Duggan proposes solar panels on Detroit's vacant land

[Lowell]

What a great idea. And reconversion for residential or industrial, should the demand ever rise, would be simple without a lot of remediation.

"Mayor Mike Duggan on Wednesday is slated to unveil a new initiative to turn at least some of those unloved neighborhood properties into hosts for solar power arrays, generating renewable energy for city-owned buildings — if the neighbors are OK with that.

"Beginning July 1, block clubs, neighborhood associations or groups of at least five neighbors can fill out an online form expressing their interest in possibly becoming a Solar Power Neighborhood. Staff from the city Department of Neighborhoods will then begin "a series of conversations" with those expressing interest, looking to see whether they have suitable parcels for possible solar development, said Erinn Harris, the department's deputy director."

https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...d/70356311007/

[Rocket]

Are all the panels going to be federally subsidized?

I ask because in Michigan, solar panels never really pay for themselves like they do in much sunnier areas of the country. They're also dirtier than the current means, and they require maintenance.

If they're not being 1/2 paid for by people living in other states or countries, then it will be a financial negative.

[Lowell]

I ask because in Michigan, solar panels never really pay for themselves like they do in much sunnier areas of the country. .

Is that a fact? Are all the solar panels put up by DTE and others losers?

From what I've heard improving technology is making solar both cheaper and more productive.

[313WX]

That may not work out as well as he hopes [[and thus may not be the most worth while investment) in a city that's excessively cloudy like Detroit...

[JBMcB]

From what I've heard improving technology is making solar both cheaper and more productive.

The problem with a lot of the estimates of solar energy production is they are based on either an average production model, or best-case production model.

In Arizona or Nevada, when you have an average of 300 sunny days a year, solar panels can generate quite a lot of energy per dollar spent. In Michigan, when you're lucky to get 180 days of sun, it's not necessarily worth it. There are other factors, like tree cover, the angle of the sun relative to the panel location, etc... However, days of full sun is the main driver of efficiency, as cloud cover drastically reduces the amount of energy produced.

I think a better use of funding would be to make existing houses more energy efficient. I've heard that every dollar spent on weatherstripping and blown insulation can save far more energy than the same dollar spent on solar panels can produce. That's in wintery, non-equatorial areas, at least.

[Meddle]

Weather is an issue, but I'd be more concerned about vandalism and taking property out of service for other uses.

I'd rather see these on top of larger buildings like schools and industrial facilities, or over parking areas.

[Richard]

Mixed messaging,it takes a 20 acer plot but has repeatedly said that business or factories cannot locate in the city because there are no plots of land that size.

They could have used the roof of the Packard plant to do the same thing without removing any land from the availability list,to late for that though.

I have not looked for it for awhile but the GM plant has a solar array that was posted online that gave real time output results,if it is still there that would tell you efficiency rates.

[Rocket]

Is that a fact? Are all the solar panels put up by DTE and others losers?

Yes, pretty much. Though DTE has a few special incentives over businesses and homeowners, one being green 'quotas systems' that they are forced to meet. There are also some small marketing/reputation benefits.

From what I've heard improving technology is making solar both cheaper and more productive.

Very true. However, wind and solar are still very dirty forms of power generation, at least once you take into account the manufacturer and disposal of the equipment. They also have a lifespan. Their energy production starts tapering off after a few years, and by 20 years there's not much point in keeping them. They also require cleaning pretty regularly [which is difficult, even dangerous on many roofs].

If they lasted 50 years, didn't need a bunch of coal to produce, didn't massively increase the cost of roof replacements, didn't need periodic cleaning, didn't destabilize the power grid, and if there was a way to recycle them, then they'd be terrific.

The power produced / cost ratio has been steadily improving, but none of the other drawbacks seem to have been solved.

[401don]

I know little about this but here in Toronto area we are seeing quite a few homes in the burbs with panels on the roofs and I've received calls asking if I'm interested in having them installed for free. I assume then that this is heavily gov't subsidized? Ontario has more than enough electricity and sells it to the U.S. [[when it's not giving it away). Also, my wife's family in Northern Ireland says it's very common over there to have them on their homes. Not a lot of sunshine in N. Ireland.

[Meddle]

I've received calls asking if I'm interested in having them installed for free.

Be careful. That can be kind of a scam. Details vary, so do some searching about the pros and cons of the various contracts.

[401don]

Be careful. That can be kind of a scam. Details vary, so do some searching about the pros and cons of the various contracts.

Thanks but I don't need to worry. I'm in a condo townhouse so can't put them in anyway.

[1953]

Author and geopolitical strategist Peter Zeihan has made the case that solar doesn't yet work in our area. Here's a thread on the topic:

https://twitter.com/PeterZeihan/stat...68124525809664

And here is a map of where it might, per Zeihan:

https://twitter.com/PeterZeihan/stat...772416/photo/1

Personally, I think filling empty neighborhoods with solar panels is probably a pretty ugly way to be, plus, I worry what happens when solar panels improve and we are left with tons of panels that are much less efficient and not needed all over the place.

1953

[drjeff]

That may not work out as well as he hopes [[and thus may not be the most worth while investment) in a city that's excessively cloudy like Detroit...

Solar panels work fine on cloudy days. They generate more power in direct sunlight but any light will generate energy. The only time they don't do anything is at night.

[Rocket]

Solar panels work fine on cloudy days. They generate more power in direct sunlight but any light will generate energy. The only time they don't do anything is at night.

Well, the point of it isn't if they make SOME electricity, it's do they make enough to offset the costs and the environmental damage.

Typical solar panels make 10% - 25% of their full capacity when it's cloudy. Solar is of marginal benefit in the best of cases, and Michigan is far from best case. Here it's a modest environmental negative and a huge waste of money.


Arizona is a different story.

[313WX]

Well, the point of it isn't if they make SOME electricity, it's do they make enough to offset the costs and the environmental damage.

Exactly.

And I'd say an extremely troubled city like Detroit could find much better things to spend that money on...

[Richard]

Exactly.

And I'd say an extremely troubled city like Detroit could find much better things to spend that money on...

I think you are missing the point in all of this green energy,save the planet stuff.

There is a trillion dollars in free money sitting there,if you want to get rich figure out how to get you some,you cannot look at it as being beneficial to anybody and it does not matter if it improves anybodys life in anyway,it is exactly what it was sold as.

A way to generate income and put money back into the economy.

It’s a stimulus package,that’s the beauty in it all you get paid to pretend you are doing something because you are turning peoples emotions into cash while not really doing anything,you just have to make it look like you are.

Thats the way the government works,if you throw enough cash at something eventually you will get the results you desire,collecting millions for pie in the sky dreams is already factored in and in the bigger picture those millions are worth the loss to the government because sooner or later they will meet their objectives.

Do not get caught up with the emotions or helping others or benefiting society,stick your bucket out when it is raining because all it takes is one change in order and it all grinds to a halt,windows of opportunity open you have to take advantage before they close.

The more outlandish you make it,the easier it is to sell it.

[Rocket]

Heard a story on the radio tonight.

Apparently a HUGE solar farm recently installed in Nebraska was totally destroyed by hail Firday. 5.2 megawatt worth?

https://cowboystatedaily.com/2023/06...ff-solar-farm/


In 2021, solar had nearly $100 BILLION in losses from nature.

That Nebraska farm probably cost about $5 million by itself.

[Henry Whalley]

Weather is an issue, but I'd be more concerned about vandalism...

I thought about vandalism as well.

One solution is that you don't install panels at ground level. You suspend them about seventy feet above ground level on stilts made of angle iron. The average lot is 3200 sq ft. So you create a 3200 sq ft awning/canopy of solar panels. In the canopy's umbra you plant sugar maples or other trees that thrive in shade. You cover the ground with pine needles or mulch. So, you're generating electricity as well as creating oxygen and cool shade. Also, sugar maples can be tapped for maple syrup. Imagine Motor City Maple Syrup. The angle iron stilts can be concealed and beautified with climbing and flowering vines. Also, you can make the metal stilts climb-proof by electrifying the top ten feet or so. These wooded shady lots would be like mini parks all throughout the city. I recall when Detroit was shaded by elm trees. These lots would similarly beautify the neighborhoods. Wildlife, honeybees, and butterflies, love these parks as well.

Lastly, it's possible to train guard dogs to recognize the smell of junkies or meth addicts. Residents of each neighborhood could contribute by feeding one or two guard dogs who in turn could keep the residents safe.

P.S. IMHO dogs are grossly under-utilized for neighborhood watches. If dogs can be trained to sniff out diabetes and cancer, they certainly can be trained to keep junkies and drug dealers away from their designated neighborhood.

P.P.S. Sugar maples grow to a height of 70 feet.

[djtomt]

Forgive my ignorance here, but I am genuinely curious:

Has wind generated power fallen out in favor of solar?

[Rocket]

I thought about vandalism as well.

One solution is that you don't install panels at ground level. You suspend them about seventy feet above ground level on stilts made of angle iron.

That would work, but it would also quadruple the cost. Think about how strong that structure would have to be to have 3,200 sq feet of what are essentially sails, up at 70', and have that structure not fall over in a 180 mph wind? [In 2008 we had a storm with 1-minute sustained wind speeds of 144 mph, and 3-second gusts of 184 mph].

If the panels are mounted at a 45 degree angle, that gives a force of 196,000 pounds,.. SIDEWAYS, at 70 FEET in the air. The moment-arm of that at ground level is colossal. The structure would essentially be twice the strength ot the steel structure of a Costco building, and with a substantial cement footing. Half of that ground area would need to be massive cement casings.

Also, workers will need to get up there often to wash the panels, so there would need to be walkways around and in-between the panels, and a water supply, ladder etc. And even all that doesn't protect from hail damage, though we don't usually get really big hail here.

On top of commercial buildings is the only viable solution, and that comes with the additional expense of having to take down the panels when the roofs get replaced. So businesses would need to be paid to install a new roof right before the solar, and then they can throw away the roof and the solar panels every 20 years together.

Residents of each neighborhood could contribute by feeding one or two guard dogs who in turn could keep the residents safe.

...they certainly can be trained to keep junkies and drug dealers away from their designated neighborhood.

That's a liability nightmare. If the dogs are chained up so they can't bite the druggies, then the druggies will ignore them. If the dogs ARE allowed to bite, then whomever is in control of the dogs will be sued for millions.

[Rocket]

Forgive my ignorance here, but I am genuinely curious:

Has wind generated power fallen out in favor of solar?

Wind has it's problems too.

Those big turbines are ecological disasters. They produce a low noise that interferes with sleep, and are ugly.

Smaller ones on top of buildings are nice, but they must need a lot of maintenance, as most don't seem to operate.

I see 4 installed on the roof of a building on the East side of the Lodge, about a mile north of the gold skyscrapers in Southfield. But rarely do I see any of them turning.

There's a new and very interesting design that has fewer moving parts, and the blades aren't visible. They sit on the windward edge of a tall buildings roof. https://www.aerominetechnologies.com/

But even then, this is destructive to a power grid. Power companies have to maintain 120 volts. So power generation that comes and goes with the gusts, and is not predictable in real time is a nightmare for power companies.

[mwilbert]

Forgive my ignorance here, but I am genuinely curious:

Has wind generated power fallen out in favor of solar?

Not fallen out of favor exactly, but the price of solar generation has fallen much faster than the price of wind generation, so naturally people move more toward solar. The advantage of wind is that you can still use the land around the turbines for other stuff, while a big solar farm pretty much completely uses the land, so wind is more compatible with farmland. But on the other hand, you can put smaller solar installations on roofs, or over things like parking lots or pipelines where it's not generally going to be practical to capture wind energy.

People keep working on new designs for wind capture, so perhaps this will change in the future. It's good to have wind as an additional source, as it's often windy when it's not sunny, or vice-versa.

[DavidGeorge]

That's a liability nightmare. If the dogs are chained up so they can't bite the druggies, then the druggies will ignore them. If the dogs ARE allowed to bite, then whomever is in control of the dogs will be sued for millions.

You don't need to guard a facility with real dogs anymore.
Boston Dynamics already sells AI robotic dogs that can interface with ChatGPT for $75K.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGz09OMDkro

The NYPD already incorporated Digidogs into their force two year ago and near the end of the video they said they used it to respond to a home invasion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24jufNhuUSI

The NYPD one doesn't have a mouth like the ones Boston Dynamics showcases, but that was two years ago. Maybe it's changed since then.

It doesn't even need a mouth. You can attach a stun probe on the front of it that can shock a junkie with 1,200 volts if a junkie gets too close and doesn't respond to a voice warning. Then it can call the police that an intruder was captured.

China has already militarized these AI dogs by mounting a 7.62mm rifle to it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5gCd3y8JzE

The Chinese army has some AI dogs that can be carried by drones to hot spots here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0mnymzGKs0

China even used AI dogs to patrol public streets during the covid lockdown a year ago here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scSdbCztNnk

China is already selling much cheaper knockoffs of these robodogs for $600.00 on Alibaba, so price isn't really an issue anymore.

[Rocket]

The biggest problem with wind and solar remains energy storage.

You simply CANNOT have something generating variable amounts of power connected to a grid. It's not like gasoline that neatly stores in a tank. Storing wind and solar energy for use in the evening or to charge your car when you get home from work costs exponentially more than the wind and solar generators themselves.

On a small scale, their variability can be absorbed into the system without to much trouble. But as more and bigger installations come online, it becomes a disaster.

Then power companies have to build natural gas plants to try to dampen the effects of wind and solar's variability.

Germany has experienced something like this recently. They are reopening 6.9 gigawatts of coal fired plants and 1.9 gigawatts of lignite power plants to have enough capacity after trying to switch to "green" energy from nuclear, [nuclear being BY FAR the cleanest energy yet devised by man.]

[Henry Whalley]

If the panels are mounted at a 45 degree angle...

You raise many valid concerns.

I was thinking of panels mounted horizontally to form an awning. Also, possibly shaped like aircraft wings so that winds would tend to create lift rather sideways forces.

With regard to cleaning, I wonder if panels can be coated with a ceramic similar to self-cleaning automotive finishes? My car has a ceramic coating -- rain washes mud and dirt away.

With regard to dogs, I'm thinking about using extremely sociable dogs such as Great Pyrenees -- territorial wolf-killers that guard flocks and children. When the dog smells a junky, its collar triggers an alarm to which police respond. I guess it's not unlawful to be use junk. However, an ordinance could make it unlawful for junkies to loiter on city property. Admittedly, getting police to respond is a major hurdle. Perhaps the city should have a Parks and Rec rapid-response force dedicated to keeping parks free of druggies and safe for children and sugar maples?

IDK but I suspect there are creative technological solutions to many of our concerns.

P.S. One benefit of using guardian dogs is that, unlike some LEOs, dogs don't take bribes.