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Thread: Foreign Cars.

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  1. #1
    thatguy123 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearinabox View Post
    So what you're saying is, between a Kia Sorento built 800 miles away in Georgia and a Chevy Equinox built 150 miles away in Ontario...

    Nope, still not convinced.
    Convinced of what? Congrats at failing to read the article.

  2. #2
    Bearinabox Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by thatguy123 View Post
    Convinced of what? Congrats at failing to read the article.
    Convinced that I should care whether people in Georgia have jobs. Convinced that buying a Kia is in any way good for Southeast Michigan. Convinced that people who buy foreign cars and then blather about how patriotic they are because their foreign cars were assembled in the South aren't completely full of shit.

    Look, I have no problem with people buying foreign cars. If you want a Kia for whatever reason, go ahead and buy one--you don't need to justify yourself to me. Just don't try to tell me that your Kia is better for the local economy than a Chevy or a Ford, because it isn't.

  3. #3

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    "How, exactly, do you propose rectifying the trade deficit before all US assets are drained by others??"

    lilpup, I read an article recently stating the US has had trade deficits for about 200 years of our existence. So, I don't think the current situation is any particular cause for alarm.

    A lot of folks here talk about keeping the "profits" for so-called American cars here. Are there, in fact, any profits from cars made in the US? It seems that the US makers have to continually discount their products or advertise the hell out of them to make sales. The last figures I saw before GM's bankruptcy, they were losing tons here but were very profitable overseas.

    Lastly, if American manufacturers have to rely on high tariffs and folks like Buy American to buy only their products, then they're dead already. Manufacturing has gone global and mass product manufacturing will go to the cheapest maker who can meet the quality standards buyers demand for any given product. That's happening and nothing is going to stop it. We need to learn out to deal with it and what kind of products can be produced here, better and cheaper than elsewhere.

  4. #4
    Buy American Guest

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    You bet your ass I am a pro-domistic extremist.

    Anyone who comes up with the lame excuse of purchasing a Toyota that was built here in the USA by American labor and says it's okay has their head buried in the sand. Anyone who says the profits don't go straight to Japan is kidding themselves, because they DO go straight to Japan, which helps THEIR economy. Who are you people supporting anyway? Japan or the United States of America? Japan is where the money you make is going. So, instead of stimulating our economy, you're stimulating Japan's economy. The reason Toyota is cheaper than a comparable US made automobile is because of unfair trade practices by Japan and the fact that Japan artificially devalues their yen so that they can sell their exports cheaper. Another reason is Toyota has only been making a big amount of cars for maybe 20 years, so they don't have a whole lot of retiree pensions to pay out. They don't give the same health care coverage for their U.S. employees as the American car companies do. Another myth is American made cars are overpriced garbage. If you bother to go and test drive a few of the new American made cars by GM, Ford or Chrysler you'll find out that any one of these cars are at least as good, if not better than the new Toyotas selling today. BUY AMERICAN, no more excuses....but I'm sure you'll come up with the same old lame ones anyway.

  5. #5
    crawford Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buy American View Post
    The reason Toyota is cheaper than a comparable US made automobile is because of unfair trade practices by Japan and the fact that Japan artificially devalues their yen so that they can sell their exports cheaper. .
    1. Toyotas are more expensive, not cheaper, than American cars. American cars are overwhelemingly purchased with incentives and discounts. Toyota usually gets something close to MSRP.

    2. Japan's Yen is extremely strong; in fact abnormally strong relative to its economic health. Its relative strength in the face of Japan's massive debtload and economic decline has been the subject of fascination for economists for years.

    BTW, both of these points you make [[and your overall theme) sounds straight out of the 70's. Waaay out of date.

    Outside of Michigan, the American consumer believes that Toyota is the quality product, and that Ford/GM is the product that requires deep incentives in order to enable market interest.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buy American View Post
    You bet your ass I am a pro-domistic extremist.

    Anyone who comes up with the lame excuse of purchasing a Toyota that was built here in the USA by American labor and says it's okay has their head buried in the sand. Anyone who says the profits don't go straight to Japan is kidding themselves, because they DO go straight to Japan, which helps THEIR economy. Who are you people supporting anyway? Japan or the United States of America? Japan is where the money you make is going. So, instead of stimulating our economy, you're stimulating Japan's economy. The reason Toyota is cheaper than a comparable US made automobile is because of unfair trade practices by Japan and the fact that Japan artificially devalues their yen so that they can sell their exports cheaper. Another reason is Toyota has only been making a big amount of cars for maybe 20 years, so they don't have a whole lot of retiree pensions to pay out. They don't give the same health care coverage for their U.S. employees as the American car companies do. Another myth is American made cars are overpriced garbage. If you bother to go and test drive a few of the new American made cars by GM, Ford or Chrysler you'll find out that any one of these cars are at least as good, if not better than the new Toyotas selling today. BUY AMERICAN, no more excuses....but I'm sure you'll come up with the same old lame ones anyway.
    3 things:

    #1: In order to PROVE who actually has their head buried in the sand, it would be crucial that you offer some solid citations, instead of just "your word" as the gospel.

    #2: "If you bother to go and test drive a few of the new American made cars by GM, Ford or Chrysler ....." - CORRECTION: Chrysler is now Italian-owned, in case you weren't aware. It has been since 6-months.

    #3: "..... but I'm sure you'll come up with the same old lame ones anyway." - PLAYING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE: Would your excuses above be considered "same old lame" excuses ? Just wondering.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buy American View Post
    You bet your ass I am a pro-domistic extremist.

    Anyone who comes up with the lame excuse of purchasing a Toyota that was built here in the USA by American labor and says it's okay has their head buried in the sand. Anyone who says the profits don't go straight to Japan is kidding themselves, because they DO go straight to Japan, which helps THEIR economy. ....If you bother to go and test drive a few of the new American made cars by GM, Ford or Chrysler you'll find out that any one of these cars are at least as good, if not better than the new Toyotas selling today. BUY AMERICAN, no more excuses....but I'm sure you'll come up with the same old lame ones anyway.
    So, again to sum up; we should all buy Fords, Chrysler or GM cars regardless if they actually employ any Americans to MAKE said car here in the U.S., but we must buy simply because the "profits" stay here. So those Mexican made Fords and Chinese Buicks are "American", but Toyotas made in Tennessee are not.

    Also, how does buying a Chrysler...beingthat it is now an Italian [[fiat will eventually own 55%) company NOT the same as buying a Toyota built here?

  8. #8
    Bearinabox Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by bailey View Post
    So, again to sum up; we should all buy Fords, Chrysler or GM cars regardless if they actually employ any Americans to MAKE said car here in the U.S., but we must buy simply because the "profits" stay here. So those Mexican made Fords and Chinese Buicks are "American", but Toyotas made in Tennessee are not.

    Also, how does buying a Chrysler...beingthat it is now an Italian [[fiat will eventually own 55%) company NOT the same as buying a Toyota built here?
    Tennessee is not "here." Tennessee is the state that elected Bob Corker to the Senate, and as such it can take a flying fuck at the moon as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather send my money to Mexico than Tennessee.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearinabox View Post
    Tennessee is not "here." Tennessee is the state that elected Bob Corker to the Senate, and as such it can take a flying fuck at the moon as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather send my money to Mexico than Tennessee.
    And I'd rather send my money to a right to work state that has the guts to buck the unions - something that has to be done if America is ever going to have any chance of being able to compete in worldwide industry ever again.

  10. #10
    Buy American Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMG View Post
    And I'd rather send my money to a right to work state that has the guts to buck the unions - something that has to be done if America is ever going to have any chance of being able to compete in worldwide industry ever again.
    Without unions there will more than likely be much lower wages for everyone.
    Unions brought low wage workers out of poverty.
    Unions brought more flexibility for work and family needs.
    Unions brought better health care benefits for all workers, not just union members.
    Unions have been credited for bringing more safety and security in the workplace.

    If you want to be paid less than minimum wage and work in a unsafe, unclean, less secure, bullying atmosphere, then buck the union buddy. It doesn't matter to me in the least, I'm set. I'm worried for my kids, their children, my other relatives, my neighbors and my friends. I see what's happening, you don't.

  11. #11
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    Well here's what I have to say about it. I spent the better part of two decades working for a Big 3 company and having to drive its products. Through the years, I put up with mechanical failures and repeated ripoffs by rude and crafty dealer mechanics, where a visit for one problem usually lead to another at a cost of several hundred additional dollars, and yet I loyally kept my smile on, paid through the nose and said nothing because, after all, I wasn't one to bite the hand that fed me.

    My reward for these years of blind loyalty was to see my job outsourced.

    So no more loyalty from me. I now own a Honda, and my wife owns a Kia, and our newfound freedom has worked out better than even we would have ever dreamed. Nine years later we can honestly say we have nowhere NEAR the number of problems with our vehicles as we used to have with our Chryslers. The Honda's had a transmission replacement - fully covered under warranty, but otherwise is running perfectly at 87,000 plus miles, and the Kia's had a thing or two replaced, again, completely under warranty, and also is providing my wife complete satisfaction after over 30,000 miles. Dealer service is cheerful and prompt. Maybe "foreign" dealers work harder, because they know they have to earn respect from their customers rather than be able to count on Big 3 employees who have no choice but to buy what they produce.

    Simply being "an American company" isn't good enough to make up for poor product and poor service. Neither my wife nor I nor any of our friends or family will ever own a Big 3 vehicle again.

    P.S. And nobody's going to "guilt" us by trying to paint us as unpatriotic. These so-called "foreign" dealers employ real Americans in America too. The fact that they might be in states other than Michigan is irrelevant.
    Last edited by EMG; September-28-09 at 02:41 PM.

  12. #12
    Buy American Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMG View Post
    Well here's what I have to say about it. I spent the better part of two decades working for a Big 3 company and having to drive its products. Through the years, I put up with mechanical failures and repeated ripoffs by rude and crafty dealer mechanics, where a visit for one problem usually lead to another at a cost of several hundred additional dollars, and yet I loyally kept my smile on, paid through the nose and said nothing because, after all, I wasn't one to bite the hand that fed me.

    My reward for these years of blind loyalty was to see my job outsourced.

    So no more loyalty from me. I now own a Honda, and my wife owns a Kia, and our newfound freedom has worked out better than even we would have ever dreamed. Nine years later we can honestly say we have nowhere NEAR the number of problems with our vehicles as we used to have with our Chryslers. The Honda's had a transmission replacement - fully covered under warranty, but otherwise is running perfectly at 87,000 plus miles, and the Kia's had a thing or two replaced, again, completely under warranty, and also is providing my wife complete satisfaction after over 30,000 miles. Dealer service is cheerful and prompt. Maybe "foreign" dealers work harder, because they know they have to earn respect from their customers rather than be able to count on Big 3 employees who have no choice but to buy what they produce.

    Simply being "an American company" isn't good enough to make up for poor product and poor service. Neither my wife nor I nor any of our friends or family will ever own a Big 3 vehicle again.

    P.S. And nobody's going to "guilt" us by trying to paint us as unpatriotic. These so-called "foreign" dealers employ real Americans in America too. The fact that they might be in states other than Michigan is irrelevant.
    After working for the better part of two decades for whatever Big 3 company, I'll bet you'll be able to, or are now collecting a modest pension from said company. When that company goes under because of your perceived notion that American cars are pieces of junk, ask Kia or Honda to send you a check equalling your pension amount each month. In your dreams.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buy American View Post
    After working for the better part of two decades for whatever Big 3 company, I'll bet you'll be able to, or are now collecting a modest pension from said company. When that company goes under because of your perceived notion that American cars are pieces of junk, ask Kia or Honda to send you a check equalling your pension amount each month. In your dreams.
    Anybody who honestly believes that there is any chance on earth that "that company" has a fighting chance of NOT "going under" by the time I'm eligible to receive a pension - THAT is the person who is really "dreaming." I'm planning for retirement on the assumption I will receive ZERO, which I most likely will.

    Some people need to get out of denial and wake up to reality. The sooner they do that and move on, the more time they'll have to take the responsibility to secure their own futures. It may have hurt to hear McCain state the obvious when he said "[[the auto) jobs aren't coming back," but that doesn't make it any less the truth. There are reasons why Chrysler and GM went bankrupt while Toyota and Kia didn't. People took Iacocca at his word - they were able to find better cars, and they bought them.

  14. #14
    Buy American Guest

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    I'm posting to a brick wall. Like I said, I'm set, but I hate to see my loved ones, friends and neighbors losing their jobs, their homes, their benefits, one by one. Enough said from me, except

    WHAT YOU DRIVE DRIVES AMERICA.
    OUT OF A JOB YET, KEEP BUYING FOREIGN!

  15. #15
    thatguy123 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buy American View Post
    I'm posting to a brick wall. Like I said, I'm set, but I hate to see my loved ones, friends and neighbors losing their jobs, their homes, their benefits, one by one. Enough said from me, except

    WHAT YOU DRIVE DRIVES AMERICA.
    OUT OF A JOB YET, KEEP BUYING FOREIGN!
    LOL this story, again, shows you are truly the brick wall. http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/workl...own/index.html

    20,000 brand new US jobs says your little capitalized saying is WRONG and that you hold a absolutely ignorant position on an issue you are unfamiliar with.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buy American View Post
    I'm posting to a brick wall. Like I said, I'm set, but I hate to see my loved ones, friends and neighbors losing their jobs, their homes, their benefits, one by one. Enough said from me, except

    WHAT YOU DRIVE DRIVES AMERICA.
    OUT OF A JOB YET, KEEP BUYING FOREIGN!
    Buy American, I can certainly understand your fight and your plight. Frankly, I do not even know you enough to argue with you, but I do hope that for your loved ones' sake that you will help them realize that in order to be viable in the future, they will need to be versatile and not take things for granted.

    As EMG stated above, the union has had a profound influence in history, but those days are in the past. Substantial improvements have occurred through the years, and many new union recruits these days don't even want to be in the union but were forced into contributing to the cause. I know a few of these folks myself.

    You had mentioned time and again that even your own friend, who toiled for a long time as a Chrysler employee, decided NOT to buy a Chrysler product themselves when time comes for a new vehicle. I personally know 4 GM engineers, 2 retired and 2 current Tech Center employees. The 2 retired GM engineers swore that they would never buy any GM products in their lives. That's a bold statement from GM people themselves. The 2 current GM engineers are split, one recommended the 2009 Malibu to me, which I bought ..... while the other engineer prefers to be impartial, saying that although a few GM products have been stellar, there are still other GM products that are just crap.

    Buy American, even if you can't change yourself, your willingness to help your loved ones, friends and neighbors think differently, would go a long way in helping them become more self-sufficient and employable, if they are ever laid-off. Going off on them like you do here on this forum, and forcing them to think exactly like you will do more harm to them than anything else.

  17. #17

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    Buy American,
    I'm calling you out. Why can't you understand that when you buy a Ford, Chrysler, or GM car that is made in Canada or Mexico you are supporting, encouraging and enabling the continued OUTSOURCING of American manufacturing jobs. If the most popular cars in the the big three line up are made in Mexico that will mean more shifts for Mexican autoworkers. Sure the profits come back home. But those profits will only go so far to support workers at plants making models that don't sell. Eventually whole product lines are cut or underselling models are eliminated. This cost jobs. So keep saying there is nothing wrong with buying a Ford made in Mexico and keep watching more American jobs being outsourced. After all, if it's about the profit, there is far more profit to be realized by outsourcing the manufacturing of "domestic" cars to Mexico. The autoworkers of Mexico say "muy gracias Buy American".

    Your failure to understand this point illustrates your inability to grasp the complex nature of this argument. If your goal is to support American autoworkers then buy cars built ONLY by American autoworkers. Simple as that. Even the UAW supports the idea of choosing "domestic" cars manufactured in America. They, at one time, listed cars that were better choices than others based on where they were manufactured. Wake up Buy America and live up to the ideal of your chosen moniker.
    Last edited by detrola; September-29-09 at 08:17 AM.

  18. #18

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    If free trade is fair, then why do we allow Asia to tax and tariff our products to the point that only few things are purchased?If trade is to be truly fair, then should we not impose the same restrictions on them as they do on us?
    Maybe if we all decided that free trade was the answer to all our problems, I would be able to purchase affordable Health, home, and Auto insurance, from south east Asia. Fair is fair, right?
    Sure you say what about all the people that work in the insurance industry, and all the jobs that would be lost from people that feed off the insurance industry. That would not be at all acceptable would it? Those people would lose their jobs, just like I lost my job as a tool & die maker [[for 30 years). They would have to re-train and re-educate themselves just as I must do. Almost a half million people un employed in Michigan. When will Uncle Sam wake up? He will never wake up, because he is trying to be the head of a one world government.

  19. #19

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    Good points phact! I would like affordable health insurance from Korea.

    FWIW My daughter will be 16 in January and her dream car is a Mustang Covertible. When I took her on the Woodward cruise with me she spent the whole time ogling the mustangs and berating those that dared to bring a foreign make car out to Woodward.
    Last edited by CountrySquire; September-29-09 at 12:30 PM.

  20. #20

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    That's a good girl. May I asume that the fruit didn't fall to far from the tree?

  21. #21

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    Michigan is just another place on the map. What's so special about our area that we need a factory more than Georgia? Those people in Georgia are humans, too. Some of you act like they're not. Just because they're in some far off land does not mean their emotions don't mean a thing.

  22. #22
    Buy American Guest

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    When Detroit is a ghost town and the State of Michigan is a wasteland I hope you foreign buyers choke on your lame excuses not to support the U.S.A.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buy American View Post
    When Detroit is a ghost town and the State of Michigan is a wasteland I hope you foreign buyers choke on your lame excuses not to support the U.S.A.
    Well, last night I went over to the Chevy dealer to talk about a Equinox. 18 weeks until they'll have one that wasnt stripped down model...those you only had to wait 4. My lease is up on my current vehicle Friday. 4.5 months to get the vehicle I want? Thanks for playing Chevy. It's not a fucking Wii, manufactured shortages do not increase demand, they just cause your customer to look elsewhere. Also, don't get me started with several of the "domestics" i tried to visit this weekend that were not open Saturday...or were only open 11-3. I mean are you serious? Why are you making me work this hard to buy your product?

    Businesses fail because they are run badly. end of story. the only ones to blame are the buisnesses.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bailey View Post
    Well, last night I went over to the Chevy dealer to talk about a Equinox. 18 weeks until they'll have one that wasnt stripped down model...those you only had to wait 4. My lease is up on my current vehicle Friday. 4.5 months to get the vehicle I want? Thanks for playing Chevy. It's not a fucking Wii, manufactured shortages do not increase demand, they just cause your customer to look elsewhere. Also, don't get me started with several of the "domestics" i tried to visit this weekend that were not open Saturday...or were only open 11-3. I mean are you serious? Why are you making me work this hard to buy your product?

    Businesses fail because they are run badly. end of story. the only ones to blame are the buisnesses.
    That bottom line is exactly correct. It is laughable how the BuyAmerican and union types think the world owes them their loyalty regardless of how poorly they treat the customer.

    Sorry, but these people need to get their heads out of Oz and back into the real world. The examples you point out further prove my point. How well I remember the days where dealers would have their properties vandalized if they DARED to offer Saturday hours. I've been out of the area for several years now and would have hoped that by now even Detroit's unions would have moved beyond this greedy, petty childishness. But no. I remember the night before Chrysler declared bankruptcy, the UAW local had a letter posted whining that they would not be "the low hanging fruit." It is exactly this attitude that is responsible for the miserable position in which the Big Three find themselves today.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buy American View Post
    When Detroit is a ghost town and the State of Michigan is a wasteland I hope you foreign buyers choke on your lame excuses not to support the U.S.A.
    Yes, but just think how the towns in Mexico that build the "domestic" Ford Fusion and Cadillac SRX will be bustling!

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