Building partially collapses at Eastern Market

**Pam** · September-17-23, 12:57 PM

Building partially collapses at Eastern Market; Detroit Fire Department investigates [[fox2detroit.com)

**Richard** · September-17-23, 01:49 PM

Saying emergency demolition order for the building- seriously?

That’s a scratch.

**royce** · September-18-23, 12:12 PM

The third floor of the building houses a workout gym. The brick facade that collapsed is where the workout gym is located. Probably all of the vibration from the people working out led to the weaken of the bricks. I don't think the rest of the building is in any danger.

**401don** · September-18-23, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by royce

I don't think the rest of the building is in any danger.

It is now.

**1953** · September-18-23, 03:25 PM

This building has not been properly assessed and should not be demolished without a proper assessment.

1953

**Jimaz** · September-18-23, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by royce

The third floor of the building houses a workout gym. The brick facade that collapsed is where the workout gym is located. Probably all of the vibration from the people working out led to the weaken of the bricks. I don't think the rest of the building is in any danger.

That is very interesting. Do you know whether weightlifting was done there? Repeatedly dropping weights could easily weaken a structure just like sledgehammers!

In Street View it looks like a normal brick building.

Jabsgym.com does mention weights.

**stasu1213** · September-19-23, 08:44 AM

Were here anyone on the top floors of this building at the time of the collapse? We're there signs of buckling before the collapse? I don't think the continual dropping of weights could had done the damage. The continually dropping of weights could had collapse the floors. Why would the city allow a gym to open on the top or upper floors of any building unless the floors could handle heavy equipment such as a factory, warehouse, or the former train station. Will fire and police be ordered to keep quiet about what had caused the collapse? Who own the building?

**K-slice** · September-19-23, 09:22 AM

Very suspicious that the city wants to tear it down so quickly. It's one of the best used buildings along this strip and it would be a real loss to see it become a vacant lot like happened to the mural covered building that housed Mike Coney Island.

To me, it looks like it was originally built as a 3 story structure and the 4th floor was added on at some point, maybe that additional floor was built in a substandard fashion. Both the architectural details and the picture of the collapse lead me to believe the 4th floor was tacked on.

**canuck** · September-19-23, 11:08 AM

Not sure if it’s a brick veneer problem or a structural underlay problem. You can tell a lot of pointing was done on it over the years. If the 4th floor was tacked on, it could also be a source of trouble.

It’s a bummer for all these businesses. Let’s hope they find replacement spaces soon.

**Kathleen** · September-19-23, 01:07 PM

Steve Neavling at the Metro Times:
Detroit faces backlash over demolition order for partially collapsed landmark in Eastern Market
The city has a woeful track record of allowing salvageable historic buildings to be razed
https://www.metrotimes.com/news/detr...arket-34175392

**stasu1213** · September-19-23, 04:05 PM

I hope this is not a beginning of a trend to get rid of many of Eastern Market all together to make way for greedy opportunistic developers. It is odd how this happened two weeks or so after the couple who were the head of Eastern Market district were hit by a car killing the wife. Sad coincidence.

**royce** · September-19-23, 04:35 PM

The demolition order is BS. You can look at the damage and see that it is only a facade issue. There doesn't appear to be any serious collapse of the roof either. The building that houses Buffalo Wild Wings on Randolph and Monroe [[Old Fellows?) had a similar facade collapse at the back of the building and the building was saved. Somebody wants this building to be torn down for another reason other than it poses a danger to the public.

**Dumpling** · September-20-23, 06:47 AM

While mostly agreeing with all of the remarks, I think that directly across the street was the former Rafal Spice building, and while that business was still operating, its brick wall that faced that street started to bulge and collapse. So it is possible that below that street there is collapsing infrastructure and/or soil movement, but if this is the case it should be made clear.

**stasu1213** · September-20-23, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by Dumpling

While mostly agreeing with all of the remarks, I think that directly across the street was the former Rafal Spice building, and while that business was still operating, its brick wall that faced that street started to bulge and collapse. So it is possible that below that street there is collapsing infrastructure and/or soil movement, but if this is the case it should be made clear.

This building didn't look as it was sagging or buckling beforehand. Someone commented on a gym with weights had operated on the top floor. Who in their right mind would opreate a gym on the top floor of any older building? How did that get passed city ordinance, building codes, and inspections? However if the continually dropping of heavy weight on the affected or compromised the building's structure wouldn't the floors and ceiling of the space below the gym be compromised first by the buckling of the floor and caving in of the ceiling? Bulging streets is probably an excuse some greedy land grabber will use.

**JBMcB** · September-20-23, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by canuck

Not sure if it’s a brick veneer problem or a structural underlay problem. You can tell a lot of pointing was done on it over the years. If the 4th floor was tacked on, it could also be a source of trouble.

I think the buildings are just aging out. The buildings I've been in around there of that vintage are brick-walled with timber joists. Both need regular maintenance, and timbers need to be replaced occasionally.

That's not to say they should be torn down, but inspections need to catch this stuff much earlier rather than later, especially for buildings pushing 100 years old.

**Richard** · September-20-23, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by K-slice

Very suspicious that the city wants to tear it down so quickly. It's one of the best used buildings along this strip and it would be a real loss to see it become a vacant lot like happened to the mural covered building that housed Mike Coney Island.

To me, it looks like it was originally built as a 3 story structure and the 4th floor was added on at some point, maybe that additional floor was built in a substandard fashion. Both the architectural details and the picture of the collapse lead me to believe the 4th floor was tacked on.

That’s what I am seeing also,top floor addition based on the belt above the third floor.

The picture looks like the top floor is set back in from the outer facade,which would leave a water intrusion point if not properly maintained which would degrade the mortar joints over time or if the windows were not sealed and water intrusion got in there.

It just looks strange,it would have had to fail at the bottom most part and pull the rest down but it seems to have separated from the roof easy enough which also makes zero sense because there would have had to been attachment points to the roof and not just setting there on top.

All of that weight combined with the loss of the 2 structural columns should have pulled the roof down.

But 2 structural support columns are blown out and the roof altho sagging is still there,so it was not built sub standard.

If I was a conspiracy type and just based on the picture,if the roof ties to the wall were severed,easy enough to knock the wall out.The support columns are gone like they just sheared off but something had to kick them out in order to drop,even with no mortar or attached to the roof or bottom header the weight of them combined with the weight of the roof would have help them in place.

Unless a forklift or something ran into them,in the center of the two windows.An explosion would have been more plausible but witnesses on FB did not report an explosion,they described it as a popping sound like with fire works then the crash.

Thats really not a complicated or hard fix.

It was more common to remove upper floors due to fire damage back in the day then adding though.

But considering the amount of incentives out there when it comes to affordable housing it may have been an incentive to bring it down and put up a larger multi story mixed use with residential.

**Kathleen** · September-21-23, 08:09 AM

Neal Rubin: Let's look before we leap to knock down that damaged building in Eastern Market
https://www.freep.com/story/news/col...s/70896525007/

**JBMcB** · September-21-23, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Kathleen

[B]Neal Rubin: Let's look before we leap to knock down that damaged building in Eastern Market

From the article:
"Without anyone venturing inside, the city declared its intention over the weekend to finish the job that the mysterious wall-slide started. Unsafe, decreed the Buildings, Safety Engineering and Environmental Department, along with the Detroit Fire Department. Gotta go."

I think that inspectors not "venturing inside" is how the building got to the point where the wall collapsed to begin with.

I'm not sure how it works in Detroit, but I have relatives who own a business in Grosse Pointe, and they have an inspector come every few years to make sure the building is safe. As the building is old, they find stuff fairly regularly.

**K-slice** · September-21-23, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by JBMcB

From the article:
"Without anyone venturing inside, the city declared its intention over the weekend to finish the job that the mysterious wall-slide started. Unsafe, decreed the Buildings, Safety Engineering and Environmental Department, along with the Detroit Fire Department. Gotta go."

I think that inspectors not "venturing inside" is how the building got to the point where the wall collapsed to begin with.

I'm not sure how it works in Detroit, but I have relatives who own a business in Grosse Pointe, and they have an inspector come every few years to make sure the building is safe. As the building is old, they find stuff fairly regularly.

I wouldn't at all be surprised if BEESD looked at their inspection records, saw they were lacking, and ordered the emergency demolition. Destroy any evidence before it can some to light!

Good news is the owner wants to look into saving it. No surprise as he has obviously sunk great sums of cash into the place to get it where it is today.

**Jimaz** · September-21-23, 11:35 AM

This collapse seemed to catch everyone off guard.

I would think that alone would justify sending in structural engineers {and they, if anyone, should be able to determine their safety} to assess what failed.

It can't be prevented from happening again unless we learn what caused the failure.

Blame aside, recognize it as the learning opportunity it is.

**Richard** · September-21-23, 12:46 PM

We already know what caused it and it is something that every home owner or property owner has to deal with,it’s called maintenance.

The older a building is the more maintenance is required,they do not just fall apart.

The biggest problem is water intrusion which can be prevented by keeping up with tuck pointing the brick work and making sure windows are sealed up.

The biggest problem with buildings of that age ?

They used Lime based mortar in the brickwork and construction,when repairs are done and regular concrete of today is used even in tuck pointing it degrades the lime based
concrete and mortar that is behind it causing it to crumble into powder and fail.

There is a reason Roman concrete lasted 1000 years it was the lime.

So not only do those old buildings need to be maintained,they also in some cases need to be maintained with the same materials that they were built with otherwise it becomes a case of accelerated breakdown of the existing materials.

The points of water ingress there would have been the roof line and the two windows,water seeping in and flowing down to the floor level where it was probably trapped and degraded the concrete,it is plausible that the lifting and slamming of the weights played a role because vibrations travel through concrete.

Agreed with the most cities require a building inspection even more so commercial where the public is involved,all the recent collapses across the country were tied to a lack of the inspection process even where they were required.

**ABetterDetroit** · September-21-23, 07:22 PM

Since blaming Detroit for this building’s failure is common on this thread while the owner of the property somehow is just a victim of the city’s negligence, I will offer another theory. It could be that Detroit’s quick demolition order was intended to tell the owner of the collapsing building and their insurance company to get their shit together right quick because this building is a safety risk in a high trafficked location and messing around for half a decade would not be tolerated in this case. If that was the point they wanted to drive home it might have been successful.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...l/70919587007/

**canuck** · September-21-23, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

We already know what caused it and it is something that every home owner or property owner has to deal with,it’s called maintenance.

The older a building is the more maintenance is required,they do not just fall apart.

The biggest problem is water intrusion which can be prevented by keeping up with tuck pointing the brick work and making sure windows are sealed up.

The biggest problem with buildings of that age ?

They used Lime based mortar in the brickwork and construction,when repairs are done and regular concrete of today is used even in tuck pointing it degrades the lime based
concrete and mortar that is behind it causing it to crumble into powder and fail.

There is a reason Roman concrete lasted 1000 years it was the lime.

So not only do those old buildings need to be maintained,they also in some cases need to be maintained with the same materials that they were built with otherwise it becomes a case of accelerated breakdown of the existing materials.

The points of water ingress there would have been the roof line and the two windows,water seeping in and flowing down to the floor level where it was probably trapped and degraded the concrete,it is plausible that the lifting and slamming of the weights played a role because vibrations travel through concrete.

Agreed with the most cities require a building inspection even more so commercial where the public is involved,all the recent collapses across the country were tied to a lack of the inspection process even where they were required.

Yes, as far as I know, the cement used for pointing nowadays is too hard.

It’s not so much the lime but the portland cement part that fux the pointing up. I used a mixture of lime and sand on one of my old houses in Montreal about ten years ago. There was no cement per se in the mix. When it rains, the sand and lime mixture repels the water by expanding in the joints. These were small joints 3/16ths in width on greystone walls.

The problem with taller buildings is that they are designed with compressive strength in mind, but older smaller buildings benefit from a softer mix. You see a lot of brickwork on recent buildings that are slabs of pre-laid bricks in various sizes that are hoisted in place for veneer. The panels can be repaired without compromising the structure the way an entire interlock does.

**Richard** · September-22-23, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Since blaming Detroit for this building’s failure is common on this thread while the owner of the property somehow is just a victim of the city’s negligence, I will offer another theory. It could be that Detroit’s quick demolition order was intended to tell the owner of the collapsing building and their insurance company to get their shit together right quick because this building is a safety risk in a high trafficked location and messing around for half a decade would not be tolerated in this case. If that was the point they wanted to drive home it might have been successful.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...l/70919587007/

Depends on how one defines safety risk,expand the photo in your link,that’s a pretty hefty steel I beam as a header above the windows,Jack plates from that floor to the roof would secure the roof and stabilize it.

Looks like something has been done in that section in the past.

Detroit does not have any unique problems that nobody else in the country has so no need to get defensive.

Have you seen the vintage apartment building in another city where the whole side bulged and collapsed,it happens.

**Henry Whalley** · September-22-23, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

If that was the point they wanted to drive home it might have been successful.

But that would make sense so, IMHO it couldn't possibly be true. Perhaps the exchequer from the city's graft bureau found the owner's bribes to be in arrears? Perhaps the message was that Eastern Market could be demised like the former Greektown.?