement from DDOT, FTA, and MDOT to do so, be my guest. I'd love to see it. In fact I'll even help you cut through the paperwork you need to go through to build one! I'll leave fighting the unions up to you though.

[DetroitPlanner]

Why would you put a parking lot in the back of a business and make everyone [[except the very few people that walk) to walk all the way around the store just to get to the front entrance. I understand buildings need to "communicate" with the street, but this is the 21st Century, let them communicate via telephone!

Pulling businesses forward is not the same as builing lots behind businesses. Here is a link to the area I introduced several posts back.

Notice the density and connectivity? Landscaping? Sidewalks? Bus Pull Outs? Bike lanes? Now compare this to our typically suburban development pattern. Depressed? You should be!

[stasu1213]

Why would you put a parking lot in the back of a business and make everyone [[except the very few people that walk) to walk all the way around the store just to get to the front entrance. I understand buildings need to "communicate" with the street, but this is the 21st Century, let them communicate via telephone!

Well let's see hummmmm. Hey Retroit how about designing the stores where there are doors that lead out to the streets and doors that lead out to the parking lot.

[stasu1213]

You people have to admit to it. Detroit was designed and set up as a car town. Stop pretending that it wasn't. It is still a car town. When I come into detroit to visit I noticed the lack of good neighborhood groceries stores, laundry mats, ect. It forces a person to drive to a store far away. Graholm is not going to do anything about with much smoke and mirrors she had put forth and that Mayor you guys have in Detroit is in GM's back pocket.

[casscorridor]

I don't see why street car is so expensive. Just lay the tracks in the cement, put up some electric overhead wires, and buy some rolling stock. I'm sure the rolling stock is comperable price to a bus. So the only extra cost is the tracks and wires. Why can't we just rebuild the system we had here before? With all the same routes and everything?

Perhaps later, or at the same time, we could make the main spoke roads heavier light-rail, or full on subway/elevated rail.

Just take a look at Philly.

[ghettopalmetto]

You people have to admit to it. Detroit was designed and set up as a car town. Stop pretending that it wasn't. It is still a car town. When I come into detroit to visit I noticed the lack of good neighborhood groceries stores, laundry mats, ect. It forces a person to drive to a store far away. Graholm is not going to do anything about with much smoke and mirrors she had put forth and that Mayor you guys have in Detroit is in GM's back pocket.

Detroit was "designed" as a walking town. It was modified beginning in the 1940s to accommodate cars over people.

Get your history straight.

[ghettopalmetto]

Note that some cities have been extremely successful with Bus Rapid Transit, and I know that while that may not please the purists out there, it would be a step above where we currently are.

And which American cities are those?

[stasu1213]

Detroit was "designed" as a walking town. It was modified beginning in the 1940s to accommodate cars over people.

Get your history straight.

Modified, redesigned, the same to me. The narrowing of Woodward even after all of the stores had left that part of it. The grassy island that is in the middle of streets such as 8mile, Outer Driver, Livernois, Soon to be Jefferson; those could be used as a lane for buses or light rail. Strip malls that sit wayback. The 1995 impala had been redesign[[modified) from it's 1994 model. Same to me. Also in the 30s and 40s Detroit started streching beyond it's original borders so the new parts had to be DESIGNED dont you think?

[Slipkid]

Fast foods, strip malls, and parking lots? That is why Detroiters are lazy since they drive more than walk [[parking lots and strip malls) and are the fattist people in the country[[fast foods). You see how GM's plans still have a grip on detroit. If GMC had made buses you could see why they used to be so unreliable. The busses often broke down. All of this just to get Detroiters and the surrounding areas to invest in automobiles. Come on.... Detroit labled "THE MOTOR CITY' In GM's mind they city has to represent. Someone had mentioned about a city where the buildings in the strip mall are pushed up to the front and the parking lot in the back. That is the way detroit, highland park, and other parts of the city had squashed most of the urban plans and ideas. The leaders had been getting their hand's greased by companies that has something to do the the automobile or anything that uses tires and gas.

I'm not a big fan of the Detroit bus system, but growing up in Detroit from the late 50's I don't recall many DSR etc. coaches on the side of the road in need of repair. None broke while I was riding [[did so daily in the early 70's).

[humanmachinery]

It is a bullshit myth


http://www.lava.net/cslater/TQOrigin.pdf

If it's bullshit, then why were Firestone, Standard Oil of California, Phillips, General Motors, Federal Engineering, and Mack found guilty of conspiring to monopolize the provision of parts and supplies to their subsidiary companies?

Granted, they were only assessed minimal fines for this act, but the evidence is staggering.

there's a very good documentary about the subject.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...5784907931000#

[humanmachinery]

And now, a competing view.

To New Horizons [[1940)


It's bizarre watching this film, created for and based on the General Motors exhibit at the 1939 World's Fair, knowing how the world actually turned out. Those glorious highways were definitely built [[in no small part because GM wanted them built) and now we're living with the suburban nightmare, with millions of people driving huge distances to work every day. The massive industrialization that this film speaks of in such glowing terms happened as well, with the consequence being the loss of that "pure, clean air" that GM believes will cover the "metropolis of 1960".

The film also glorifies the consumer society in a way that seems almost disgusting and perverted by modern standards. It routinely slams home the point that millions of new products will be available for men to purchase with their money, [[women don't exist in 1960, apparently) earned in the factories that build these amazing products. Yeah, that happened too.

http://www.archive.org/details/ToNewHor1940

It is naive, beautiful and frightening, kind of like Triumph of the Will, but without the podium and yelling.

The subtlety with which this vision of 1960 is actually a propaganda organ for General Motors is startling.

Notice that there is no public transit in this vision, and all mobility requires car usage.

Just what became of everything built before 1960? It seems all older structures were destroyed.

Who needs history?

[stasu1213]

They also had mentioned tall structures with landing pads for helicopters. Could it be that the landing pads would had been used for the flying cars of the future?

[ziggyselbin]

If it's bullshit, then why were Firestone, Standard Oil of California, Phillips, General Motors, Federal Engineering, and Mack found guilty of conspiring to monopolize the provision of parts and supplies to their subsidiary companies?

Granted, they were only assessed minimal fines for this act, but the evidence is staggering.

there's a very good documentary about the subject.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...5784907931000#

Finally someone speaking the truth. The "guilt" as you rightly point out was for conspiring to monopolize the provision of parts; a far damn cry from.........in fact not even in the same universe..... conspiring to destroy any streetcar or mass transit system. Why in the hell wouldn't all those businesses want to sell their goods? The trend was toward busses and away from streetcars. You should read the link it explains quite thoroughly how things evolved. It certainly was not the myth being perpetuated.

[stasu1213]

Finally someone speaking the truth. The "guilt" as you rightly point out was for conspiring to monopolize the provision of parts; a far damn cry from.........in fact not even in the same universe..... conspiring to destroy any streetcar or mass transit system. Why in the hell wouldn't all those businesses want to sell their goods? The trend was toward busses and away from streetcars. You should read the link it explains quite thoroughly how things evolved. It certainly was not the myth being perpetuated.

I don't remember seeing busses in the Future 1960 documentary. I don't remember seeing traffic jams in the film. I don't remember seeing cities left in decay for reasons of the factories [[GM) leaving the area and taking it's tax base with it. The film was correct in saying how expressways were built through [[slum) areas of these futuristic cities of 1960. Yes the trend was toward busses. GMC had once manufactured them. Firestone had made the tires. Standard Oil had provide the gasoline. Then the busses had started to become unreliable in the 70's and people purchased more cars still benefiting the three corrupts companies that I had named. Imagine if Detroit had some type of transit such as light rail or a subway that was put in place 40 yrs ago. People would still be able to get around more freely without a car. Dave Bing is nothing but a puppet for these companies. So was Coleman Young, Dennis Archer, and the clown Kwame Kilpatrick. You could throw in John Conyers with his scandalus wife, Carolyn Kilpatrick, Granholm [[the worst Governor of Michigan) and the Levins.

[ziggyselbin]

I don't remember seeing busses in the Future 1960 documentary. I don't remember seeing traffic jams in the film. I don't remember seeing cities left in decay for reasons of the factories [[GM) leaving the area and taking it's tax base with it. The film was correct in saying how expressways were built through [[slum) areas of these futuristic cities of 1960. Yes the trend was toward busses. GMC had once manufactured them. Firestone had made the tires. Standard Oil had provide the gasoline. Then the busses had started to become unreliable in the 70's and people purchased more cars still benefiting the three corrupts companies that I had named. Imagine if Detroit had some type of transit such as light rail or a subway that was put in place 40 yrs ago. People would still be able to get around more freely without a car. Dave Bing is nothing but a puppet for these companies. So was Coleman Young, Dennis Archer, and the clown Kwame Kilpatrick. You could throw in John Conyers with his scandalus wife, Carolyn Kilpatrick, Granholm [[the worst Governor of Michigan) and the Levins.

I read about three lines and then realized your paranoia was in full bloom.......in case you did not know G.M is a shell of it's former self and can not do anything w/o gov't sanction approval...but then being a paranoid you never let facts get in the way.

[Slipkid]

I don't remember seeing busses in the Future 1960 documentary. I don't remember seeing traffic jams in the film. I don't remember seeing cities left in decay for reasons of the factories [[GM) leaving the area and taking it's tax base with it. The film was correct in saying how expressways were built through [[slum) areas of these futuristic cities of 1960. Yes the trend was toward busses. GMC had once manufactured them. Firestone had made the tires. Standard Oil had provide the gasoline. Then the busses had started to become unreliable in the 70's and people purchased more cars still benefiting the three corrupts companies that I had named. Imagine if Detroit had some type of transit such as light rail or a subway that was put in place 40 yrs ago. People would still be able to get around more freely without a car. Dave Bing is nothing but a puppet for these companies. So was Coleman Young, Dennis Archer, and the clown Kwame Kilpatrick. You could throw in John Conyers with his scandalus wife, Carolyn Kilpatrick, Granholm [[the worst Governor of Michigan) and the Levins.

Again I'm not a fan of the bus system over streetcars [[on the contrary), but I don't recall an unusual amount of DSR buses disabled. Streetcars also have a infrastructure beyond diesel fuel and engines; electric power systems etc. which needs to be maintained.

[p69rrh51]

First of all the costs per mile of rail tranportation can be quite daunting but the most of the rail system in the city outside of downtown is still there entombed in a protective covering. Most of the rails were updated a couple years before the system stopped operating in the mid 50's. What suprises me is that what has not been mentioned is that in 1950 the city gave money for a tranportation study to GM! Guess what their answer was? Also our PCC units were purchased in the mid 50's by Mexico City where they ran until about 1985. I wonder how many buses were purchased and thrown away?