Hummer HQ: Detroit or Auburn Hills?

crawford · September-23-09, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

No problem PCE. I found the story on clickondetroit.com as well. They don't have the video up yet but the story will do. My man Glenn Rush Jr. aka crawford had breathed so much helium on BizarroWorld he won't believe his beloved Oakland County is suffering through hard times. It's funny though because I didn't believe someone could be so clueless about the financial situation here in Michigan.

LOL, nice try trying to conflate Oakland County with Michigan, and then exaggerating a Freep non-story about budget negotiations.

But the best has to be your ad-hominem attack that I must be Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh because I prefer Huntington Woods over the ghetto, educated folks over ignorant Yahoos, and progressive, secular society over religious nuts in the hood!

**dbc** · September-23-09, 08:16 PM

For what it's worth, Oakland County had the 48th highest per capita income in 2007. Santa Clara was ranked 28th.

I'm quite sure these are the latest figures from the Bureau of Economic Analysis, which is part of the Department of Commerce.

Here's the link: http://money.aol.com/article/50-muni...est-per/490738.

**PCE** · September-23-09, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by crawford

LOL, nice try trying to conflate Oakland County with Michigan, and then exaggerating a Freep non-story about budget negotiations.

But the best has to be your ad-hominem attack that I must be Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh because I prefer Huntington Woods over the ghetto, educated folks over ignorant Yahoos, and progressive, secular society over religious nuts in the hood!

I'm not trying to be disrespectful or call you out but I"m wondering where does all this hatred come from? Where's your compassion? I have neighbors in Detroit whose children walk past drug dealers and prostitutes to get to school. I live 2000 miles away in Montana and so if I can have neighbors in Detroit, can't you from Oakland county?

**R8RBOB** · September-23-09, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by crawford

LOL, nice try trying to conflate Oakland County with Michigan, and then exaggerating a Freep non-story about budget negotiations.

But the best has to be your ad-hominem attack that I must be Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh because I prefer Huntington Woods over the ghetto, educated folks over ignorant Yahoos, and progressive, secular society over religious nuts in the hood!

Ha Ha Ha.....I need a good laugh but the reason I refer to you as Glenn Rush Jr. is because both Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh have a nasty habit of creating imaginary facts out of thin air when there is real facts to dispute the imaginary facts that they are trying to sell like you on Oakland County when most level-headed human beings who have been affected by the economy in Michigan know what the real deal is.

I leave with a greeting someone used to give me.

Cheers....

**Russix** · September-23-09, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by PCE

I wish we could somehow get rid of this suburb/city thing and start thinking regionally. The ship is sinking.

A sinking ship will either bring out the best or the worst. Unfortunately, only history will be able to judge us.

crawford · September-24-09, 01:02 AM

Originally Posted by dbc

For what it's worth, Oakland County had the 48th highest per capita income in 2007. Santa Clara was ranked 28th.

I'm quite sure these are the latest figures from the Bureau of Economic Analysis, which is part of the Department of Commerce.

Here's the link: http://money.aol.com/article/50-muni...st-per/490738.

I said that Oakland County has the third highest income for counties above one million residents, which is true,

A list of all counties is pretty much useless for apples-to-apples comparisons, because there are counties with 400 residents, counties with 10 million residents, and tiny city-county hybrids in many states.

The fact is that among major U.S. counties, the only counties wealther than Oakland are the Capital of the World [[Manhattan) and the wealth center of the Nation's Capital Region [[Fairfax County, VA).

**rb336** · September-24-09, 09:53 AM

1. They already live in Oakland County, and will have a much shorter commute

"they" don't necessarily even live in Michigan

2. Their salary will be higher in Oakland County, and they won't have to pay for crap like parking

the parking - yeah, probably. salary higher? doubt it

3. There is more creative class stuff in Oakland County than in Detroit. Bham, R.O., Ferndale, etc. are generally more appealing places to hang out than downtown Detroit. There are some things downtown, but not nearly as much as along the Woodward Corridor in Oakland County.

very debateable. more "vanilla" pseudo-artsy stuff, perhaps. not a damn thing with any edge

4. Not everyone who is young and creative prefers an urban environment. I would guess most prefer a suburban environment, just like the rest of the U.S.

yeah, troy just oozes with young creative types.

And I'm not even going to address the issue of linking an evil, right-wing old man entity like Hummer to "young creative types".

you may have something there

**digitalvision** · September-24-09, 10:15 AM

Oddly I just had a conversation with 9 young, 20-something creatives, 5 women, 4 guys. They're designers, marketers - and where do they all live? Ferndale, Troy and Royal Oak.

Seriously. I was sorta blown away. It actually changed my view a bit.

They'd never consider the city - I brought it up after a work meeting, just for fun, remembering this thread.

"I won't live in Detroit. No services. Troy just cut their libraries, but my streets get plowed in winter. I don't have a library, but I won't have my house broken into."

"The cops won't come."

"Downtown Royal Oak is way more walkable than downtown Detroit. And I'm not scared I'm going to get jumped."

"There's no homeless people."

"Detroit doesn't like gay people."

"My friends are all in Royal Oak. I wanna live where my friends are"

"Downtown of the metro region is Royal Oak. It's not snobby like Birmingham, but not broke ass like Detroit."

Just food for thought. I think that even the cut services in Troy are better than Detroit's best services, in the eyes of many. They know Detroit, I've taken then drinking in Detroit, they go to Tiger games, they go to Wings games. They all want mass transit so they can come down to events, but typically, they use the Night Move right now and it serves their needs.

**Detroitej72** · September-24-09, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by crawford

LOL, nice try trying to conflate Oakland County with Michigan,

Last time I looked, Oakland County is located in the state of Michigan, despite your opinion that it's an island unto itself.

Originally Posted by crawford

I prefer Huntington Woods over the ghetto, educated folks over ignorant Yahoos, and progressive, secular society over religious nuts in the hood!

Ahh, now the zebra is showing it's stripes. Good to see you generalize the whole city of Detroit as ghetto and uneducated, and show your pure hatred toward it. We always know it by your irrational rants, but you've confirmed it for us now.

By the way, if you love the O.C. so much, why don't you move there?

**iheartthed** · September-24-09, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by crawford

Uh, no.

I know a high school friend who just moved from San Francisco to Birmingham, MI. So what?

He's thrilled to be in a place he can actually afford, and has a great job.

Sorry, I'll trust the official Census data more than your anecdotal observations.

Actually, Oakland County's own web site sites the county as being number 4... And that is from a source compiled in 2004. So as I said before, I would be a bit surprised if the O.C. is still even in the top 10.

http://www.oakgov.com/peds/assets/do...y%20richest%22

And your friend only moved to Birmingham because he's from there.

**R8RBOB** · September-24-09, 11:08 AM

This just in: Lord Patterson need to cut salaries in Oakland County. Man, I was starting to buy crawford's jive that Oakland Co. was making money. Those taxes just aren't rolling in like they used to.

**R8RBOB** · September-24-09, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by digitalvision

Oddly I just had a conversation with 9 young, 20-something creatives, 5 women, 4 guys. They're designers, marketers - and where do they all live? Ferndale, Troy and Royal Oak.

Seriously. I was sorta blown away. It actually changed my view a bit.

They'd never consider the city - I brought it up after a work meeting, just for fun, remembering this thread.

"I won't live in Detroit. No services. Troy just cut their libraries, but my streets get plowed in winter. I don't have a library, but I won't have my house broken into."

"The cops won't come."

"Downtown Royal Oak is way more walkable than downtown Detroit. And I'm not scared I'm going to get jumped."

"There's no homeless people."

"Detroit doesn't like gay people."

"My friends are all in Royal Oak. I wanna live where my friends are"

"Downtown of the metro region is Royal Oak. It's not snobby like Birmingham, but not broke ass like Detroit."

Just food for thought. I think that even the cut services in Troy are better than Detroit's best services, in the eyes of many. They know Detroit, I've taken then drinking in Detroit, they go to Tiger games, they go to Wings games. They all want mass transit so they can come down to events, but typically, they use the Night Move right now and it serves their needs.

Just two questions.

1) Are the twenty-somethings all White?
2) Were they all born in Metro Detroit or transplants?

**Detroitej72** · September-24-09, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

This just in: Lord Patterson need to cut salaries in Oakland County. Man, I was starting to buy crawford's jive that Oakland Co. was making money. Those taxes just aren't rolling in like they used to.

But wait, I thought Oakland Co. was raining money, say it ain't so!

**Gistok** · September-24-09, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by crawford

I said that Oakland County has the third highest income for counties above one million residents, which is true,

A list of all counties is pretty much useless for apples-to-apples comparisons, because there are counties with 400 residents, counties with 10 million residents, and tiny city-county hybrids in many states.

The fact is that among major U.S. counties, the only counties wealther than Oakland are the Capital of the World [[Manhattan) and the wealth center of the Nation's Capital Region [[Fairfax County, VA).

Sounds like you need to go back and redo your fuzzy math Crawford... the statistics don't agree with you....

Starting with your own backyard....

Over 1 Million

1. New York NY $120,790... 2003 pop. est. 1,564,798
2. Fairfax Co. VA $67,909.... 2003 pop. est. 1,000,405
3. Nassau Co. NY $62,981.... 2003 pop. est. 1,339,463
4. Palm Beach Co. FL $59,147.... 2003 pop. est. 1,216,282
5. Middlesex Co. MA $58,777.... 2003 pop. est. 1,471,724
6. Hennepin Co. MN $56,280.... 2003 pop. est. 1,120,897
7. Oakland Co. MI $55,207.... 2003 pop. est. 1,207,869

... and I didn't even go thru the entire list of 50 counties....

The populations above were gotten from this source, which references US Census statistics:
http://www.epodunk.com/top10/countyPop/coPop33.html

**iheartthed** · September-24-09, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Sounds like you need to go back and redo your fuzzy math Crawford... the statistics don't agree with you....

Starting with your own backyard....

Over 1 Million

1. New York NY $120,790... 2003 pop. est. 1,564,798
2. Fairfax Co. VA $67,909.... 2003 pop. est. 1,000,405
3. Nassau Co. NY $62,981.... 2003 pop. est. 1,339,463
4. Palm Beach Co. FL $59,147.... 2003 pop. est. 1,216,282
5. Middlesex Co. MA $58,777.... 2003 pop. est. 1,471,724
6. Hennepin Co. MN $56,280.... 2003 pop. est. 1,120,897
7. Oakland Co. MI $55,207.... 2003 pop. est. 1,207,869

... and I didn't even go thru the entire list of 50 counties....

The populations above were gotten from this source, which references US Census statistics:
http://www.epodunk.com/top10/countyPop/coPop33.html

THANK YOU! I spent an hour last night looking for that %*$#ing list. And those numbers are pre-national recession... I am almost certain that Oakland isn't even in the top 10 anymore.

**MotownSpartan** · September-24-09, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitej72

Last time I looked, Oakland County is located in the state of Michigan, despite your opinion that it's an island unto itself.

Ahh, now the zebra is showing it's stripes. Good to see you generalize the whole city of Detroit as ghetto and uneducated, and show your pure hatred toward it. We always know it by your irrational rants, but you've confirmed it for us now.

By the way, if you love the O.C. so much, why don't you move there?

Not to stand up for the poster bashing/generalizing Detroit but my personal experience is that people, generally, tend to be yahoos and less accepting of different lifestyles in Detroit proper than in areas like Ferndale/Royal Oak. This is crazy because it's the exact opposite of how it should be and how it is in most cities. However, I think it's partially explained by the high illiteracy rates [[up to 50% functionally illiterate in the city), strong influence of relatively puritanical christian churches [[See recent strip club debates and colt 45 debates in front of council), and high levels of unemployment and the culture that is created by this environment. Just even in terms of driving through many areas of the city I notice that people don't follow traffic rules, cut each other off and generally act like jerks.

Now, this doesn't mean that all people in the city are all like this or that suburbs, again generally, aren't more homogeneous/static places but it's just a personal observation. Unfortunately, the dynamics in most cities that lend them towards being places where eccentricity thrives and diversity is welcomed are sorely lacking in large segments of Detroit's population and in the region's population. I think this could all change but we need a different make-up in the city to get this started [[read at least more young, educated folks).

**Locke09** · September-24-09, 09:50 PM

No matter how many churches Detroit has, and how many people profess to be Christians, Detroit is far from "puritanical". Just because people don't want strip clubs in their neighborhood does not make them puritanical. How many strip clubs are in those more enlightened cities everyone prefers? There are over 30 in Detroit. Puritanical? Please! Poor yahoo illiterate Detroiters. They don't have good appreciation for cultured institutions like strip clubs. Please!

And just because someone wants to sing "Onward Christian Soldiers", offkey, at the Council table, does not make the entire city puritanical. And just because someone doesn't embrace every lifestyle does not make them a "yahoo". Amazing how closed-minded open-minded people are.

Anyway, it appears Oakland County is not even in the top 20 anymore. http://econompicdata.blogspot.com/20...by-county.html

Guess their capital Pontiac brought them down.

**Locke09** · September-24-09, 10:12 PM

Not that Wikipedia is the best source, but here are the current top 20:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest..._United_States

Various counties in New Jersey beat out Oakland County. Imagine that.

I don't have anything against Oakland County. Some of my best friends live in Oakland County. It's just that actual data is so very accessible these days, there's no point in making unsubstantiated statements.

**MotownSpartan** · September-24-09, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by Locke09

No matter how many churches Detroit has, and how many people profess to be Christians, Detroit is far from "puritanical". Just because people don't want strip clubs in their neighborhood does not make them puritanical. How many strip clubs are in those more enlightened cities everyone prefers? There are over 30 in Detroit. Puritanical? Please! Poor yahoo illiterate Detroiters. They don't have good appreciation for cultured institutions like strip clubs. Please!

And just because someone wants to sing "Onward Christian Soldiers", offkey, at the Council table, does not make the entire city puritanical. And just because someone doesn't embrace every lifestyle does not make them a "yahoo". Amazing how closed-minded open-minded people are.

Anyway, it appears Oakland County is not even in the top 20 anymore. http://econompicdata.blogspot.com/20...by-county.html

Guess their capital Pontiac brought them down.

Maybe puritanical wasn't the best choice. I guess I meant to say that some people might consider the church leaders' influence in Detroit politics to be higher than comparable places. These churches promote non-secular visions for the city that often aren't inclusive of those in the LGBT community [[for example). Members of these churches also tend to be less secular than members of other brands of Christianity.

**digitalvision** · September-24-09, 10:41 PM

R8RBOB:

6 White, 2 African-Americans, 1 Asian-american.

As to the transplant thing, two are for sure [[one of those is from another country, I want to say Germany). The others I believe are from Metro Detroit - the two black guys happen to have lived and grew up in the city of Detroit. They're never coming back, they made that clear - I know one is a DPS grad for sure. They're in Southfield and Royal Oak.

**R8RBOB** · September-25-09, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by digitalvision

R8RBOB:

6 White, 2 African-Americans, 1 Asian-american.

As to the transplant thing, two are for sure [[one of those is from another country, I want to say Germany). The others I believe are from Metro Detroit - the two black guys happen to have lived and grew up in the city of Detroit. They're never coming back, they made that clear - I know one is a DPS grad for sure. They're in Southfield and Royal Oak.

Ok, that clears up your comments for me.

The two black guys. Since they grew up in Detroit, they know what awaits them if they return.

1) High taxes on property
2) High car insurance
3) Bad schools
4) City of renters
5) No new housing

I could put crime there, but crime happens everywhere so crime is not a factor. I have been back 5 years and other than having my tires slashed, nothing serious to make me flee. I can't blame them for not wanting to return. It is not financial viable right now to come to Detroit unless you have too.

As for the six Whites and the Asian, well I understand them not wanting to come to Detroit. They grew up in a time where Detroit was/is a warzone and it is a Black city. The suburbs is all they know and I don't frown on them for their choice

Before I moved to the Bay Area in 2000, I hated the suburbs. I loved getting stopped by the police and being asked what am I'm doing out there. After moving to the Bay, I had to live in the suburbs because The City, Oaktown and San Josie was too expensive to stay in and I started appreciate the burbs. Even the ones here.

Detroit's biggest mistake was not making mass transit a priority. To be a major city and not have transit was a sin though one could argue that the power structure didn't want mass transit because it would have opened the suburbs to Blacks and there was those who wanted to keep the suburbs White as long as they could.[[Think of Orville Hubbard as a starting point)

crawford · September-25-09, 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Sounds like you need to go back and redo your fuzzy math Crawford... the statistics don't agree with you....

Starting with your own backyard....

Over 1 Million

1. New York NY $120,790... 2003 pop. est. 1,564,798
2. Fairfax Co. VA $67,909.... 2003 pop. est. 1,000,405
3. Nassau Co. NY $62,981.... 2003 pop. est. 1,339,463
4. Palm Beach Co. FL $59,147.... 2003 pop. est. 1,216,282
5. Middlesex Co. MA $58,777.... 2003 pop. est. 1,471,724
6. Hennepin Co. MN $56,280.... 2003 pop. est. 1,120,897
7. Oakland Co. MI $55,207.... 2003 pop. est. 1,207,869

... and I didn't even go thru the entire list of 50 counties....

The populations above were gotten from this source, which references US Census statistics:
http://www.epodunk.com/top10/countyPop/coPop33.html

Sorry, but from the most recent available data, your number is wrong. Oakland County is the third wealthiest county in the nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest..._United_States

Your number is from 2003. Mine is from 2005. Everyplace online shows this 2005 number.

If you can find something more recent, then post it. Otherwise, Oakland County is the third wealthiest county in the nation. I can find nothing more recent online.

And everyone here is ridiculously defensive of Detroit and completely missing the point.

Who gives a crap if Oakland is first, third or fifth richest? The fact is that it's damn rich, and weathering the economic storm remarkably well. It's Michigan's economic powerhouse, and fares best in good times and bad.

No it isn't perfect; no place is. These silly "gotcha" posts [["Gee, Troy has budget issues, therefore Oakland County = Detroit!") are completely nonsensical.

crawford · September-25-09, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitej72

By the way, if you love the O.C. so much, why don't you move there?

When did I say I "love" the O.C., or even like it?

All I said is that Oakland County is much more prosperous and desirable than the rest of the region. The numbers bear this out.

And, an obvious corrolary to this fact is that Detroit isn't the economic center of the region anymore.

It's just blind hope to imagine that any potential urban or creative rebirth would occur in what is now a economically marginal part of the region.

**PCE** · September-25-09, 01:39 AM

Crawford-I was just on the Palmer Fountain thread. People stepping up and making a contribution to the region. Go check it out. I'm telling you guy, this is really cool stuff.
If you like what's happening there, could you somehow manage to trickle just a little wealth down to them?

crawford · September-25-09, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by Locke09

Not that Wikipedia is the best source, but here are the current top 20

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest..._United_States

Various counties in New Jersey beat out Oakland County. Imagine that.

No, this is false. I don't even have to open the link.

There is no county over one million residents in NJ, so obviously there isn't a NJ county over one million residents with a higher income than Oakland County.

The most populous county in NJ is Bergen County, and is has about 900,000 residents.

BTW, you are seriously surprised that there are wealthy counties in NJ? For real?

NJ is 80% NYC suburbs, and has some of the wealthiest counties in the nation.

It's the second richest state in the nation, just barely behind Connecticut.

Originally Posted by Locke09

I don't have anything against Oakland County. Some of my best friends live in Oakland County. It's just that actual data is so very accessible these days, there's no point in making unsubstantiated statements.

Gee, you took the words right out of my mouth!