Why hasn't Detroit ever owned up to its urban planning blunders?

[iheartthed]

I was just reading about the expressway that was once proposed to be built across Lower Manhattan. If built, that project would have leveled many of what are today's most desirable neighborhoods in New York City. A former New York City Assemblyman said about the project:

Except for one old man, I’ve been unable to find anyone of technical competence who is for this so-called expressway. And this old man is a cantankerous, stubborn old man who has done many things which may have, in their time, been good for New York City. But I think it is time for this stubborn old man to realize that too many of his dreams turn out to be nightmares for the city. And this board must realize that if it does not kill this stupid example of bad city planning, that the stench of it will haunt them and this great city for many years to come

The "old man", Robert Moses, favored 1950s Detroit style car-oriented development over mass transit and pedestrian oriented development. Fortunately, the city of New York put the kibosh on the project before it ever became a reality.

But unfortunately, the city of Detroit did not put the kibosh on many of their misguided city planning efforts like the excessive freeways, Poletown, the Riverfront casino project, the list goes on. These renewal/reinvention projects have done MUCH more to make the city less viable than a riot that took place before more than half the current residents were born.

So why is it that the city of Detroit [[and the state for that matter) has never been forced to reconcile their planning blunders? Instead, the leaders grapple with these red herring arguments and continue implementing misguided policies. It's common in Detroit to talk about broken car windows, and muggings as for why the city isn't viable. But those are just symptoms of the real problem[[s) that makes Detroit such an inhospitable place; it became a city that isn't built for people anymore. IMO, of course.

[Gsgeorge]

You're 100% right.

You also answered some of your own questions, I think. Detroit is an auto-oriented city and will continue to be for some time to come. And Michigan has never been a leader when it comes to public transit or pedestrian-oriented development. None of our major cities have a viable inter-city rail network. And all of our major cities have sprawling suburbs, freeway megaprojects, and big-box developments on their peripheries.

That seems to be changing, incrementally, but unfortunately the rest of the country is way, way ahead of us in regards to this. Even Gary, Indiana is spearheading efforts to restore its abandoned train station and put in a light-rail system.

Until we elect a more competent leadership, and find people who are committed to investing in solid public transit and smart developments, we will continue to see neighborhoods decimated for enormous casinos, historic structures demolished to make way for parking, and more and more enhancements and to our massive freeway systems.

But it's also not that easy. Transit-oriented and pedestrian-oriented development takes a change in the way we, the people, want to and like to live. We have been so ingrained in the automobile culture because of its convenience and speed that we have forgotten about the convenience and speed of walking down the street to your local market, hopping on the streetcar to visit your friends in another neighborhood, or enjoying the sense of community and excitement that pervades denser neighborhoods.

Before Michigan and Detroit "own up" to their planning mistakes, we the people have to make it clear we want the opposite of what we've been getting. Unfortunately, this may very well be the hardest part.

[daddeeo]

Someone would have to admit they were wrong and that's not going to happen.
I wouldn't down play broken car windows and other crime by somehow excusing it because of poor urban planning. That's just giving scumbags another excuse for leniency if and when they get caught.

[iheartthed]

Someone would have to admit they were wrong and that's not going to happen.
I wouldn't down play broken car windows and other crime by somehow excusing it because of poor urban planning. That's just giving scumbags another excuse for leniency if and when they get caught.

Well, don't confuse my point with excusing the acts of criminals. My point was that the physical environment of Detroit makes the criminal activity more attractive. Car windows don't get broken when cars are parked on the street in Midtown Manhattan because you have dozens of people walking past going to subway stations, restaurants, bars, etc.

[digitalvision]

Some of those blunders were carved out when, let's just say, another group of people controlled the city government. The current government structure from Coleman Young on [[Bing's not been around long enough to know), as it's been told to me many times, does not feel they have much to apologize for. That, and administration attitude changes - Riverfront Casinos were Archer's baby. Did you expect Kilpatrick to apologize for Archer's mistake?

If anything, you're going to find anger for the black neighborhoods that were erased due to the freeways and "urban renewal" plans.

And if you're thinking suburban leaders would apologize... the freeways [[with pockets of urbanity) have worked out really well for L. Brooks Patterson and Oakland County, which now has more economic activity than some small states.

These policies, in general, are the policies that people want here. If you want New York or Chicago, move there. Detroit is Detroit, not Boston.

[Detroitnerd]

These policies, in general, are the policies that people want here. If you want New York or Chicago, move there. Detroit is Detroit, not Boston.

I don't understand this comment. Are you saying that anybody who wants decent urban planning should leave?

[iheartthed]

Some of those blunders were carved out when, let's just say, another group of people controlled the city government. The current government structure from Coleman Young on [[Bing's not been around long enough to know), as it's been told to me many times, does not feel they have much to apologize for. That, and administration attitude changes - Riverfront Casinos were Archer's baby. Did you expect Kilpatrick to apologize for Archer's mistake?

If anything, you're going to find anger for the black neighborhoods that were erased due to the freeways and "urban renewal" plans.

And if you're thinking suburban leaders would apologize... the freeways [[with pockets of urbanity) have worked out really well for L. Brooks Patterson and Oakland County, which now has more economic activity than some small states.

These policies, in general, are the policies that people want here. If you want New York or Chicago, move there. Detroit is Detroit, not Boston.

Well, I did move there. But the whole point of this forum is to bitch about why Detroit is dead. [[That's what the question asks every time I log in.) So apparently the people who live there don't have what they want.

I'm not saying that someone should come out and "apologize", but there seems to be no acknowledgement at any level that these ill-thought out policies have had a tremendous detrimental effect on the city. Kilpatrick did not need to be the decision maker at the time to acknowledge a previous bad decision by Archer. Coleman didn't need to be mayor to acknowledge a bad decision by Cavanaugh [[but Coleman was the mayor during Poletown). Only when the bad decision making is acknowledged can there then be an effort to correct the mistakes.

What I see in Detroit is that there is no challenge to the line of thought that created the current mess that is the city. And I'm not talking about racist/classist bickering between city and suburban leaders. I'm talking about engineering an environment that is inhospitable for the type of dense population that once existed in the city.

[Detroitnerd]

We'll fix the problem by enlarging it.

[rustic]

Detroit's urban planning blunders well predate the 1950's-1970's freeway construction projects. In addition, some of the results of these blunders are often praised by many and have become iconic over time [[MCS, RenCen). Here is one to consider that many might find suprising:

New Center. New Center was a disaster in terms of it's overall impact on the urban fabric of Detroit. Way worse IMO than, say, the impact Northland had on CBD shopping. New Center was isolated from its initial concept. any grandiose thoughts of linking the 3-4 miles [[!) between New Center and downtown with high-density skyscraper infill construction were absolute nonsense. Not only is New Center located miles away from the CBD but it also leapfrogged an active and valuable industrial manufacturing area and major industrial rail lines.

The bulidings are certainly individually beautiful, and as a cluster they are very impressive. New Center is a monument to a swaggering arrogant olden tymes Detroit, a Detroit so wealthy and arrogant that within the short span of a couple of decades could concieve of, build, and populate the equivalent of a downtown Cleveland or St. Louis miles from it's actual CBD! Too bad alla that development didn't happen just north of grand circus park along Woodward rather than waay out on West Grand Blvd. Imagine the fabulous ruins THAT woulda made ...

[rjlj]

When you hire people like your friends and family and put people in charge who have no experience in urban and land use planning, Detroit at its present state is your result. Without a clear vision and master plan by educated planners, we will continue to have a city that is not built for people.

[Detroitnerd]

The leadership hasn't owned up to the "mistakes" because it fully intends to keep doing same. Only when they decide not to do it anymore are they regretfully looked back upon as "mistakes."

That quote about Moses could be said for many of our local leaders.

[DetroitDad]

Great thread!

However, we are playing chess not checkers. The big mistakes you mention got us here, but it was the job of the press or in some serious cases, the FBI, to hold people accountable, which they have done recently. The past blunders [[riots, horrible super projects, and the like) are not what keep us down today, and neither are issues like violent crime, poor schools, and vacant lots, those are symptoms.

First, DV and others, I mean no offence, but you are way off base about suburban developments, the East side, and the like, but that is really neither here nor there. The state of Detroit has little to do with poor urbanism, that is yet another symptom. In theory, the outer areas of Detroit could and should have been able to function just fine on the suburban model in the more recent past.


The REAL problem in Detroit is....

I went for a walk on the West side near Lonyo today with someone who was virtually a lifelong Detroiter who remembered that street in better days. Later I talked to another individual in the same general area. Both of them shared some things that I think echoed the real problem in Detroit, the root of our woes, and rjlj pretty much said the same thing in this post;

When you hire people like your friends and family and put people in charge who have no experience in urban and land use planning, Detroit at its present state is your result. Without a clear vision and master plan by educated planners, we will continue to have a city that is not built for people.

The problem is corruption, and Kwame in particular really put the nail in the coffin that will take a long time to undo. Many city planners and city employees in Detroit got their jobs because of family or friends, not because they were qualified... or even the best qualified. This opinion is told to me time and again by people who have worked along side those handout employees. These "handout employees" are described as lazy individuals who hate their jobs, and do as little work as possible, often getting away with pushing the real work on the already overwhelmed legitimate and desirable employees.

A strong root problem in Detroit is corruption, and this problem is even bigger when compounded with the higher ups who desire comfort. Again, one of these people today pointed out to me that some higher ups actually want Detroit to stay the way it is. These individuals like being the big fish in the small pond. If Detroit improved and grew, said big fish would soon be [[politically) just another fish in a much larger pond. We as a city and state need to be leery about who we trust, as many saviors just seem to enjoy being viewed as God's messenger.

Beyond that, legitimate projects and revitalization efforts are often met with a impenetrable wall of corruption. Many have been drawn to the prospect of rebuilding Detroit, some very knowledgeable and very talented individuals, and almost all have failed. They face that wall of corruption, as well as resistance by those who wish to keep Detroit just the way it is, whether because they want to be the big fish, or because they enjoy being able to break the law, or other such reasons.

[luckycar]

I was in the Riverfront Casino area last week.What a waste.This should have kept a viable enertainment area.Everyday that Pontiac is under state control and broke,is another day that downtown Pontiac misses out on being Royal Oak or Birmingham.The braintrust that planned the loop around town should have been brought up on charges years ago.

[digitalvision]

IHD - I don't think the leaders in the past necessarily preferred the dense population or walkable, urban spaces - and I think now it's all about putting the budget/collapse/receivership fire out. And even then, I'm not convinced either Bing or his challenger Barrow are any different on this issue. Many if not most of the new development you see across the city is suburban in style - Jefferson avenue after you cross 375 is looking more and more suburban every day. Woodward north of Grand Blvd - almost anything that gets knocked down gets replaced with a huge setback. Some urbanists I've talked to don't believe downtown Detroit will be the walkable center of the region, or is currently [[gasp!) Looking at the data, I can see how one comes to that conclusion.

DN - the question comes down to a personal one. If you are willing to wait between 10-25 years to maybe have the city you want to live in, great. Or, you decide to move somewhere else and get whatever "X" you want - in your case good urban planning - and get it now, or within the next couple years it takes you personally to make that move. Some that "X" is safety, others it's schools, others it's employment, or a combination. Most start out saying they are willing to wait for their personal "X", but personal experience tells me most burn out after 4-6 years and leave, and I can't say I blame them. Some, it's the process of building, not the destination, that enthralls them, and of course, that's valid too.

Many city lovers in this area I meet however, they've never actually lived in a New York or San Francisco or Chicago, or even visited them. To be honest, unless you've functioned [[visitors only see so much, I really mean live in them for even a month or six) in those spaces, you don't actually know what you're talking about when it comes to urbanity, where Detroit, Royal Oak, Birmingham and the region are in regards to it, what it would take, what's needed. It's all a bit of a walkable romance in those cases.

Books help, but they can't teach you the feel, the perceived distances, the vibe that occurs - and they can't teach you if you actually like it. Seen that too. They live in in an area for a few months and realize what it's really like to be without a car or without that instant mobility - and they come on back. Again, that's okay. That's life. Better to have experienced it and know what you want than not.

[gnome]

I'm heading out to Woodlawn Cemetery to bitch-slap that P.O.S. Mayor Cobo. After I scrap some worms off my fingers, I'm going to kick Miriani's boney ass all over town.

Feel better now?

[Detroitnerd]

I'll gladly bring a shovel.

'Punish Cobo' Effort Gets Under Way

Armed with shovels and what one participant described as a "pair of shit-kickers," angry Detroit residents charged into Woodlawn Cemetery to dig up the body of long-dead Detroit Mayor Albert Cobo [[1950-1957) to give him a sound beating.

One combatant, identified only as "The Gnome," vowed to "pummel" the bodies of all Detroit mayors after Hazen Pingree [[1890-1897).

"They thought they'd be safe from us by dying and being buried six feet underground, but we're gonna dig 'em up and beat 'em up, too, because of all the bad decisions they've made."

One shovel-wielding man, identified only as Detroitnerd, a haggard and apparently drunk miscreant, said he would rather have started with Mayor Edward Jeffries [[1940-1948), but disinterring the corpse of Cobo was "a good start."

...

[Stosh]

I'll gladly bring a shovel.

'Punish Cobo' Effort Gets Under Way

Armed with shovels and what one participant described as a "pair of shit-kickers," angry Detroit residents charged into Woodlawn Cemetery to dig up the body of long-dead Detroit Mayor Albert Cobo [[1950-1957) to give him a sound beating.

One combatant, identified only as "The Gnome," vowed to "pummel" the bodies of all Detroit mayors after Hazen Pingree [[1890-1897).

"They thought they'd be safe from us by dying and being buried six feet underground, but we're gonna dig 'em up and beat 'em up, too, because of all the bad decisions they've made."

One shovel-wielding man, identified only as Detroitnerd, a haggard and apparently drunk miscreant, said he would rather have started with Mayor Edward Jeffries [[1940-1948), but disinterring the corpse of Cobo was "a good start."

...

Why stop there? The decisions to disembowel Black Bottom were made in the 30's, possibly before. War years and depression intervened to postpone the inevitable. I believe this was a state project as well, so possibly adding a few Goveernors and state Transportation directors to the list is doable.

Gives a new meaning to "shovel ready" doesn't it?

Also the New Center decision was made by who? This wasn't a city project. Fisher and GM were hand in hand in determining the site selection. Could it have been an economic decision to place the site there? After all, the city didn't own the land. And downtown land was probably more expensive than where they built.

[buildingsofdetroit]

Armed with shovels and what one participant described as a "pair of shit-kickers," angry Detroit residents charged into Woodlawn Cemetery to dig up the body of long-dead Detroit Mayor Albert Cobo [[1950-1957) to give him a sound beating.

I've thought about going over to Holy Sepulchre Cemetery in Southfield to piss on Louis Miriani's grave as payback for tearing down Old City Hall. ...

[HazenPingree]

I'll gladly bring a shovel.
...
One combatant, identified only as "The Gnome," vowed to "pummel" the bodies of all Detroit mayors after Hazen Pingree [[1890-1897).
...

I would give my vote for sparing Jerome Cavanaugh, he was pretty cool.

[Detroitnerd]

Well, Retroit. I tried. You either are not reading the posts, have no desire to learn anything that challenges your worldview, or just have a really feeble intelligence. If you don't want to have a serious debate, that's fine. I'll just go back to making fun of you.

[Retroit]

Yes, Detroitnerd, everyone has a different perspective on the facts. I do understand where you and others are coming from. I respect your desire to have a dense city full of high-rises and mass transit. I have merely been trying to expose you to how most people that I know out here in the "evil" suburbs think. Personally, I would like to see the city of Detroit become more like the suburbs of Detroit than like Manhattan: safe, clean neighborhoods with single family homes; expressways maintained in current configuration to provide ease of movement; WallMarts and shopping malls so Detroiters don't have to travel all the way out to the suburbs to shop; along with all the other benefits that we superbanites enjoy [[good schools, fairly well-run and accountable representation in city hall, etc.)

Thank you, crawford, for your input. I agree with you on just about everything. As far as the expressways in Manhattan, I somewhat see Ihearthed's initial post that Manhattan [[and to a great extent, Brooklyn) had been better preserved by building the expressways around the periphery [[along the water). This was allowable due to their geography and would not have been possible in Detroit. I-94 couldn't have been built along the waterfront, as that would have necessitated destruction of factories/warehouses along the river in Detroit and the mansions in Grosse Pointe. I suppose if Woodward were a river [[like the East River), I-75 and the Lodge could have bordered that instead of cutting through a landmass. Proves once again that you really can't compare New York and Detroit. But I'm sure it will be only a matter of days before a DetroitYESer tries it again. Oh well... gives us someone to argue with.

[Danny]

The old Jewish community at Black Bottom FAILED because the Jews wanted more space.

The old Jewish community at Hasting Street FAILED because the Jews wanted more and more space.

The Jewish community along Oakland St, Woodward from Grand Blvd, Midtown, New Center Area and up to Webb Streets FAILED because the Jews wanted more and more and more space.

The Jewish community at northwest Detroit FAILED because the Jews wanted more and more and more and more space. Therefore they moved to Oak Park, Southfield, Lathrup Village, Franklin, Beverly Hills, Bloomfield Hills, West Bloomfield TWP. Commerce TWP. Farmington, Farmington Hills and Novi.

Polonia FAILED because the Poles in Detroit lower east side wanted more space. Therefore they moved to Hamtramck, Warren, Hazel Park, Sterling Heights, Clinton TWP. Center Line, Shelby TWP, Utica and up to Macomb TWP. and Washington TWP.

Germantown in Downtown Detroit FAILED because the Germans wanted more space. So they followed the Poles and moved to Hamtramck, Warren, Hazel Park, Sterling Heights, Clinton TWP. Center Line, Shelby TWP, Utica and up to Macomb TWP and Washington TWP.

The Germans in Warrendale community FAILED because they wanted more space so they moved to Dearborn [[west), Dearborn Heights, Westland, Garden City and Redford TWP. Canton TWP, Plymouth, Plymouth TWP, Northville, Northville TWP and Livonia.

The Italians in the Polonia district in Detroit's lower east side FAILED because they wanted more space.

The Italians in the Calcalupa district in Detroit's upper east side FAILED because they wanted more and more space.

The Italians in the Little Italy district in Detroit's Northeast side FAILED because they wanted more and more and more space. Therefore they moved to Eastpointe [[ East Detroit) St. Clair Shores, Grosse Pointe Park, Grosse Pointe,Grosse Pointe Farms, Grosse Pointe Woods, Grosse Pointe Farms, Harper Woods, Roseville, Harrison TWP, Macomb TWP, Sterling Hieghts, Clinton TWP, Utica, Washington TWP.

The Hungarians in Delray district at Detroit 's Southwest side FAILED because the need more space. Therefore they moved to River Rouge, Ecorse, Lincoln Park, Wyandotte, Melvindale, Trenton, Grosse Ille, Woodhaven, Taylor, Allen Park, Southgate, Brownstown TWP, Riverview, Gibraltar, Flat Rock and Rockwood.

Ethnicity in Detroit created these urban blunders not just because of political corruption, the growing migration of blacks, Hispanics, Mexicans and Arabs, poor schools and city services, freeways segregation and xenophobia. It's because of people wanted more space after they got a car.

[DetroitPlanner]

If one would care to study this, the world is full of such blunders. Robert Moses while destroying much of N Manhatten, Queens and the Bronx also gave New York some beautiful parks and parkways. One person's mess is another person's dream come true. More later.

[jackie5275]

I think the 2 comments made respectively by rjlj & daddeo pretty much summarize the whole situation. Too many family & friends who don't know what they're doing, & not just from the Kilpatrick administration, and the fact that those who are wrong won't admit it or depending on how far back you want to go, are now dead. It's just typical Detroit to have someone get a great idea of "Let's put up XYZ building or development and tear down ABC to make room for it." I look at all the old pictures of Detroit that get posted on this site. I'm feel left out that I couldn't see all the great buildings such as the old post office, city hall, MCS in its glory days, etc. The non-parking lot things that replaced them are plain & bland. I think most of these projects have been done, not only because you have someone with no knowledge of urban planning, but more so because political buddies are getting their payback. This is why there is no real urban planning in this area.

[gnome]

D..nerd. Excellent post. This thread needs a little perspective, that's why I'm waiting for Kimba to grace us with his stripping down of the facts.