Could passenger rail service return to Michigan Central in Corktown?

[Airforceguy]

A host of officials in the public and private sectors are considering whether passenger trains can return to the former depot on Michigan Avenue in the Corktown neighborhood, including rail service to Canada. A conceptual document by Amtrak shared last week during a press conference in Windsor suggests service could start as early as 2027, though many details remain to be finalized, including a border security facility.

The last train left the station in January 1988, and the massive Corktown building was closed and decaying for decades before Ford Motor Co. bought it in 2018 and is in the midst of transforming it into a hub for the "future of global mobility." Where a future train stop would be located is to be determined. If not in the renovated train station itself, a future train stop might operate near the Innovation Center or somewhere in or near the 30 acres of Corktown that Ford calls its campus, according to a proposed vision document by Amtrak obtained by The Detroit News and confirmed by VIA Rail Canada, Michigan Department of Transportation and Mayor Mike Duggan's office.Still, officials insisted the idea is at such an early stage that it is almost too soon to discuss publicly.
“We are excited about the possibility of bringing passenger rail back to the Michigan Central district," Michigan Central spokeswoman Catherine Kelly said in a statement to The News. "We believe that the expansion of passenger rail would be an important step for transit and mobility. Though it is early on, we look forward to continuing to work with stakeholders."
Officials from Amtrak, the state of Michigan Department of Transportation and VIA Rail Canada also emphasized how nascent the idea remains.
"Use of the word 'plan' is an overstatement," said Marc Magliari, an Amtrak spokesman. "There are ideas under discussion about a proposed service by Amtrak into Windsor to connect with VIA Rail Canada," he said, which includes the idea of using Michigan Central. Windsor Mayor Drew Dilkens last week touted Michigan Central as a stop in a proposed train route from Chicago to Toronto. Windsor officials also provided a map of a future train station stop at Michigan Central.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...n/71583695007/

[stasu1213]

Would the Amtrak train be allowed to travel to Canada through the train tunnel?

[Richard]

Officials from Amtrak, the state of Michigan Department of Transportation and VIA Rail Canada also emphasized how nascent the idea remains.

I had to look up nascent,the definition is ,just coming into existence and beginning to display signs of future potential ,first passenger rail service started in 1830,I can see the need to be nascent as it is a new concept in 2023 it will probably take decades to figure out how to do it.

If they have not figured it out in 193 years,odds are they will not now.

Maybe they could start small but high tech with a horse drawn rail car.

The concept is not really that complicated,boards on the ground with steel rails on top that a box with wheels rolls on,throw some bleachers on top to provide seating and bingo you can move passengers via rail,if you want to get real highfalutin you can attach one of those new fangled steam powered locomotives on the front and ditch the horses.

They figured out how to sucker people into a 6 billion dollar free bridge but they cannot figure out how to move people from point A to point B in the most efficient manner while saving the planet in the process. It’s enough to rile up even a little Swedish girl.

Having said that,I thought they already established that they were building a “high speed “ rail and Amtrak hub at the old fairgrounds?

In the meantime in backwoods Florida you can take the newly established Brightline from Miami to Orlando with speeds up to 130mph at a distance of over 200 miles and not only that and wait for it … you can also ride Amtrak and do the same thing so not only one option but two.

Bunch of alligator etin rednecks figured out how to git er done.

Its not that they cannot figure it out,it’s they just do not want to and it is your position to hush up and sit down,they will do something when they are good and ready because they do not answer to you.

Even though they are your elective representatives and you are the boss,just hush up and pay your taxes without representation because they know what’s best for you.

So instead of just saying no it is not going to happen,they are appeasing by using fancy words like nascent.

[Gistok]

Richard, you went off on a tangent without understanding that the problem with train service in general in Michigan. Most routes share higher speed passenger service with slow moving cargo service... which is one of the big issues for Detroit-to-Chicago rail [historically known as the Wolverine Line].

Service via the MCS and the rail tunnel to Canada is part of a future bigger picture of Chicago-Detroit-Windsor-Toronto-Montreal. And we in the USA have to deal with cargo train companies that don't like to share tracks with faster passenger service. We have a long and expensive way to go before we get anything similar to the Washington to Boston east coast corridor.

I'm not an expert in this area, but it's not just about trains going from Detroit to Windsor. Those underground tunnel freight tracks were never used by passengers. They don't go to the Windsor Passenger Station, which is the terminus station from Toronto. On the US side, the freight tracks to Windsor happen to be right near MCS.

In the future a traveler from Chicago [or Detroit] to Toronto will not want to switch trains in Windsor. In fact historically any Detroiter who travels to Toronto by train has had to go to Windsor to catch the train.

[canuck]

All good points, Gistok.

Your mentioning the fact of slowdowns occurring on freight tracks is a fact of life for Viarail in Canada, too. The plan now is to build a dedicated track for a High frequency train on the Quebec City-Windsor corridor. The speeds would be higher, but not by much, if that were the case. But Alstom is trying hard to convince the Federal government and lobby Ontario and Quebec for true High Speed rail, behind the scenes. It would obviously impact airline travel in that market. Porter airlines is building a new terminal for Canadian intercity flights at St Hubert airport in a suburb next to mine which is predicted to have 4 million passengers yearly.

A good High speed train, downtown to downtown Mtl-TO would definitely beat air travel if it came in under 3 hours…

[Lowell]

I'm not an expert in this area, but it's not just about trains going from Detroit to Windsor. Those underground tunnel freight tracks were never used by passengers. They don't go to the Windsor Passenger Station, which is the terminus station from Toronto. On the US side, the freight tracks to Windsor happen to be right near MCS.

Yes and no. The train tunnel to Windsor was used for passenger trains but not, as you point out, to Windsor station. A route, which I once took back from NYC, went up the Hudson Valley, then followed the Eire Canal west, crossed into Canada at Niagara / Buffalo, then reentered the States via the tunnel.

It is my understanding that the tunnel is limited for freight trains due to its height. So, for example, car carriers won't fit.

[401don]

This idea of expanding rail service, whether U.S. to Canada, high speed within either country, etc. gets revisited every couple of years for, no joke, the last 30-40 years. It is so on the back burner for politicians it's behind the wall behind the stove.

[K-slice]

I prefer restoring light rail service to MCS. Let's start there and see where it goes...

[Gistok]

Yes and no. The train tunnel to Windsor was used for passenger trains but not, as you point out, to Windsor station. A route, which I once took back from NYC, went up the Hudson Valley, then followed the Eire Canal west, crossed into Canada at Niagara / Buffalo, then reentered the States via the tunnel.

It is my understanding that the tunnel is limited for freight trains due to its height. So, for example, car carriers won't fit.

Thanks Lowell... was not aware that passenger trains did cross thru the tunnel. Maybe future Chicago-Detroit-Toronto trains would skip Windsor.

The train tunnel has several restrictions, as you mentioned with car carriers. It is also not usable for double stack containers. I believe there was a study done about 30 years or so ago about raising the height of the tunnels to allow both car carriers and double stack containers, but I don't recall the outcome of the study, or if it was even feasible to raise the height of the tunnels.

[canuck]

This idea of expanding rail service, whether U.S. to Canada, high speed within either country, etc. gets revisited every couple of years for, no joke, the last 30-40 years. It is so on the back burner for politicians it's behind the wall behind the stove.

Well, they are building a pretty significant line in California, the first phase is 850km long, and it is nearing completion. The speeds are expected to run 350km/h.

[401don]

Well, they are building a pretty significant line in California, the first phase is 850km long, and it is nearing completion. The speeds are expected to run 350km/h.

When I said within either country I was referring to Mich. & Ont.
Guess I should have been more specific.

[canuck]

When I said within either country I was referring to Mich. & Ont.
Guess I should have been more specific.

Yep. Okay!

[Richard]

Gistok,you went off on a tangent when it is common knowledge Amtrak and freight lines share rails,the railroad companies hate it but yet they also collect millions in taxpayer assistance,but yet others have been able to pull it off,stop being an enabler and making excuses,get it done.

If they spent half the energy they spent pushing a spite bridge you would already have rails running in your front door and out the back by now.

$6 billion on the bridge,one would think the rail would serve twice the population across 2 countries and probably even some that will never cross the bridge in their lifetime.

DIBC is planning to build a rail from Canada to Michigan,you better get another built before they do,would not want THEM to show you up would you ?

[Király]

Would the Amtrak train be allowed to travel to Canada through the train tunnel?

I live in Vancouver BC and there's a daily Amtrak train to Seattle, so I don't see why not. Unless you mean there's a concern about the tunnel itself...?

[Gistok]

It is good to see that not only is rail being studied for the MCS to Canada route, but as a continuation of the Wolverine Line from Chicago to Detroit to continue on into Canada, but it is also great that improvements for the Wolverine Line are being made.

Add to that the preliminary study/work for the Ann Arbor to Traverse City/Petoskey passenger service.

Another big question is this... how can a New Center station and MCS be connected, if that is feasible? Also if MCS service is started up again, would that impact a final design/build for New Center?

Add into the mix the establishment of service from Detroit/Dearborn to DTW and Ann Arbor. This would be an expensive undertaking for right-of-way and laying track/infrastructure.

So many rail projects that are being studied right now, gives us hope that our automotive centric state can enter the 21st century.

[Burnsie]

Until the 1960s the Detroit River rail tunnel was an important link in a through Chicago-Detroit-New York City & Boston passenger service. It was the whole reason the Michigan Central Station was built way out there-- to be on the direct line to the tunnel so that passenger trains wouldn't have to make a long backup move from the old 3rd St. MC station.

I just checked a 1923 timetable, and some 18 passenger trains a day [[a few less on Sundays) used the tunnel, many with a full complement of sleepers, lounge cars and diners. The Detroit-Windsor rail tunnel's last passenger service was the Detroit-New York City Amtrak "Niagara Rainbow" [[briefly called the Empire State Express) which ran from 10/31/74 to 1/31/79.

The Michigan Central station in Windsor, at the foot of Pelletier St. near the tunnel, succumbed to arson in 1996.

From 1971 to 1974 there were no passenger trains through the tunnel. 1967 saw the final run of the last single-seat/transfer-free Detroit-Toronto passenger train, a modest Canadian Pacific operation.

One tunnel bore was enlarged in 1994 to accommodate most auto carriers and international/marine-height double stacks. Amtrak's Superliners will also fit. It will not accommodate domestic-height double stacks [[two 9' 6" containers) or the highest [["AutoMax") auto carriers; more concrete cannot be removed without affecting the tunnel integrity.

The track between the MC Depot and the New Center is there and used by freights every day. It's a roundabout route, though, passing by the former site of the Clark St. Cadillac plant.

[Richard]

That’s the irony of it all,the same system in place today is the same system that was in place 50 - 80 years ago when they were doing the exact same thing that one is trying to do today.

And it was doing it on a much greater scale,now it becomes,we cannot figure out how to do something that has already been done for the last 150 years with the same exact principle of moving goods and people from point A to point B on top of a steel rail.

[Burnsie]

That’s the irony of it all,the same system in place today is the same system that was in place 50 - 80 years ago when they were doing the exact same thing that one is trying to do today.

And it was doing it on a much greater scale,now it becomes,we cannot figure out how to do something that has already been done for the last 150 years with the same exact principle of moving goods and people from point A to point B on top of a steel rail.

It's really sad, isn't it? The wheel seemingly has to be reinvented with each of these projects, and the bureaucrats say pathetic stuff like "it could be running as soon as 4 years from now!"

The first regularly scheduled passenger train in the US ran on the B&O 13 miles from Baltimore to Ellicott City, MD on 5/22/1830, after breaking ground on 7/4/1828. 193 years ago! The B&O was able to build from scratch something over a longer route in less than half the time that it's supposed to take to get this Detroit-Windsor existing route activated.

[canuck]

That’s the irony of it all,the same system in place today is the same system that was in place 50 - 80 years ago when they were doing the exact same thing that one is trying to do today.

And it was doing it on a much greater scale,now it becomes,we cannot figure out how to do something that has already been done for the last 150 years with the same exact principle of moving goods and people from point A to point B on top of a steel rail.

There are different systems in play. We have a new Electric commuter train [[REM) that will replace an old diesel electric one in Montreal. A tunnel that was built between 1912 and 1916 had to be completely rebuilt to accomodate the new system, its catenaries, etc… The old tunnel’s concrete middle wall was structural, and had to be refitted because of road salt erosion. The work was also slower because all the percussive and drilling work was done with remote controlled machinery, for safety. They have been at it for 4 years, the tunnel is 5kms in length and was dug under Mount Royal to reach Northern suburbs a hundred years ago. Not a small feat.

They also have to build a large station that connects to a metro station at McGill College. There is another station halfway through the tunnel that stops at Université de Montréal, that will be the second deepest subway station in North America; twenty stories deep and connected to another metro station. A commuter would be able to travel between the two university campuses in 5 minutes, the rush hour delays are 3 minutes between trains. So, the tunnels are not that easy to fix, when changing over to newer systems…

[Richard]

^ the Chunnel is 3 tunnels dug 246 feet below the sea bed it took 4 years to dig,the terrorists dug 500 miles of tunnels under Gaza in 5 years ,the Mexicans dig tunnels every day,people were digging tunnels to undermine walls of castles to make them collapse and easy to breach.

Gold and coal miners dug tunnels with a pick ax by hand,during war time coal miners were used to dig tunnels in a manner of weeks that takes years now.

What I find even more interesting is with the new bridge,which is coming in at $6 billion so far does not even include mass transit options or rail options,ideally they could have added a rail system since they were there already,but it is more profitable to come back in a couple of years and come up with the bright idea of adding it then.

We have the advantage of doing stuff that does not require re-inventing the wheel,I just find hard to except the excuse of - we have to figure out how to do it.

Or we have to spend years and millions figuring out how to do it before we even start.

Putting prefabricated sleeves in existing tunnel systems to up-date them is not a new concept and steam engines were a heck of a lot bigger then modern day locomotives.

We need to bring back the titians of industry,they got things done and did not let obstacles stand in their way.

And everything they accomplished was a new concept so they went from thinking about it to building it in a matter of a few years on major projects.

Brightline took 4 years to build 235 miles of rail from scratch from Miami to Orlando,that’s crossing all kinds of terrain including bridges over water ways etc.

The first leg of 170 miles was 6 billion,that’s not just laying tracks,that’s the tracks and all of the supporting infrastructure and stations etc. ready to ride.

A majority of that was private money so there was no excuse why it cannot be done,it got done.

Is that not kinda weird,for the same $6 billion you are spending on one bridge we got 235 miles of newly constructed rail and supporting infrastructure at 120 mph with the same projected economic impact.

The biggest difference is,it was done without costing the taxpayers $6 billion,think about that.

The Orlando airport station alone is over 40,000 sqft ,so it’s not like they built little bus stop stations.

Brightline West between LA and Las Vegas broke ground this year and is going to be a true and a 1st 200 mph.

In Florida the ROW is now in place they can add high speed in the future because the heavy costs are already in place.

[fastcarsandfreedom]

The service -- as proposed -- would serve the existing VIA Windsor Station . The trackage exists but would require upgrades -- it was touched on in the Windsor news conference -- the preliminary plan is for the trains to exit the rail tunnel and take a route through Windsor using the ETR line -- joining up with the existing VIA trackage near the Ford Windsor Engine Plant -- the train would presumably back up into Windsor station before proceeding easterly on the existing line toward Toronto.

[Burnsie]

...the train would presumably back up into Windsor station before proceeding easterly on the existing line toward Toronto.

An Amtrak train would arrive at Windsor [[a new wye track would allow a face first arrival) but you'd have to exit there, schlep through a new Customs facility and get on a VIA train. No single seat ride.

[fastcarsandfreedom]

Did they confirm that?

The other crossborder routes Cascades, Maple Leaf, Adirondack use a single consist for the entire trip to Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal respectively. The previous International service from Chicago to Toronto via the CN tunnel between Port Huron/Sarnia also used the Amtrak equipment for the entire trip.

An Amtrak train would arrive at Windsor [[a new wye track would allow a face first arrival) but you'd have to exit there, schlep through a new Customs facility and get on a VIA train. No single seat ride.

[Burnsie]

Did they confirm that?

The other crossborder routes Cascades, Maple Leaf, Adirondack use a single consist for the entire trip to Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal respectively. The previous International service from Chicago to Toronto via the CN tunnel between Port Huron/Sarnia also used the Amtrak equipment for the entire trip.

None of this concept is confirmed, and as the Amtrak spokesman said, calling it a plan is an overstatement. But yes, the leaked planning document said it would be two trains but a joint ticket: