Foreign Cars.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "it's time to come up with new jobs in new fields for all of us."

So they can be outsourced to China. Like Solar panels that were going to replace the automotive jobs. Oops, they went to China already.

[darwinism]

Would this thread even exist if her "dream car" had been a Chevrolet Aveo? Probably not. Yet that "American" car is also made in South Korea. I've had this arguement several times here with BuyAmerican. Why is a Kentucky built Camry or an Ohio built Honda less American than a Mexican built Fusion? Profits going overseas? Bullshit. What about the property taxes from the plant, the contributions to local areas, the income tax from the workers, etc? What do the Mexicans building the Ford Fusion contribute? I've also said this before: I never have and never will drive anything but a Ford, GM, or Chrysler. Why did GM decide to build the new version of the Cadillac SRX in Mexico? Weren't the workers at the Lansing Grand River plant good enough for them? I could go on because this topic gets my blood boiling.

In all seriousness, folks, we have had this exact discussion many, many, many times, right here on this forum. And like wash_man, I too have seen BuyAmerican's time-warped arguments over and over again.

Listen ..... it is time we accept reality, O.K. ? These events have already occurred, and there is absolutely no reason to debate factual details.

#1: On April 30, 2009, Chrysler filed Chapter 11 and today, it is owned by Italian automaker Fiat. So, let's just put that to bed, alright ?

#2: On June 1, 2009, GM filed Chapter 11 and today, it is majority owned by the United States Treasury, UAW VEBA and Canadian governments. So, let's just put that to bed as well, alright ?

I would be sick, too. A friend of ours, who always bought American, gets a small pension from Chrysler from working there many years ago, bought a KIA. I couldn't believe it and then they had the nerve to ask me what I thought about it. I couldn't contain myself and told them that when the checks stopped from Chrysler, maybe KIA would send them a pension.

I was also sickened by the fact that the Cash for Clunkers program helped foreign automakers more than the big 3. What a farse....I am starting to not trust my government.

Perhaps your Chrysler-employee friend knows better.

Cash for Clunkers did in fact help sell more Toyotas and Hondas, than Chevys and Fords. At the same time, did you know which state came up on top for the Cash of Clunkers program ? Yep, good ol' Michigan. Something sure smells fishy somehow ..... I don't about you, but I am beginning to think that this Cash for Clunkers program seems to be a little bit suspicious.

At any rate, back on the topic of domestic vs. foreign cars ..... why don't we agree on 1 simple fact - There is only 1 true American car company now, and it is Ford. But even then, please be civil enough to acknowledge that even Ford vehicles are not 100% American per se, because its parts are mainly foreign parts and majority of them are assembled on foreign soil.

[jtf1972]

How is Protectionism such an evil? We are a nation that forces our business to play by capitalist rules in a global economy that typically does not play by those same rules. Much of our manufacturing is actually done in a nation that regularly conducts activities that are designed to do harm to our nation. How is it that China can be a political enemy, but economically we are in bed with them?

This thread is about both the family matter AND the notion that foreign crap is better than local crap. George W.. Bush wanted to make it illegal to tag merchandise & food with the country of origin. Maybe some people out there would rather eat strawberries grown in Iran, but I'd rather pay an extra dollar and have mine picked by illegal Mexicans in California, dammit!

[lilpup]

But even then, please be civil enough to acknowledge that even Ford vehicles are not 100% American per se, because its parts are mainly foreign parts and majority of them are assembled on foreign soil.

Double check the stats on that - their biggest sellers are US built.

[terryh]

I had the 'buy American' mentality, bought new and used American cars that turned out to be mechanical money traps. Purchased an 01 Corrolla [[not sure where it was designed and assembled) and when it was totaled by the State Farm at 92,000 miles with only a Serpentine belt replacement I purhased a 90 Riviera low miles and a complex ignition problem that cost me a fortune and then a97 Skylark that was a mechanical disaster. Hate to say it but will probably go foreign again.

When I was a striking Kroger worker in 92 some UAW members showed up for a day to walk and we never seen them again...some solidarity huh?

[darwinism]

Double check the stats on that - their biggest sellers are US built.

Stats check - Done !

2009/2010 model Ford F-150, Ford Focus: US Built.

2009/2010 model Ford Fusion, Lincoln MKZ and Mercury Milan: Hermosillo, Mexico.

[Jared9903]

wow! I really enjoyed reading this thread, I'm very opinionated in this subject, and some of the posters here took the words right out of my mouth! I would never buy foreign, and I certainly do not find all American cars to be bland, as one of the posters stated.

[windsor_shane]

maybe we also need to keep something in mind here.. the author mentioned this is his daughters dream car.. i defiantly think the asian and european car companies are much better at styling their cars towards young people. just look at the kia soul.. is there anything simular in form or style from an american manufacturer? most young people i talk to want what the foreign companies are offering.. its not because they hate america or american car companies... people want what they want... the car companies need to see that... most of my friends want a small sporty coupe, manual transmission and a turbo... that is extremely hard to find in an american car... so should my friends or the daughter of the author by something they dont like?

[darwinism]

wow! I really enjoyed reading this thread, I'm very opinionated in this subject, and some of the posters here took the words right out of my mouth! I would never buy foreign, and I certainly do not find all American cars to be bland, as one of the posters stated.

Personally, I just bought a 2009 Chevy Malibu ..... one of the most "American" vehicle around. And I bought the car before June 1, 2009 - so, GM was still very much an American company at that point in time, although very much tethering on demise nonetheless.

Jared9903, glad that you are committed to buying American automobiles. And when you make such declarations, please be prepared to go to a showroom and sign on the dotted line for a new vehicle, because buying a used American car doesn't really help the cause. As mentioned above, your only option is Ford right now. Let us know when you drive home your 2010 model Ford, Jared9903.

Ladies and gentlemen, you see, I hear from many, many die-hard hard-core American car enthusiasts every single day. But at the end of the day, these folks are just all talk. That's all they do, they swear their devotions to American cars, but guess what ..... they don't put their money where their mouths are.

Why is the Walmart[[I never shop there) lot full of vehicles plastered with pro union stickers????

When I was a striking Kroger worker in 92 some UAW members showed up for a day to walk and we never seen them again...some solidarity huh?

When I bought the 2009 Malibu, the car saleswoman thanked me over and over for choosing a Chevrolet. She said that too many people are just talkers. She is absolutely right, chances are most of the folks right here on DetroitYes who proclaimed that they will never buy foreign, and that they will always buy American ..... well, they are the same people who shop at Wal-Mart, the Dollar Store and driving a pre-2000 GM, Chrysler or Ford vehicle that they bought USED. So much for being pro-domestic cars, posers. In case it is not already obvious enough, from Toolbox and terryh above, the unions are quite the hypocrites.

[luckycar]

She didn't buy it from me and I'm bummed.A used Kia is kind of like an old Alliance/Yugo /Chevette/Festiva/Tercel...crap.

[iheartthed]

The profits from purchasing American cars, whether they were assembled in Canada or timbuckto, stay in the U.S. Why is that so hard for some to understand? Salaries earned by Americans working for foreign automakers stay here but the big profits from the sale of foreign automobiles assembled in the U.S. still go overseas. If I am wrong, please let me know.

Well... in the case of G.M. and Chrysler, yes the profits do stay here. Because our government owns a majority stake in each.

In the case of Ford, which is a publicly traded company, the profits goes to shareholders. Shareholders of American based companies are not required to live in America...

[Jared9903]

Personally, I just bought a 2009 Chevy Malibu ..... one of the most "American" vehicle around. And I bought the car before June 1, 2009 - so, GM was still very much an American company at that point in time, although very much tethering on demise nonetheless.

Jared9903, glad that you are committed to buying American automobiles. And when you make such declarations, please be prepared to go to a showroom and sign on the dotted line for a new vehicle, because buying a used American car doesn't really help the cause. As mentioned above, your only option is Ford right now. Let us know when you drive home your 2010 model Ford, Jared9903.

Ladies and gentlemen, you see, I hear from many, many die-hard hard-core American car enthusiasts every single day. But at the end of the day, these folks are just all talk. That's all they do, they swear their devotions to American cars, but guess what ..... they don't put their money where their mouths are.





When I bought the 2009 Malibu, the car saleswoman thanked me over and over for choosing a Chevrolet. She said that too many people are just talkers. She is absolutely right, chances are most of the folks right here on DetroitYes who proclaimed that they will never buy foreign, and that they will always buy American ..... well, they are the same people who shop at Wal-Mart, the Dollar Store and driving a pre-2000 GM, Chrysler or Ford vehicle that they bought USED. So much for being pro-domestic cars, posers. In case it is not already obvious enough, from Toolbox and terryh above, the unions are quite the hypocrites.

Let me rephrase then, when I buy a car, I JUST did, I want it to be from the Big 3. I dont care if GM sells Pontiacs in Canada and Mexico. They started in Michigan, I am proud of our history, and I want the money I spent to go towards the companies that began a few miles from my house. Just because the taillights were made in France or whereever, it doesnt make it foreign because it supports an american company.
Sure a Honda Accord may be made in Torrence, California, but when you put down your money on that car, the money goes straight to the excecutives in the Honda Headquarters in Japan.
With our state doing as poorly as it is now with employment rates, I want to do what I can.

[wash_man]

Let me rephrase then, when I buy a car, I JUST did, I want it to be from the Big 3. I dont care if GM sells Pontiacs in Canada and Mexico. They started in Michigan, I am proud of our history, and I want the money I spent to go towards the companies that began a few miles from my house. Just because the taillights were made in France or whereever, it doesnt make it foreign because it supports an american company.
Sure a Honda Accord may be made in Torrence, California, but when you put down your money on that car, the money goes straight to the excecutives in the Honda Headquarters in Japan.
With our state doing as poorly as it is now with employment rates, I want to do what I can.

You forgot a few steps with the money. Before any money goes to Japan, the local workers get paid and spend the money in their local community to live. Also, the plant pays huge tax bills to support schools, fire, police, etc. Which is exactly why I'm anti-Ford Fusion. The locals [[Mexicans) get most of the money. What is left returns to Dearborn.

[krapug1]

Just to give an example here, I am 48 years old, and have never owned an
American made car.

When I was 18 and saved up for my first car back in 1979, my Father who worked for Chrysler, begged me NOT to buy a Chrysler product.

He knew that I would drive the heck out of any car, and as we worked in Government Affairs he knew the myriad of issues with Chrysler products back then.

The end result being I bought a car through the Chrysler dealer network, a Plymouth Champ, which was a 100% Mitsubishi product, but with the Plymouth name on it.

Fast forward to today, I drive a 1996 Saab 900SE, and a 1991 Saab 900S.
The both have about 170,000. miles on them, and they have required nothing more than regular maint., and one new clutch. Both of these cars are good for at least 300,000. miles. For the record neither have a GM engine.

I have NEVER had a car payment since 1984, and do not plan on having one ever again. I to this day, save up to buy a car, and then buy something that I know will go the distance.

What American made car can go the distamce ?

Ken

[DC48080]

While it is true that this entire region's economy was based on one industry for decades, and we did fail to diversify, that is no reason to turn our backs on the domestic auto manufacturers. The fact is that this area still depends on the domestic auto industry, even in it's shrunken state, for the bulk of employment around here either directly or indirectly.

Nor is it a good reason to abandon American makes because your 1977 Chevrolet would not start one morning 30 years ago. The big three did make some crappy cars in the past and so did the Japanese. But today's GM cars equal and in many cases surpass the quality of most imports.

The next time one considers buying an imported car they should stop and think about their relative or their neighbor who has lost his or her job because of the decline in the domestic automobile industry. You never know, you could be next.

Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign.

[jtf1972]

“The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them.” - Vladimir Lenon

Lenon could never have comprehended that one day, we would buy the rope from them to hang ourselves.

[Buy American]

While it is true that this entire region's economy was based on one industry for decades, and we did fail to diversify, that is no reason to turn our backs on the domestic auto manufacturers. The fact is that this area still depends on the domestic auto industry, even in it's shrunken state, for the bulk of employment around here either directly or indirectly.

Nor is it a good reason to abandon American makes because your 1977 Chevrolet would not start one morning 30 years ago. The big three did make some crappy cars in the past and so did the Japanese. But today's GM cars equal and in many cases surpass the quality of most imports.

The next time one considers buying an imported car they should stop and think about their relative or their neighbor who has lost his or her job because of the decline in the domestic automobile industry. You never know, you could be next.

Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign.

Thank you.

[wash_man]

While it is true that this entire region's economy was based on one industry for decades, and we did fail to diversify, that is no reason to turn our backs on the domestic auto manufacturers. The fact is that this area still depends on the domestic auto industry, even in it's shrunken state, for the bulk of employment around here either directly or indirectly.

Nor is it a good reason to abandon American makes because your 1977 Chevrolet would not start one morning 30 years ago. The big three did make some crappy cars in the past and so did the Japanese. But today's GM cars equal and in many cases surpass the quality of most imports.

The next time one considers buying an imported car they should stop and think about their relative or their neighbor who has lost his or her job because of the decline in the domestic automobile industry. You never know, you could be next.

Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign.

You guys just don't get it. Most people here aren't bashing the Big3 cars. The problem is that many [[if not most) or their vehicles are built OUTSIDE the U.S. That makes them FOREIGN in my book. I've also said THIS on many other threads: What if [[hypothetically) Ford, GM and Chrysler moved ALL of their production outside of the U.S.? Would you still not consider their cars foreign? BTW, if the trend keeps up, this won't be hypothetical, it will be reality. What jobs will they provide THEN? Accounting and marketing for a select few? If they want their cars considered domestic, then build them HERE!

[DC48080]

You guys just don't get it. Most people here aren't bashing the Big3 cars. The problem is that many [[if not most) or their vehicles are built OUTSIDE the U.S. That makes them FOREIGN in my book. I've also said THIS on many other threads: What if [[hypothetically) Ford, GM and Chrysler moved ALL of their production outside of the U.S.? Would you still not consider their cars foreign? BTW, if the trend keeps up, this won't be hypothetical, it will be reality. What jobs will they provide THEN? Accounting and marketing for a select few? If they want their cars considered domestic, then build them HERE!

Yes, a small amount of components of Big Three vehicles are sourced from overseas. [[My current GM vehicle contains 91% American made content according to the window stcker). But the profits from the purchase of the vehicles stay here in the U.S. The profits from the purchase of foreign cars go overseas.

And as to your hypothetical about GM, Ford and Chrysler moving all their production overseas: If that were to happen I would still purchase their products as long as the companies were headquartered here.

[xD_Brklyn]

In all seriousness, folks, we have had this exact discussion many, many, many times, right here on this forum.

Why does this conversation happen about once a month on this forum? Why don't the US car companies have some Think Tank that produces statistics, studies, white papers, ads, etc. documenting that buying American is better for Americans? Why is left to the unions or internet forums to answer this question?

I don't know but it seems like it would be worth their time and money to put some research into this question. I'll never drive anything but a Detroit-based product but that's because I have family and friends in the industry, so no argument is needed, but for others? It's odd that they have failed to follow up on the benefits of being US-based.

[wash_man]

Yes, a small amount of components of Big Three vehicles are sourced from overseas. [[My current GM vehicle contains 91% American made content according to the window stcker). But the profits from the purchase of the vehicles stay here in the U.S. The profits from the purchase of foreign cars go overseas.

And as to your hypothetical about GM, Ford and Chrysler moving all their production overseas: If that were to happen I would still purchase their products as long as the companies were headquartered here.

Re-check your window sticker. I'm sure it says "North American" content, not "American", thus it includes Mexico and Canada. Very deceptive.

[wash_man]

Why does this conversation happen about once a month on this forum? Why don't the US car companies have some Think Tank that produces statistics, studies, white papers, ads, etc. documenting that buying American is better for Americans? Why is left to the unions or internet forums to answer this question?

I don't know but it seems like it would be worth their time and money to put some research into this question. I'll never drive anything but a Detroit-based product but that's because I have family and friends in the industry, so no argument is needed, but for others? It's odd that they have failed to follow up on the benefits of being US-based.

They are not talking about it because they don't want consumers to know where they build their cars. Most Fusion owners have no idea that it was assembled outside of the U.S. and I'm sure Ford would like to keep it that way. The window sticker says "final assembly location: Hermisillo" I guess most people just assume that's some where in our south west region. My question is why has it taken so long for the UAW to complain about it publicly like they are now doing at the Chrysler Sterling Heights Assembly Plant? Those people know for a fact that next year their plant will close and the operations are moving to Mexico to produce another "American" car.

[tahleel]

Let me rephrase then, when I buy a car, I JUST did, I want it to be from the Big 3. I dont care if GM sells Pontiacs in Canada and Mexico. They started in Michigan, I am proud of our history, and I want the money I spent to go towards the companies that began a few miles from my house.

What do you mean goes towards that company? Your money goes towards buying/building plants in foreign countries. It goes towards buying parts from foreign suppliers. It goes towards employing foreign workers, to build your American car. The profits do not stay "here." A foreign or out-of-state investor can invest into the companies and any "profits" would go to them, not to you.

Just because the taillights were made in France or whereever, it doesnt make it foreign because it supports an american company.

When more than HALF or TWO-THIRDS of the parts are manufactured in a foreign company, and the vehicle is assembled in a foreign country, what part of it makes it American?

Sure a Honda Accord may be made in Torrence, California, but when you put down your money on that car, the money goes straight to the excecutives in the Honda Headquarters in Japan.

NO! It doesn't go to the executives in Japan. The money that went towards buying that Accord went towards paying for the plant on American soil. It paid for American workers to assemble the vehicle. American executives to make management decisions. Any profits left over goes to shareholders. Those investors can be both American or foreign. Just like how Daimler [[German) owned 80%+ of Chrysler.

-Tahleel

[tahleel]

Why does this conversation happen about once a month on this forum? Why don't the US car companies have some Think Tank that produces statistics, studies, white papers, ads, etc. documenting that buying American is better for Americans? Why is left to the unions or internet forums to answer this question?

Why would an American car company spend money on research, only to expose that they truly aren't even American?

-Tahleel

[wazootyman]

I work for a supplier that is owned by 4 very large Japanese companies and the last time I checked I WAS NOT paid in Yen. Should I give up my well paying job because you don't like competition?

What you're failing to acknowledge is that while foreign-owned employment has increased, overall automotive employment in this country has fallen dramatically. Not all of it can be blamed on rising sales of foreign automobiles; outsourcing by the big three has certainly had its effects. Regardless, at no point will foreign-owned jobs make up for those lost during the decline of the big three.

Some numbers can be found in this report from 2004: http://www.trade.gov/static/auto_reports_jobloss.pdf

Just to give an example here, I am 48 years old, and have never owned an American made car.
[...]
What American made car can go the distamce ?

How would you know, you've never given one a chance? You're making present-day purchasing decisions on a recommendation given 30 years ago. You can't realistically compare a 1979 'anything' to a 2009, foreign or domestic. I own two dometic vehicles - both Saturn, both made in this country. Excellent vehicles I've had next to no problems with.

You guys just don't get it. Most people here aren't bashing the Big3 cars. The problem is that many [[if not most) or their vehicles are built OUTSIDE the U.S. That makes them FOREIGN in my book.

No. At the end of 2008, GM operated more plants than all foreign automakers combined. It's reckless to state 'facts' when you've obviously done zero research to back up your claims. Moreover, when considering percent domestic content, GM, Ford and Chrysler come in as the top-three with 69%, 64% and 60%, respectively.

http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2009/index.cfm
http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/f...act_sheet1.pdf
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...utomakers.html

Beside, only about 50% of the money from the purchase of a vehicle goes to assembly and materials. The other 50% goes to R&D/engineering, overhead, employee benefits, selling costs, etc. Having worked in the automotive industry for some time, I can positively state there are a lot of people working for Ford in Dearborn that have no direct involvement in assembly, but their livelihood still has strong ties to the fate of the company.

http://msl1.mit.edu/classes/esd123/vyas.pdf

Re-check your window sticker. I'm sure it says "North American" content, not "American", thus it includes Mexico and Canada. Very deceptive.

Not true. Since 1994, the American Automobile Labeling Act [[AALA) dictates that American and Canadian content are shown together - this does not include Mexico, and most of the window stickers I've seen [[maybe all - can't say for sure) specify US/Canadian Parts Content. In addition, the source of the engine and the transmission are specifically called out by country.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/Cars/rules/...te/809208.html

It's not deceptive unless you don't actually read the label.

The biggest problem I've seen with the anti-pro-domestic [[or pro-foreign?) arguments is that many of them lack factual content; it's mostly heresay, union-bashing, or opinions formed on some lousy car they had 20+ years ago.

My opinion is that if you live in Metro Detroit, you're welcome to buy whatever you want. But if you buy a foreign car, you are not allowed to complain about empty storefronts, increased crime, bankrupt communities, layoffs, poor job prospects, or anything of the sort. I don't care if you blame unions, the governer, poor executive decisions - regardless, your short-sighted, selfish purchase decision makes a contribution towards the demise of our primary economic engine.