Jennifer Crumley was found guilty of four counts of manslaughter.

[canuck]

Just wondering what the sentence will be when handed down in April.

Then James, the father will be tried. Sad that it had to come to this, but I believe like a jury of her peers did, that she did not act to protect her son, nor his fellow students in this matter.

[jcole]

No more than 15 yrs apparently. I actually thought it would be shorter because it's involuntary

Just wondering what the sentence will be when handed down in April.

Then James, the father will be tried. Sad that it had to come to this, but I believe like a jury of her peers did, that she did not act to protect her son, nor his fellow students in this matter.

[401don]

It may set a precedent but unfortunately it won't be a deterrent.

[Danny]

15 years prison for being a irresponsible parent who brought a kid a gun to play with.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

15 years prison for being a irresponsible parent who brought a kid a gun to play with.

They bought a gun for a DEEPLY DISTURBED kid.

[canuck]

No more than 15 yrs apparently. I actually thought it would be shorter because it's involuntary

Yes, I’m not positive but it seems like a possibility that she receives consecutive sentences. I think it’s unlikely but possible. The judge may decide that 15 years concurrent sentences is enough. It certainly is a milestone case; a First of its kind apparently.

[canuck]

It may set a precedent but unfortunately it won't be a deterrent.

It may prompt parents to behave more responsibly, generally. I think a lot folks are so intent on pushing their gun ownership rights that nothing fazes them, though, and this outcome might push a lot of them to radicalize in the opposite way.

[Richard]

I am not saying anything - because y’all know exactly where this thread is going.

[Jimaz]

Discussing guilty verdict for Jennifer Crumbley in manslaughter trial

Christy McDonald, Cassidy Johncox, and Derick Hutchinson discuss the guilty verdict for Jennifer Crumbley in her involuntary manslaughter trial.

[jcole]

Some people are saying the so called dad will probably get off. I tend to agree because society expects the mother to be the one who notices the issues with their child and is expected to do all the do diligence.

[Zacha341]

^ Yes, but fathers should have 'some' intentional leadership in the home especially regarding teen boys as they age into their teen years. This especially so regarding role modeling into adulthood.

We see the lack of active fathers in the black community and the results. Yet few want to talk about for fear of being called a racist.

Yet ask most teachers and counselors in the K12 levels -- they will detail the outcomes without question!

[canuck]

^ Yes, but fathers should have 'some' intentional leadership in the home especially regarding teen boys as they age into their teen years. This especially so regarding role modeling into adulthood.

We see the lack of active fathers in the black community and the results. Yet few want to talk about for fear of being called a racist.

Yet ask most teachers and counselors in the K12 levels -- they will detail the outcomes without question!

Yep, fathers should probably do more past the training wheels phase.

James Crumbley might have been less of a target of police and prosecutors if he had put a less enabling code than 0-0-0-0 on the gun case.

The wire lock in the ziploc didn’t do much to save his, the missus and the boy’s asses either.

[jcole]

That wasn't meant to be an argument; I said "some people". I don't happen to agree with the premise that women have the lone responibilty for their children.

^ Yes, but fathers should have 'some' intentional leadership in the home especially regarding teen boys as they age into their teen years. This especially so regarding role modeling into adulthood.

We see the lack of active fathers in the black community and the results. Yet few want to talk about for fear of being called a racist.

Yet ask most teachers and counselors in the K12 levels -- they will detail the outcomes without question!

[Jimaz]

This story is being carried on the BBC so they're hearing about it overseas. It would be interesting to hear what their audience in the UK thinks about it.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

This story is being carried on the BBC so they're hearing about it overseas. It would be interesting to hear what their audience in the UK thinks about it.

It’s probably safe to assume that they’re scratching their heads and saying that they don’t understand the American gun fetish and our being so comfortable with mass shootings.

[Jimaz]

It’s probably safe to assume that they’re scratching their heads and saying that they don’t understand the American gun fetish and our being so comfortable with mass shootings.

Yes. That seems to fit the accurate stereotype they have of us.

But I was wondering whether they might think {incorrectly} that this particular case is representative of the norm here.

True, we yanks are weird about guns but this case was an outlier even for us. Brits might not see that nuance. But I might be wrong.

[Lowell]

At a minimum this conviction should prompt gun-owning parents to secure their guns.

Section 9 of the gun safety law passed by the Michigan Legislature and signed by the governor comes into effect this year is rather explicit on this.

Sec. 9.
[1] An individual who stores or leaves a firearm unattended on premises under the individual’s control, and who knows or reasonably should know that a minor is, or is likely to be, present on the premises, shall do 1 or more of the following:

[a] Store the firearm in a locked box or container.
[b] Keep the firearm unloaded and lock the firearm with a locking device that is properly engaged to render the firearm inoperable by any individual other than the owner or an authorized user.

[2] An individual who enters onto the premises of another individual, stores or leaves a firearm unattended on those premises, and who knows or reasonably should know that a minor is, or is likely to be, present on the premises, shall do 1 or more of the following:

[a] Store the firearm in a locked box or container.
[b] Keep the firearm unloaded and lock the firearm with a locking device that is properly engaged to render the firearm inoperable by any individual other than the owner or an authorized user.
[c] Before entering onto the premises, do both of the following:

[i] In the individual’s motor vehicle, store the firearm in a locked box or container in that vehicle, or keep the firearm unloaded and lock the firearm with a locking device that is properly engaged to render the firearm inoperable by any individual other than the owner or an authorized user.
[ii] Lock the individual’s motor vehicle.

[3] An individual is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 93 days or a fine of not more than $500.00, or both, if the individual violates subsection [1] or [2] by failing to store or leave a firearm in the required manner and as a result of the violation both of the following occur:

[a] A minor obtains the firearm.
[b] The minor does either of the following:

[i] Possesses or exhibits the firearm in a public place.
[ii] Possesses or exhibits the firearm in the presence of another person in a careless, reckless, or threatening manner.

[4] If an individual violates subsection [1] or [2] by failing to store or leave a firearm in the required manner and, as a result of the violation, a minor obtains the firearm, discharges it and inflicts injury upon the minor or any other individual, the individual is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years or a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both.

[5] If an individual violates subsection [1] or [2] by failing to store or leave a firearm in the required manner and, as a result of the violation, a minor obtains the firearm, discharges it and inflicts serious impairment of a body function upon the minor or any other individual, the individual is guilty of a felony punishable by not more than 10 years or a fine of not more than $7,500.00, or both.

[6] If an individual violates subsection [1] or [2] by failing to store or leave a firearm in the required manner and, as a result of the violation, a minor obtains the firearm, discharges it and inflicts death upon the minor or any other individual, the individual is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 15 years or a fine of not more than $10,000.00, or both.

[7] This section does not apply under any of the following circumstances:

[a] A minor who does all of the following:

[i] Obtains a firearm with the permission of the minor’s parent or guardian.
[ii] Uses or possesses the firearm while the minor is under the supervision of the minor’s parent, guardian, or any individual who is 18 years of age or older and who is authorized by the person’s parent or guardian.
[iii] Uses or possesses the firearm during any of the following:

[A] The minor’s employment.
[B] Ranching or farming.

[C] Target practice or instruction in the safe use of a firearm.

[b] A minor who obtains a firearm with the permission of the minor’s parent or guardian and who uses or possesses the firearm for the purposes of hunting if the minor is in compliance with all applicable hunting laws.
[c] A minor who obtains a firearm through the minor’s unlawful entry of any premises or the motor vehicle where the firearm has been stored.
[d] A minor who obtains a firearm while lawfully acting in self-defense or defense of another.

[8] The department of health and human services shall do both of the following:

[a] In consultation with the department of attorney general, inform the public of the penalties for failing tostore or leave a firearm in the manner required under this section.
[ b] Publish lethal means counseling literature and provide that literature to federally licensed firearms dealers for use under section 15.

[9] A criminal penalty provided for under this section may be imposed in addition to any penalty that may be imposed for any other criminal offense arising from the same conduct.

[10] As used in this section:

[a] “Locked box or container” means a secure container, specifically designed for the storage of firearms, that is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device to which a minor does not possess the key or combination, or otherwise have access.
[b] “Locking device” means a trigger lock, cable lock, or similar lock that prevents a firearm from discharging.
[c] “Minor” means an individual less than 18 years of age.
[d] “Serious impairment of a body function” means that term as defined in section 58c of the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.58c.

[401don]

It’s probably safe to assume that they’re scratching their heads and saying that they don’t understand the American gun fetish and our being so comfortable with mass shootings.

You don't have to look across the big pond for that point of view just look across the river.

[missn]

I am not saying anything - because y’all know exactly where this thread is going.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Zacha341]

I did not offer my comment as an argument. I'm not. My comment was posted as an addition to the subject.

That wasn't meant to be an argument; I said "some people". I don't happen to agree with the premise that women have the lone responibilty for their children.

[Zacha341]

Yes. These factors do seem to emerge.

Yep, fathers should probably do more past the training wheels phase.

James Crumbley might have been less of a target of police and prosecutors if he had put a less enabling code than 0-0-0-0 on the gun case.

The wire lock in the ziploc didn’t do much to save his, the missus and the boy’s asses either.

[Richard]

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

That’s okay,I understand sometimes people just want to hear what they want to hear and nothing else matters,just remember things have a habit of boomeranging back and there comes a point where nobody is immune.

[Jimaz]

...But I was wondering whether they might think {incorrectly} that this particular case is representative of the norm here....

Oops. Maybe not quite so incorrectly. I had forgotten about this incident:

Nine-year-old girl accidentally kills gun instructor

I don't think it's too oppressive to simply keep firearms separate from children. Maybe except on a farm for vermin control? Eh, even that seems unnecessary.

[Richard]

In this case he was not a “kid” and as much as people say he was a wako,it was determined that he was not because he was not able to be tried claiming insanity and they tested and figured he had the mental capability to think like an adult and was charged as such.

Keeping guns secure from children,yes there is a responsibility but in a culture that contains guns there is also an educational responsibility.

Most small children killed by guns in the home is because of curiosity,everybody pushes to make them taboo so it becomes no different then finding that first stashed playboy.

They teach kids how to have safe sex or how to determine your sex in the 3rd grade,they can spend an hour covering guns in order to remove the curiosity aspect.

But nobody is going to implement that because it will remove their ability to appose and create flashpoints over something they actually know little about.

In the absence of established law,we are talking about moral responsibility,you cannot build enough prisons if you want to round up all the ones in this country that are morally irresponsible.

Even after that it becomes subjetive as to what is morally responsible or not.

Some believe it is morally responsible to let criminals walk out the door immediately after being arrested,which causes fear in the general public which increases gun sales,which increases the amount of people causally buying guns,which increases incidents because they are not receiving proper training or educating their children in the house so they are well aware of what it is.

You cannot even hide Christmas presents from kids,let alone a weapon .

UK was mentioned and how they feel,they have had bombings,acid attacks,stabbing,vehicles plowing multiple people down.

They do question our gun culture,everytime they are attacked while having no way to defend themselves.

[canuck]

Re: Ethan a minor / In the eyes of the law, and dare I say, members of the public and jury, he was too. A minor tried as an adult is becoming more frequent in US courts, unfortunately.

That is what the prosecution was about. Their early findings corroborated by later aspects gave them enough to bring the parents to justice. Their little escapade and their lies to the police concerning the securing of the gun, and confiscation of his cellphone, and the undetermined "lockout » of Ethan on the eve of the event exposed flagrant negligence.

I remember seeing an open bottle of whiskey at Ethan’s bedside in the police pictures of the house that fateful morning. A lot of data informed this decision by the jury as a slam dunk.

Of course, the data includes the purchase of a gun as a gift to Ethan, a troubled youth, who, had he used a kitchen knife, might probably have been tackled easily given his slight build.
The gun, a weapon, made the difference palpable.