Gilbert makes pitch for expanded mass transit in metro Detroit

[royce]

Baby Boomers 1946-1964. I am one so I know; Gen X 1965-1980; Millennials/Gen Y 1981-1996; Gen Z 1997-2012. Various sources.

[Gistok]

I don't care which generation type it is... cold winters in Michigan make owning a car more desirable. Warm weather months, yeah... other transport can work... but winters here really suck for the non-auto owners... and I bike 3 days a week.

Since 3.4 million of the 4 million in metro Detroit live outside of the city... not owning a car is really not a good option.

[stasu1213]

I don't care which generation type it is... cold winters in Michigan make owning a car more desirable. Warm weather months, yeah... other transport can work... but winters here really suck for the non-auto owners... and I bike 3 days a week.

Since 3.4 million of the 4 million in metro Detroit live outside of the city... not owning a car is really not a good option.

I'm a car owner but uses public transportation to go downtown to save on gas and parking.

[takascar]

Baby Boomers 1946-1964. I am one so I know; Gen X 1965-1980; Millennials/Gen Y 1981-1996; Gen Z 1997-2012. Various sources.

According to "The Fourth Turning", which invented these generational terms [[except maybe Baby Boomer), the generation begins to arrive 3 years before the turning, so:

Baby Boomer: Sep 1942 [[3 years before the end of WWII and the end of the 4th turning / beginning of the 1st Turning) to November 1960 [[3 years before Kennedy [[Nov 1963) and the end of / beginning of the 1st / 2nd Turnings).

Gen X: November 1960 [[-3 years before 2nd Turning) to February 1981 [[-3 years before Reagan's "Morning in America" speech / theme - end of 2nd Turning / beginning of 3rd Turning).

Millennials: Feb 1981 - Sep 15, 2005 [[the beginning of the GFC and the end of the 3rd / beginning of the 4th Turning).

Homelanders [[the SH name - or Gen Z if you prefer): Sep 15, 2005 - current.

Since S&H invented these terms, their definitions are authoritative.

[ABetterDetroit]

With nothing but the upmost respect for Mr. Gilbert how in the heck does one secure federal funding for the projects on the scale he is talking about when the RTA budget is this?

https://rtamichigan.org/wp-content/u...sinessPlan.pdf

[royce]

According to "The Fourth Turning", which invented these generational terms [[except maybe Baby Boomer), the generation begins to arrive 3 years before the turning, so:

Baby Boomer: Sep 1942 [[3 years before the end of WWII and the end of the 4th turning / beginning of the 1st Turning) to November 1960 [[3 years before Kennedy [[Nov 1963) and the end of / beginning of the 1st / 2nd Turnings).

Gen X: November 1960 [[-3 years before 2nd Turning) to February 1981 [[-3 years before Reagan's "Morning in America" speech / theme - end of 2nd Turning / beginning of 3rd Turning).

Millennials: Feb 1981 - Sep 15, 2005 [[the beginning of the GFC and the end of the 3rd / beginning of the 4th Turning).

Homelanders [[the SH name - or Gen Z if you prefer): Sep 15, 2005 - current.

Since S&H invented these terms, their definitions are authoritative.

takascar, until you put this info on this thread, I have never seen Baby Boomers age range end in 1960. I have never considered myself a Gen Xer. Again, all of the info for Baby Boomers age range that I have seen is 1946-1964. Since you said that the group that "invented" these age groupings may not have created an age group for Baby Boomers, I'm gonna stick with the age range that I have seen repeatedly over these many years.

BTW, who is S&H?

[Zacha341]

Yes. This is especially so of Detroiter's! Unapologetically so.

Further, not everyone can walk for blocks to a given buss or train stop.

Uuhhhh - of which planet or dimension do you speak, because its not this one.

I would say Millies and Homelanders, sure, but I am an X-er and we are the most car-centric generation still alive today.

[Jimaz]

...BTW, who is S&H?

Strauss & Howe.

I really don't see a point in arguing semantics. Just use numbers instead?

[mwilbert]

According to "The Fourth Turning", which invented these generational terms [[except maybe Baby Boomer), the generation begins to arrive 3 years before the turning, so:

Baby Boomer: Sep 1942 [[3 years before the end of WWII and the end of the 4th turning / beginning of the 1st Turning) to November 1960 [[3 years before Kennedy [[Nov 1963) and the end of / beginning of the 1st / 2nd Turnings).

Gen X: November 1960 [[-3 years before 2nd Turning) to February 1981 [[-3 years before Reagan's "Morning in America" speech / theme - end of 2nd Turning / beginning of 3rd Turning).

Millennials: Feb 1981 - Sep 15, 2005 [[the beginning of the GFC and the end of the 3rd / beginning of the 4th Turning).

Homelanders [[the SH name - or Gen Z if you prefer): Sep 15, 2005 - current.

Since S&H invented these terms, their definitions are authoritative.

I don't think these boundaries are particularly important, but the standard ones I've seen are:

Silent - 1928-1945
Boomer - 1946-1964
X - 1965-1980
Millennial - 1981-1996
Z - 1997-2012
Alpha? - 2012-

[takascar]

takascar, until you put this info on this thread, I have never seen Baby Boomers age range end in 1960. I have never considered myself a Gen Xer. Again, all of the info for Baby Boomers age range that I have seen is 1946-1964. Since you said that the group that "invented" these age groupings may not have created an age group for Baby Boomers, I'm gonna stick with the age range that I have seen repeatedly over these many years.

BTW, who is S&H?

I was born in 1962 and am an X'er. People born at the very beginning of a generation right up until the defining turning are called cuspers. I would be a Boomer/X cusper.

Strauss/Howe - William Strauss and Neil Howe: https://www.amazon.com/Fourth-Turnin...6613ff3e89c8b5

That's Neil's latest update - Bill Strauss died in 2010. Their original magnum opus was:

https://www.amazon.com/Fourth-Turnin...67900464&psc=1

[takascar]

I don't think these boundaries are particularly important, but the standard ones I've seen are:

Silent - 1928-1945
Boomer - 1946-1964
X - 1965-1980
Millennial - 1981-1996
Z - 1997-2012
Alpha? - 2012-

Nope - generations are 1/4th of the length of a human lifetime - which nominally is pegged at 84 years, so 21 years each, but it depends on the turning's length.

In "The Fourth Turning is Here" [[Neil's latest), he even argues that because lifespans are increasing, that turnings and thus generations are actually LENGTHENING. He suspects that the 4th turning won't be complete till 2032-2033, which would make it 27 or 29 years instead of the normative 21 years. Your time ranges of 15 years only is way too short.

[401don]

This choo choo thread has badly derailed.

[stasu1213]

I was born in 1962 and am an X'er. People born at the very beginning of a generation right up until the defining turning are called cuspers. I would be a Boomer/X cusper.

Strauss/Howe - William Strauss and Neil Howe: https://www.amazon.com/Fourth-Turnin...6613ff3e89c8b5

That's Neil's latest update - Bill Strauss died in 2010. Their original magnum opus was:

https://www.amazon.com/Fourth-Turnin...67900464&psc=1

You are a baby boomer

[401don]

You are a baby boomer

Who gives a sh.t?

[Jimaz]

A feeble attempt to rerail the thread:

A subway system in Detroit? Here are 6 times the city tried — and failed

Yet at several points in history, Detroit came somewhat close to getting a real subway system. What thwarted each plan in the end was a lack of money, lack of political will or sometimes both.

Knowing how Detroit went on to experience steep drops in population, one might consider the failure of each push as not necessarily a bad thing in hindsight. Detroit has had plenty of financial problems — but keeping an empty subway running isn't one....

Ford pledges $600M check....

Not that Ford.

Interesting, if frustrating, history.

[Atticus]

Mass Transit is just like good roads. Most people actually do want it, but no one wants to pay for it.

And it’s too heavy a political lift to raise taxes to fund it. The best we can seemingly hope for is enough funds for mediocre roads… and maybe a BRT system. Subway, or an actual rail system? You’re better off asking Santa for it than the Michigan legislature.

[stasu1213]

Mass Transit is just like good roads. Most people actually do want it, but no one wants to pay for it.

And it’s too heavy a political lift to raise taxes to fund it. The best we can seemingly hope for is enough funds for mediocre roads… and maybe a BRT system. Subway, or an actual rail system? You’re better off asking Santa for it than the Michigan legislature.

Michigan doesn't need a subway system. It just need good reliable mass transportation. The feds had given Michigan millions of dollars over the past 50 years to improve on its transit system and what was the outcome? A train that just circle around the downtown area. What a waste of federal money. Contracts are given to paving companies whom just do botched jobs repaving the highways and streets resulting in more millions being poured into road improvements just a few years later. The feds should look into this corruption. I75 had been repaved, then due to error ripped up and repaved again since the Qline started operation in 2017.

[royce]

Can anyone compare a year's worth of operating expenses for a subway line compared to a bus line? I have argued that a subway line is cheaper to operate, after construction, than a bus line. Given the expenses of replacing tires, oil, and other parts of a bus and the cost of labor: bus drivers, mechanics, etc..., it just seems cheaper to operate a subway system as opposed to a bus system. Anyone want to do the research?

[ABetterDetroit]

Can anyone compare a year's worth of operating expenses for a subway line compared to a bus line? I have argued that a subway line is cheaper to operate, after construction, than a bus line. Given the expenses of replacing tires, oil, and other parts of a bus and the cost of labor: bus drivers, mechanics, etc..., it just seems cheaper to operate a subway system as opposed to a bus system. Anyone want to do the research?

How would whatever the answer is to this question be financially relevant as an argument disregarding capital cost?. Subway lines cost Billions to build. Literally multiples of several thousands of the capital to add a bus line. It would be like arguing about the per hour cost on a flight to Mars vs. a flight to New York. What would be the logic?

[renf]

The newly opened Reseau Express Metropolitain rail system in Montreal
is getting very favorable reviews from people on rail news groups. It
extends for 67k and has 26 stations. Apparently the cost of consruction
was quite modest. And, similar to Detroit's People Mover, I believe that
the trains have no operator so labor costs are minimized,

Has anyone ridden on that new rail system in Montreal? Is it
a model for what might be accomplished in Detroit?

[401don]

The newly opened Reseau Express Metropolitain rail system in Montreal
is getting very favorable reviews from people on rail news groups. It
extends for 67k and has 26 stations. Apparently the cost of consruction
was quite modest. And, similar to Detroit's People Mover, I believe that
the trains have no operator so labor costs are minimized,

Has anyone ridden on that new rail system in Montreal? Is it
a model for what might be accomplished in Detroit?

Don't know but it sounds impressive:
https://www.railway-technology.com/p...system-canada/

Sounds like they built new track but did use mostly existing rail lines as well as alongside roads.

[stasu1213]

Who gives a sh.t?

Takascar does.

[stasu1213]

Can anyone compare a year's worth of operating expenses for a subway line compared to a bus line? I have argued that a subway line is cheaper to operate, after construction, than a bus line. Given the expenses of replacing tires, oil, and other parts of a bus and the cost of labor: bus drivers, mechanics, etc..., it just seems cheaper to operate a subway system as opposed to a bus system. Anyone want to do the research?

The upkeep of a subway system can be quite pricey being that it's really an underground tunnel with rail lines. The cost of heating the tunnels in the Winter and cooling them in the summertime. They are a haven for rats and one good flood the subways ate almost submerged so extra cost goes into operating pumping stations. It would be more cost efficient for light rail or rapid bussed such as the FAST Busses that travels Woodward, Michigan, and Gratiot.

[Jason]

The Montreal REM is relevant to Detroit mostly for two reasons.


The first is that an excellent metro system can be built at a low cost in a mostly suburban North American context by:

1. Avoiding expensive tunneling as much as possible by building it on elevated viaducts or earth embankments.
2. Not making stations any bigger or more complex than they need to be.
3. Building it very quickly.


The second is that it demonstrates the cost dynamic between buses and automated metros.

The Montreal REM is being built, paid for, owned, and operated by a company set up by a private investment group [[this is the short version of the story). The local government is paying the REM $0.72 per passenger kilometer, which is based on the operating costs/performance of existing transit in Montreal. But the REM is only expected to cost $0.19-0.24 per passenger kilometer to operate. The difference is enough to cover the capital costs while still making the investment group money.

Basically, automated metros trade out operating costs for capital costs. This is important to us because our federal government is actually pretty generous when it comes to capital grants.

[canuck]

I have not been on the REM yet, but I pick up my wife at the Terminus in Brossard or Panama station on the South Shore once a week. It happens we are on the First section to be opened, and that all of it was non existent whereas the same line from Central station downtown to Deux Montagnes is retrofitted to existing railway. The West Island line and airport line are elevated lines and a subway line and not completed yet, either. Our section which serves the South Shore and is mainly elevated above the central part of highway 10 which is also the main access route for traffic coming from New York and New England states.

The cost of 67 kms and 24 stations for the whole project is fairly inexpensive as was noted by Jason. There is a 5 station plus garage extension for the Blue line of our Metro system being built in the East End of Montreal that is much more expensive. The cost is the same for 5.7kms or 3,54 miles of track.

The Montreal metro is entirely subterranean as its rolling stock is on rubber tires. Everything related to maintenance and operations is self contained and expensive to run, but is very efficient.

The REM has had some glitches in spite of test runs that lasted more than a year. Since entering service there have been a number of delays due to different circumstances. The automated trainsets [[made in India) means that decisions are made at a distance and some of the stoppages are related to safety protocols. I am looking forward to trying it myself but I hate to leave my dog alone for more than a few hours a day, now. Lol