Unbelievable Obama Gaff

[ghettopalmetto]

I'll be happy with just plain Freedom.

Knowing that there are people who don't want the government to take care of them is a foreign concept to you, but you can adapt.

I don't want the government to take care of me, but I'd like to be able to see a fucking doctor if I get sick. I suppose in your Nineteenth Century Worldview, though, it's not "manly" if one has to seek medical attention.

Now get back to work and earn your nickel for the 16 hour day.

[MCP-001]

I don't want the government to take care of me, but I'd like to be able to see a fucking doctor if I get sick. I suppose in your Nineteenth Century Worldview, though, it's not "manly" if one has to seek medical attention.

Now get back to work and earn your nickel for the 16 hour day.

Machismo has nothing to do with it.

If I had to ballpark it, I'd say that about 80% of what the government is proposing is agreeable to all sides...and can be passed today if the politicians were so inclined.

Banning pre-existing conditions as a condition of purchasing insurance. Allowing purchasing of insurance over state lines. Allowing a'la carte purchasing of insurance plans. Banning lifetime caps on coverage. Tort Reform.

These are all things that have been acknowledged as agreeable.

Unfortunately, TPTB believe in the in for a penny, in for a pound approach.

They want total government control.

Not all at once, but piecemeal.

[ZRX Doug]

My god..you're so fulla crap that you creak going around corners, don't ya?
Nope, nothing's free in this life..I haven't carried any medical coverage since '00, when I voluntarily under-employed myself..the time to deal with family members in need was more important than the money, or the insurance that went with it.
In the time that I've been uninsured, I managed to rack up one fairly large healthcare bill..oddly enough, the local ER was happy to treat me despite learning that I was uninsured and basically broke at the time.
Once I was healed, the hospital was more than happy to work out a payment schedule we could both live with.
In exchange for getting to keep my kidneys, I had to sell one stupid-fast motorcycle, and give up a few of my high-end luxury toys [[no cable, switched to dial-up internet, bottom of the line cell) for a few years..seemed like a bargain to me.
If I were a parent, I'd scrimp to make insurance a priority before buying the toys..nothing cracks me up quite so much as seeing some overfed bitch waddle out of her late-model Escalade to tell some news guy how horrible it is that she can't afford insurance for her family..
Being a single guy with no dependents, I figure it's my right to spin the wheel and risk it all..

FWIW, my sister and the three friends I spoke with this morning all report that their premiums have DROPPED over the past two years..funny, ain't it?
Like I said, rose-colored glasses, dude..

And as we all know, emergency room care is the cheapest form of health care available. It's so cheap, doctors and nurses willingly provide it for FREE if you don't have health insurance!

Please don't come back in 5 years and tell us how your health insurance premiums have doubled, ZRX Doug. You'll have deserved it.

[ZRX Doug]

Who is stopping you from seeing a doctor? Like I said, no insurance here..costs me a whopping fifty bucks to hoof it on down to the nearest pay-per-play clinic and see a Doc if I get a bad case of the flu or something..and the majority of prescriptions are $4 bucks or so at Krogers. I've yet to see the day where scary men with guns said "Doug, you can't see a doctor..leave now or we'll shoot!" when I walk in to the clinic..
I'm "manly" enough to stitch up my own wounds [[ask to see the scars if we ever meet), but I don't see anything "unmanly" about seeking help when I can't do for myself..on the other hand, I don't expect someone to sweat through medical school so that they can give their training away for free, and I don't expect my next-door neighbor to pay MY bills with his tax dollars.

I don't want the government to take care of me, but I'd like to be able to see a fucking doctor if I get sick. I suppose in your Nineteenth Century Worldview, though, it's not "manly" if one has to seek medical attention.

Now get back to work and earn your nickel for the 16 hour day.

[ccbatson]

Precisely...willingness to pay over time is all that you need to engage the services needed or desired. Heck, for Doctors [[at least) that pays better than Medicare and Medicaid once you calculate all the red tape and risk/protective practices employed.

[elganned]

..nothing cracks me up quite so much as seeing some overfed bitch waddle out of her late-model Escalade to tell some news guy how horrible it is that she can't afford insurance for her family..

So far you have shown yourself a reasonable and worthy advocate for your position, addressing the question with cogent arguements.

Don't spoil it now by dragging in blatant stereotypes like the Welfare Queen--unless of course you personally know someone of this description.

[elganned]

Precisely...willingness to pay over time is all that you need to engage the services needed or desired.

So it's okay to go into long-term debt by spending money you don't have to take care of an emergent situation?

Pardon me, but isn't that exactly what you are villifying the Obama administration for doing? It is a difference only of scale, not of concept.

[ZRX Doug]

So it's okay to go into long-term debt by spending money you don't have to take care of an emergent situation?

Pardon me, but isn't that exactly what you are villifying the Obama administration for doing? It is a difference only of scale, not of concept.

I disagree..if the individual racks up a long-term debt thru illness, it is nobody but the individual's responsibility to pay it back.If the government racks up a long-term debt in hopes of protecting an individual in the above scenario, we ALL get to pay for it.The concept is "individual responsibility," FWIW.As for the "welfare queen" comment..yeah, I've known a couple dozen of 'em..they tend to cycle thru the rental homes on either side of my own house at the rate of one about every two years.
I was talking of the usual "man in the street" interview ya see on the news, though..I have a hard time sympathizing with the "poor folks who can't afford insurance" when they step out of a 35+K vehicle dressed to the nines and carrying more beef on their bones than your average NFL player..
'Splain to me the logic of living in a home identical to mine, paying three times my monthly mortgage payment in rent, owning/leasing the latest & greatest the folks at GM have to offer, "rent to own" on the largest TV that'll fit thru the door, but not having any cash for medical insurance?

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "it is nobody but the individual's responsibility to pay it back."

Yeah, everyone needs a half million dollar debt hanging on them, plus ongoing charges for treatment. Your example based on your personal experience put forth earlier in this thread was just luck on your part, and nothing else. Going without insurance and assuming whatever liability happens will be within the scope of your income and ability to pay, is just off the charts cuckoo. People need to have access to affordable care. Care that will not put them in bondage to a hospital or collection agencies for years to come. You got sick and found it affordable, but had to shed some of your assets? Well good for you, the reality is most people that don't have insurance, don't have anything either. Anyone that has anything of value, realizes it will be gone if they get sick and most always carry medical insurance to safeguard their property.

Someone is driving an Escalade and has no medical insurance? That means they have a note on a car that the bank owns and they have no medical insurance. They don't own shit.

These were the same types of arguments put up by the anti-auto insurance crowd when no-fault mandatory insurance came along. The "I pay my bills" crowd rationalized they would just pay in the event of an accident. Yeah, some guy making 8 bucks an hour at the time would cover the medical and long term care costs of someone they put in a wheel chair? Pay for a bridge their car burned and destroyed? It was just plain dumb.

You were just lucky, luck is no metric for basing any sort of decision on whether people should have medical coverage or not.

[Gistok]

Wow! I often don't agree with you Sstashmoo, but that was eloquently stated... and well put!!

[elganned]

ZRX Doug, I was referring to Cc's ongoing "Obama delenda est!" campaign, the one where he excoriates the current administration for the bail-outs passed last year. It might apply in your case, also, though you haven't stated a position on it that I remember seeing.

The economy and the banking industry was in an emergent situation, and we took on a long-term debt to deal with the problem. In my mind the situation is analogous to the patient who assumes long-term debt to deal with a medical emergency, something which you and Cc both apparently find acceptable. I was merely drawing a parallel to point up a seeming inconsistency in viewpoint.

As for the folks you reference, I admit I have a hard time finding sympathy for them myself. But those aren't the folks I worry about. The danger in resorting to stereotypes is that it allows one to dismiss an entire class of people based on a model constructed from a few atypical and extreme specimens.

[elganned]

Sstashmoo, I'm with Gistok. Good post

[ccbatson]

Elganned, you ascribe noble intentions to Obama and company erroneously. He/they are, using Emmanuel's phrase, taking advantage of the crisis to grab more power.

[ZRX Doug]

Quote: "it is nobody but the individual's responsibility to pay it back."

Correctamundo. You get an A+

Yeah, everyone needs a half million dollar debt hanging on them, plus ongoing charges for treatment. Your example based on your personal experience put forth earlier in this thread was just luck on your part, and nothing else. Going without insurance and assuming whatever liability happens will be within the scope of your income and ability to pay, is just off the charts cuckoo.
No, it is a calculated risk. You do not know the value of my personal assets, nor do you know that I don't fear the prospect of throwing them all away in exchange for my health if need be.
Read some Kipling, grasp what it means to be a man..

People need to have access to affordable care.
They do. As I said, $50 for a pay-per-play clinic visit, prescription drugs cheaper than dirt at all the big chains.

Care that will not put them in bondage to a hospital or collection agencies for years to come. Why not? Every single other personal catastrophe can/will "put you in bondage," what makes health care an exception? You got sick and found it affordable, but had to shed some of your assets? Well good for you, the reality is most people that don't have insurance, don't have anything either.
Bullshit. Everyone I know who claims they "have no insurance" because they cannot afford it does their complaining over an internet connection that didn't come free, on a computer that wasn't a gift from the government.
Anyone that has anything of value, realizes it will be gone if they get sick and most always carry medical insurance to safeguard their property.
Or, they can spin the wheel and gamble that they will remain healthy..millions choose to do just that.
Someone is driving an Escalade and has no medical insurance? That means they have a note on a car that the bank owns and they have no medical insurance. They don't own shit.
Not true..they "own" a $300+ per month car payment..if they applied that cash to an insurance policy and drove a beater, at least they'd be showing a certain amount of fiscal responsibility. You make the financial choices that determine the course of your life. It's a whole ant/grasshopper thing..either you get it or you don't. Obviously, [i]you[i/] don't.

These were the same types of arguments put up by the anti-auto insurance crowd when no-fault mandatory insurance came along. The "I pay my bills" crowd rationalized they would just pay in the event of an accident. Yeah, some guy making 8 bucks an hour at the time would cover the medical and long term care costs of someone they put in a wheel chair? Pay for a bridge their car burned and destroyed? It was just plain dumb.
Oddly enough, auto insurance is NOT mandatory..self-insuring is not only legal but frequently practiced by people/businesses that have the means to cover their liability. It's a freedom thing.

You were just lucky, luck is no metric for basing any sort of decision on whether people should have medical coverage or not.

Clearly, you failed to comprehend my post. I agree that I'm lucky..but I also wish to point out that my medical expenditures were far ABOVE the average for the period you're speaking of. Normal [[non-kidney failure normal) health care IS affordable..if you fear catastrophic medical issues, insurance meant only for such an occasion is considerably cheaper than full-boat "health maintenance" coverage.
From what I've seen, the majority who "can't afford" insurance probably could if they gave up some bling..
Given the choice, I'd just as soon go back to work full-time and pick up my insurance once again..the decision not to do so is/was mine, but made under duress.

[gibran]

Freedom is an indivisible word. If we want to enjoy it, and fight for it, we must be prepared to extend it to everyone, whether they are rich or poor, whether they agree with us or not, no matter what their race or the color of their skin.
Wendell Willkie


Glad you made it Doug... Now what about the 2900 fellow citizens that didn't because of a direct cause and effect of lack of health care..not to mention th emillions of those who have to make choices each day whether to eat or buy medication...or those that traded thei r"bl;ing" in long ago for a meal.

I was watching one of the enlighten state that people who are sick "should be the responsibility of their families, church or community!" I just missed getting her address from the news cast or even her church's. I wanted to send them my bill from the medical community that denied the removal of what my Doctor called a pre-cancerous growth...maybe next time I will let it grow baby grow...[[ possible new line for Sarah)

I guess those who set up payments plans have figured out a way to take advantage of the system..but most costs are well beyond a simple payment plan [[except for things like a doc in a box)//Cost per day for Rehabilitation in an acute Hospital $1200 ...LOS for a CVA or TBI..2 weeks [[obscene in itself at times)...up to 30 days..not including equipment, medications out patient therapy, specialist or surgical...guess they can add to the cost to us anyway; which is what the Hospital does [[since they are not geared up for payments type arragements w/their costs..they get passed on to us poor slobs who have insurance-that means increases 5% per year for family: $1100 per month: BCBS)... but that's ok to I got mine crowd..

Yes love all that freedom debt buys us.. Guess the people at those values voting conference forgot to value each other...or at least those who are the lowest amoungst us.. Isn't that what this is all about anyway..how much do we value each other as human beings or that something is that goes with flag pins? Something that sounds/looks good for a few but not for the meant for the many.

[vetalalumni]

Glad you made it Doug... Now what about the 2900 fellow citizens that didn't because of a direct cause and effect of lack of health care..not to mention th emillions of those who have to make choices each day whether to eat or buy medication...or those that traded thei r"bl;ing" in long ago for a meal.

You said it [[well).

[ccbatson]

Not a choice between basic care and eating in this country...not possible as it is illegal. You may carry a hefty debt, but only after getting the needed care.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Read some Kipling, grasp what it means to be a man.."

I know what it means to be a man, and recognize the ramblings of foolishness when I see them. I also understand "Wise and responsible". Or you could simply buy a calculator and figure out how bad of shape you'll be in if anything serious happens. Priced a bypass surgery lately? Hip replacement? How about having a stroke and wind up in a coma and be in the hospital for a month er so in intensive care, etc. If you can afford that, good for you. Half million dollar hospital bills are common.

What you're missing is you think you are personally responsible and will take care of "it" if anything happens. The reality is we taxpayers will take care of it, when you can't.

Ever had a court judgment against you? Some attorneys can be ruthless pricks. Think you'll simply work out a payment arrangement with them on 2 or 300 thousand? Guess again, they will take everything you have and everything you try to have until that debt is paid.

"Hoofing it down to the walk-in clinic" is great for minor stuff. Ask them if they do kidney transplants or treat cancer. As long as you have nothing more than a runny nose or a sprain, or stay "lucky" your plan will work. Otherwise you'll run up a huge bill, default, the doctors and hospitals will expense it out and offset their tax liability, tax receivables the fed makes up elsewhere, the rest of us, and it becomes the burden on us all.

Quote: "Oddly enough, auto insurance is NOT mandatory..self-insuring is not only legal but frequently practiced by people/businesses that have the means to cover their liability. It's a freedom thing."

No car insurance either? If you're in Michigan and most any other state and get stopped, they'll straighten you out on that. You do know if you have no car insurance and get into an accident no matter what the circumstance, you'll be at fault? The way the law looks at it, or did, with no insurance, you shouldn't have even been there.

Here you are:

Michigan law:

""an owner or operator of a motor vehicle who fails to produce evidence of insurance under this subsection when requested to produce that evidence or who fails to have motor vehicle insurance for the vehicle as required under chapter 31 of the insurance code of 1956, 1956 PA 218, MCL 500.3101 to 500.3179, is responsible for a civil infraction.""

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...me=mcl-257-328

[ZRX Doug]

Nope, I don't have the necessary scratch to self-insure..got the mandatory My-Fault insurance as required for us normal folks.

On the other hand, I do own my own home, business, vehicles, etc..and am perfectly willing to gamble their value on the state of my health in exchange for the freedom that my current state of under-employment gives me.

You seem to have a problem grasping the concept of "freedom of choice."

You also seem to be seriously confused about the high cost to taxpayers of paying for random deadbeats who can't pay their massive medical bills VS the much higher cost of paying for EVERYONE'S medical bills on a government-run healthcare plan.

Seriously, where does the money come from? And PLEASE, don't try to blow smoke up my ass and tell me it'll come out of all the money saved by "fixing" Medicaire..

[rb336]

Not a choice between basic care and eating in this country...not possible as it is illegal. You may carry a hefty debt, but only after getting the needed care.

your understanding has the depth of water on the moon

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "You seem to have a problem grasping the concept of "freedom of choice.""

Freedom is a feel-good concept and open to interpretation. The truth is, we really aren't that free. You can't be held as a slave, etc. Certain rights are supposed to be inalienable, but that doesn't mean you can do anything you want.

Quote: "I do own my own home, business, vehicles, etc.."

And you choose to spin the wheel and take your chance with no medical insurance? Heh, this is a first. Well, good luck with that. I'd bet if healthcare were affordable, you'd have it. Do I win?

Where does the money come from? Where every other government funded program gets it's money, the taxpayers. Or China, then the taxpayers. The fact is what we have now is an atrocity. We are the richest country on the planet and 1/6th of our population can't go see a doctor other than when they exactly have to. This is a recipe for disaster and a piss poor way to maintain one's health. Not getting regularly scheduled screenings, exams etc.

Batts, I'm a bit surprised that you'd consider people not having insurance, a satisfactory situation and environment for administering medicine. Patients care being handled at a crisis management level. How is it, from a conscientious perspective?

[ZRX Doug]

How did you arrive at that 1/6 figure, and how do are defining "our population" in this context?

[Sstashmoo]

It's probably more like 2/3rds. Considering existing medical coverage has become so poor about paying for anything. Even people with insurance are hesitant about seeing a doc.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "necessary scratch to self-insure.."

The law says if you operate a motor vehicle, you must have a certificate of insurance, to show that vehicle is insured with an insurance company. It doesn't say recent bank statement. I've seen this on here before about "self-insuring", not sure where that is coming from. The law doesn't say that it's ok to not have it, if you have enough money to pay for said damages. Wealth does not free one from laws.

[ZRX Doug]

It's probably more like 2/3rds. Considering existing medical coverage has become so poor about paying for anything. Even people with insurance are hesitant about seeing a doc.

Translation: "I pulled the 1/6 figure out of my ass, then quadrupled it when questioned."

I'll ask again.

How did you arrive at that 1/6 figure, and how are you defining "our population" in this context?