Duggan proposes solar panels on Detroit's vacant land

[DavidGeorge]

But even then, this is destructive to a power grid. Power companies have to maintain 120 volts. So power generation that comes and goes with the gusts, and is not predictable in real time is a nightmare for power companies.

Why is that exactly? Elon Musk said the power flow can be stabilized by a battery farm and all his Tesla car batteries get a second life now by being recycled as solar and wind farm batteries. Are you now saying you're smarter than Elon Musk?

[mwilbert]

Why is that exactly? Elon Musk said the power flow can be stabilized by a battery farm and all his Tesla car batteries get a second life now by being recycled as solar and wind farm batteries. Are you now saying you're smarter than Elon Musk?

Elon Musk says a lot of stuff, including a lot of stuff that isn't exactly true. And whether a lot of old Tesla batteries will end up being used for that is open to question--I guess we will see. But it is true that batteries [[among many things) will help keep the grid stable as more intermittent/variable power gets added. But it's also true that we haven't put as many of those measures into place as we will need to as the percentage of electricity being produced by solar and wind continues to increase. As of now, batteries for grid storage have very limited deployment.

[Rocket]

Why is that exactly? Elon Musk said the power flow can be stabilized by a battery farm and all his Tesla car batteries get a second life now by being recycled as solar and wind farm batteries. Are you now saying you're smarter than Elon Musk?

No, Elon and I agree.

You missed the first 2 lines of my post, where I said;


"The biggest problem with wind and solar remains energy storage.

You simply CANNOT have something generating variable amounts of power connected to a grid. It's not like gasoline that neatly stores in a tank. Storing wind and solar energy for use in the evening or to charge your car when you get home from work costs exponentially more than the wind and solar generators themselves."


Yes, a battery farm would solve the problem. But at HORRIFIC cost. Batteries are about the least cost effective way to store power ever invented. They're also toxic, prone to exploding, and they have a limited lifespan.

If they can ever solve that problem, green energy will finally be viable.

[Richard]

Forgive my ignorance here, but I am genuinely curious:

Has wind generated power fallen out in favor of solar?

The direction we go in requires subsidies,so the government can steer funding towards the direction they want to go in.

Lots of pushback against wind turbines in or near populated areas so the path of least resistance is solar so that’s where to funding is directed at.

plus it takes 3 acres per wind turbine,the city does not have enough land to place enough turbines to make a difference.

When the city is talking about highest and best use for vacant land and using taxpayer dollars in order to improve it,I would lean more towards taking the same land and funds to sweeten the pot in order to have somebody put a silicone chip factory there.

Taiwan currently provides 95% of all of the chips needed in this country/world for all of the technology,everything including the ones that would be needed to run a solar farm.

If one is looking for highest and best use for Industrial land that provides jobs/diversity in the economy and advances the region in the technology field,a chip factory would be more prudent.

They are rather large so you could also put your solar panel on the roof and kill two birds with one stone.

Take the same money you are already going to spend in invest in the cities future.

By the time the taxpayers finish paying for a solar farm,it will be obsolete so it becomes a continues investment that will be offset by federal incentives,but people seem to have a short memory of what happened to the solar industry across the world when money became tight and governments had to cut budgets,it crashed like a rock from 60,000 ‘ ,overnight.

There seems to be a lot of time and energy looking for ways to increase the load on the current taxpayers versus investments that expand the tax base and lightens the load.

[mwilbert]

Yes, a battery farm would solve the problem. But at HORRIFIC cost. Batteries are about the least cost effective way to store power ever invented. They're also toxic, prone to exploding, and they have a limited lifespan.

If they can ever solve that problem, green energy will finally be viable.

The storage problem will certainly be solved, although not necessarily with batteries, and almost certainly not with lithium batteries. There are plenty of non-toxic, non-exploding, battery chemistries. In all likelihood one of the many existing technologies will get cheap enough, but if not, there are many more in the works. I'm currently optimistic about Form Energy's iron-air system, which should be able to be produced cheaply enough to be used widely. But while they have sold a number of systems, they have just started building their factory, so we won't have a full-scale implementation for at least a couple more years.

Note that even now green energy can be economically competitive. You might look into Peninsula Clean Energy, which is on track to provide 99% clean [[no fossil, no nuclear, no large hydro) energy 24/7 to it's customers by 2025, at a lower price than PG&E, the local incumbent utility. This is in California where the problem is easier than in Michigan [[conventional power prices are higher in CA, seasonal issues less significant), but it's clearly doable.

[Henry Whalley]

P.S. One benefit of using guardian dogs is that, unlike some LEOs, dogs don't take bribes.

And they don't hang out in donut shops.

[Richard]

The storage problem will certainly be solved, although not necessarily with batteries, and almost certainly not with lithium batteries. There are plenty of non-toxic, non-exploding, battery chemistries. In all likelihood one of the many existing technologies will get cheap enough, but if not, there are many more in the works. I'm currently optimistic about Form Energy's iron-air system, which should be able to be produced cheaply enough to be used widely. But while they have sold a number of systems, they have just started building their factory, so we won't have a full-scale implementation for at least a couple more years.

Note that even now green energy can be economically competitive. You might look into Peninsula Clean Energy, which is on track to provide 99% clean [[no fossil, no nuclear, no large hydro) energy 24/7 to it's customers by 2025, at a lower price than PG&E, the local incumbent utility. This is in California where the problem is easier than in Michigan [[conventional power prices are higher in CA, seasonal issues less significant), but it's clearly doable.

Its not a one size fits all situation like it’s being approached and the funding is laser focused.

I can get tax credits if I stick solar on my roof,but not if I replace the shingles with solar shingles,solar siding or solar windows,it’s all possible and the technology is there,in theroy I could incorporate all the building materials as one big solar grabbing power plant without installing one solar panel as we know it.

It’s not a matter of the free market dictating green energy advancement and available options it’s a few people pointing which direction they want it to go in simply by offering the subsidies,it does not really have to make sense and it stifles advancement.

In the true sense of it was up to the free market the pace would be advancing faster in a race to see who could build a better mouse trap and corner the market.

Its like the automakers of the 80s,no matter how crappy you build a product and it is free or people are willing to buy it,why change it?

Advancement in technology has always been based in that,it is throttled in order to maximize RÓI.

No different then all the products sold,if you are advertising - New and improved - are you really telling people that the product was not really that good when you bought it and now that the numbers are falling we improved it to that standards that it should have been when we sold not to you in the first place.

If you have to spend billions of dollars in order to pay people to buy your products in order for them to justify the purchase,it might be time to have a product review.

I have a couple of deep storage batteries,I could easily switch my house lighting to 12 v and use inverters to power a majority of my power needs,but it is pointless because the power company just jacks up the basic service cost.

My power bill has increased over $75 in the last 3 months,a lot of it is for future green energy cost of implementing,it does not matter how much I reduce my power consumption the base cost is increasing more then actual consumption.

Implementing solar is not going to drive down the cost to the consumers,unless you go completely off grid,because the power company is not going to take a pay cut so you can shave $50 off of your power bill by switching to solar.

Most city’s view your house uninhabitable if you disconnect from the grid .

So you install a solar system and the only efficient way to do it is to buy your own system,so you are not only out of pocket for that,you also have to pay the extra monthly costs that you are billed for by the power company so they can convert to solar.

So you are paying twice.

We would be in jail if we tried doing that to people.

Without the ability to go off grid in a urban setting,there seems to be very few advantages and a very expensive way to save the planet.

You have to be really really really in love with the idea that you are actually doing something that is making a difference and believe it.

[DavidGeorge]

No, Elon and I agree.

You missed the first 2 lines of my post, where I said;


"The biggest problem with wind and solar remains energy storage.

You simply CANNOT have something generating variable amounts of power connected to a grid. It's not like gasoline that neatly stores in a tank. Storing wind and solar energy for use in the evening or to charge your car when you get home from work costs exponentially more than the wind and solar generators themselves."


Yes, a battery farm would solve the problem. But at HORRIFIC cost. Batteries are about the least cost effective way to store power ever invented. They're also toxic, prone to exploding, and they have a limited lifespan.

If they can ever solve that problem, green energy will finally be viable.

So, you're saying switching the grid to solar and using battery farms is a bad idea.

So, why does Elon Musk keep mentioning in his interviews this:
“If you wanted to power the entire U.S. with solar panels, it would take a fairly small corner of Nevada or Texas or Utah; you only need about 100 miles by 100 miles of solar panels to power the entire United States,” Musk said."
And then he brings up how power could be delivered at night using battery farms.

You're basically saying it's not realistic.

Yet, Elon keeps bringing up these points like he believes it's realistic. Why is bringing it up if it's not realistic? Some say it's not realistic to have a million people live on Mars, yet Elon thinks it is.

Elon also started from nothing and is now one of the richest people on the planet, so I don't think he's a wacko and his ideas are in crazy land because it's his ideas and genius that made him so rich.

So, why are you saying. "No, Elon and I agree." if you're disagreeing?

You're quite the contradiction. Are you agreeing with what he said that we could power the US by solar because it seems to me that what you're saying about what Elon is suggesting is ridiculous.

BTW, I know you're going to say, read my response again, "Yes, a battery farm would solve the problem. But at HORRIFIC cost. ..."

And my answer is, so what? Everything has a horrific cost. That doesn't kill the argument to use solar panels to power the grid. They say gas has a horrific cost with climate change. The gas in your car is also highly explosive. Natural gas is also highly explosive. When oil is refined to gas, the plastic is toxic. Oil spills are toxic to wildlife. Coal is also bad for the environment. Everything has a horrific cost, so your counter argument about horrific costs isn't worth 2 cents.

[Lowell]

Yes, a battery farm would solve the problem. But at HORRIFIC cost. Batteries are about the least cost effective way to store power ever invented. They're also toxic, prone to exploding, and they have a limited lifespan.

If they can ever solve that problem, green energy will finally be viable.

We already have an emerging battery farm, albeit a distributed one. With millions of e-powered vehicles already here and arriving, they are forming the ability to feed power back into the grid. Can't find the reference just now, but this has already happened in California during a high demand situation. Since most cars spend a huge majority of their time parked, the potential for owners to resell that power to the grid exists.

It has been calculated that there will be sufficient two-way storage to prevent outages for both the grid as well as individual homes that have local outages due to power line disruption from storms, etc.

There is a lot of concern about where the power will come from for all the new electric-powered vehicles from the existing grid. The answer is that the power-plant grid is largely unused during night times and, since that is when the vast majority of vehicles will recharge, the demand can be met.

[Lowell]

Another innovative battery form of storage is the use of former underground mines. This has successfully been done in Germany. The lower depths of the mine are filled with water.

A solar panel farm generates electricity, the excess of which pumps the water to upper levels of the mine, and when night comes, or more power is needed, the upper mine water is released through turbines to generate power, then pumped back up again when the sun shines.

[JBMcB]

A solar panel farm generates electricity, the excess of which pumps the water to upper levels of the mine, and when night comes, or more power is needed, the upper mine water is released through turbines to generate power, then pumped back up again when the sun shines.

I've never heard of using mines before for pumped water energy storage, that's a great idea. Using pumped water to store energy has been around for decades and is a proven technology. There's an enormous installation in a valley in Tennessee that, I think, is the most famous. But, there's been one in Michigan since the 1970's.

https://www.consumersenergy.com/comp...ro-electricity

[Rocket]

We already have an emerging battery farm,..........With millions of e-powered vehicles already here and arriving, they are forming the ability to feed power back into the grid.

That was the hope early on, that a few million of these would be plugged in most of the time, and they could feed power into the grid when needed, and charge when not needed.

Couple issues though.

One is that a battery's life is determined by the amount of charging and discharging. Mostly charging, where the input voltage is above the batteries design voltage. So using the batteries 2-3x as much as they would for just the car driving would shorten the battery life from 10-13 years down to about 4. At at a cost of $20k - $30k to replace [Tesla Model S], it's horrifically expensive. So really you're just borrowing battery production from the future to use now, as opposed to changing the cost / benefit equation.

The other issue is that it doesn't do much of anything to make "green" energy viable. If those cars are at work while the homeowner's solar panels are making electricity, it does nothing to solve that issue.

It would only help for those that work from home in the day. Their cars could capture solar output from their roofs and store it in the cars, and the car in turn could power the fridge and A/C after sunset, [presuming the owner didn't need to drive anywhere the next day]. But again, doing that would dramatically shorten the lifespan of their car's VERY expensive battery.

People that live off-grid have elaborate setups to store solar and wind, and then convert it to 120 / 240V A/C. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kisLSdFVF6I


The most popular battery brand seems to be BattleBorn lithium. You buy 16 or so of these and wire it into your chargers and converters. Here is a setup with a more expensive brand of batteries that are much larger, so he only needs 12. https://www.amazon.com/LiFePO4-Volt-.../dp/B06XX197GJ

Even then, they need to be replaced every couple of years. And a small home needs perhaps 16 of them. So you need to factor in a cost of $5,000 or so per year for battery replacement, and they can't really be recycled. And replacing them is a lot more difficult than you'd think. Things have to be shut down in a sequence, and the newer batteries have to be kept on a separate system. So if 1 goes bad, you must replace ALL of the batteries on that inverter/charger. So 2 inverter/chargers, each with $8,000 worth of batteries. And after the first few years, you replace 1/2 of them one year and 1/2 the next.


Water lift / hydro is the best if you have a 1,000' deep mine nearby and a few hundred K to spend on equipment. Flywheel storage is another. But the needed solution to make it cost effective has yet to be invented it seems.

[canuck]

Elon claims we are bound to build a new civilization on Mars. He is the one to spearhead it. The reason is that our planet is beyond repair, etc…

Do any of you believe this to be logical, reasonable, desirable, feasible?

Not me.

[Jimaz]

...
Do any of you believe this to be logical, reasonable, desirable, feasible?
....

Absolutely not. LOL!

Mars is just a fuel-sucking gravity well. It would be far more reasonable to set a long term goal — a very very long term goal — of indefinitely sustaining human life in the vacuum of space.

Even if we don't completely wreck the planet {and we shouldn't even have to consider that obvious blunder}, the planet still won't last forever. Our distant descendants will be very annoyed with us if they survive that long and we don't at least try to plan a graceful exit for them.

I wouldn't scoff at the idea that this lofty goal is the primary purpose of humanity.

I've read the excuses for Elon launching a Tesla into space and I don't buy them. In the competition between which is larger, his ego or his intellect, his intellect doesn't stand a chance.

Expandable, sustainable solar farms in space. There's a good place to start.

[Rocket]

We also have to consider the believe-ability of these so-called "scientists".

In 1978 these liars were warning us of the impending Ice-Age that we were causing, and how all life would end. Then just 2-3 years later in the early 1980's these same liars were warning us of the impending global warming we were causing, and how all life would end.

Al Gore and his team of scientists warning us of how New York would be under water by 2018.

Yet here we are decades later, temps within a fraction of a degree, and the water around New York is at the exact same level as it was.

Just because some hyper-liar has a degree from somewhere, and does nothing of value for a living isn't reason enough to bankrupt the world with "save the planet" schemes.

[Lowell]

From today's Free Press. GM's two-way charging offers a solution to home power outage situations. Better and quieter than the natural gas-powered generator I have.

Solutions like these will power EV adoption. "Look! It's not just a car. It's also a power source that will keep your refrigerator running in the summer and your furnace running in the winter when the lights goes out."

[Richard]

Elon claims we are bound to build a new civilization on Mars. He is the one to spearhead it. The reason is that our planet is beyond repair, etc…

Do any of you believe this to be logical, reasonable, desirable, feasible?

Not me.

I believe parts of humanity are beyond repair,but not the planet,it has a history of wiping itself clean and starting over,we have always just been temporary visitors here.

A long time ago somebody in a city called Detroit made a bet that EVs was going to be a thing of the future and look at Jetsons,how much of that has actually become a reality.

Musk is a pioneer of innovation it’s kinda what built Detroit,back when they showed the world how it was done and not followed the crowd,if he was not,then everybody else would not be trying to be the next Tesla.

He is doing what the government is paying him to do,stretch the boundaries of technology.

What we do not know is if the Martians are NIMBY and will vaporize anybody that lands.

The rate we are going we are going to destroy the planet in order to save it,we gonna need a plan B.

[Richard]

From today's Free Press. GM's two-way charging offers a solution to home power outage situations. Better and quieter than the natural gas-powered generator I have.

Solutions like these will power EV adoption. "Look! It's not just a car. It's also a power source that will keep your refrigerator running in the summer and your furnace running in the winter when the lights goes out."

Nissan Leaf and VW was already capable end of 2021,it gives you 2 days worth of household power,then you have to break out the gas generator and charge the vehicle back up.

Great for those temporary power outages though.

Considering the amount of batteries that have been catching on fire as of late,if I had an EV I do not think I would be inclined to park it in the garage as pictured.

[Henry Whalley]

https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...d/70356311007/

Hasn't this thread veered way off topic?

[Dan Wesson]

Hasn't this thread veered way off topic?

Yea, who’s gonna knock the snow and ice of them acres of solar panels?

[Jimaz]

How "solar grazing" is creating a new industry

In many parts of the country, agricultural land is being used to house solar panels. The panels create renewable energy, and the land remains usable for grazing farm animals, which control the vegetation around the technology. The two fields working together have led to a new industry called "agri-solar."

I just love watching border collies at work. They seem so elated with their mastery.