ObamaCare

[Sstashmoo]

Lorax, I think you and yours are obviously blindly following party line or are for anything for nothing, this may not be that at all. If the insurance companies are in this equation, be careful what you ask for.

Seems what is missing from the general discussion, is the mention of the uninsured. What is best for the people. Seems the focus of the argument has been centered around politicians speaking for lobbyists and what industry is going to remain viable. This thing on the face is ill-conceived and headed off the tracks. Again, be careful about what you're supporting.

[Lorax]

I see we're back to general characterizations.

Since when did I say I supported this bill? Is it perfect, no. Will it be sweeping change? No.

Are the lobbyists getting too much, yes.

I'm for single payer, which has been off the table from day one. Truly socialized medicine on the Swedish/Danish model has proven to work best for industrialized nations.

Since we're only taking baby steps with this bill, it would be an improvement over what we have which is corporate/fascist control of health care, how it's administered, and how it's delivered.

It will never go far enough. America is too afraid of change, and is a prisioner to it's own wealth interests, specifically the corporations.

[ccbatson]

1995 pages, then 2035, all legalees....even the people pushing for it admit that it can't be read or comprehended.

Bigger question and important point...WHO WROTE THIS MONSTROSITY?

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "WHO WROTE THIS MONSTROSITY?"

Whoever stand to benefit from it. Insurance companies probably.

[ccbatson]

Shouldn't that be the question we are all demanding an answer to? Has anyone in the media [[even Fox) asked it with any seriousness?

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Shouldn't that be the question we are all demanding an answer to?"

If no one has taken credit for it, we probably wouldn't like the answer to that. It is amazing this novel of a bill just appears out of nowhere and the people pushing it can't even read it. Or probably much less, even understand it. Is this happening?

[maxx]

Conservatives and Big Insurance are terrified that the public will hear the truth about how many European Countries are thriving with single payer health care.

By this time the public should at least be aware that the U.S. is 37th in the world when it comes to healthcare. And we pay more than anyone else for that 37th place health care. Not exactly getting a bang for our bucks.

[maxx]

1995 pages, then 2035, all legalees....even the people pushing for it admit that it can't be read or comprehended.

Bigger question and important point...WHO WROTE THIS MONSTROSITY?

The 2008 Farm Bill was 663 pages long and they've been writing those things for decades.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...ubl246.110.pdf

And the 2002 Farm Bill was considered a monstrosity, but did anyone hear about it?
http://reason.com/archives/2002/05/1...-a-bad-joke-wi
"If it is true that as goes the farm bill, so goes Washington -- and usually that is true -- then Washington is in the mood to spend money, distort markets, and slam the door on its trading partners' toes. The new bill is expensive -- very expensive. According to the Congressional Budget Office's projections, it will cost about 80 percent more than the policy set by the previous farm bill, which was enacted in 1996."

Do they still subsidize mohair growers?

[maxx]

Didn't get the memo? Pelosi is pushing for a vote tomorrow or Saturday...1 week after the release.

It isn't a matter of 1 plan or another right now. It is a matter of stopping this socialist monstrosity. Real solutions will include rolling back government over involvement [[ie Medicare/caid/SCHIP) and unfettering the free market.

As Andrew Sullivan reported, this healthcare bill will give affordable healthcare through a public option to about 5% of the population. Not exactly a socialist takeover. You won't have to worry about being shipped to the gulag next year.

[maxx]

Quote: "WHO WROTE THIS MONSTROSITY?"

Whoever stand to benefit from it. Insurance companies probably.

I hope you were as concerned when the energy industry was writing our energy bills under the shrub's admin.

[Lorax]

I know, where's the moral outrage from the Reich when Dick Cheeseney was holding closed-door meeting with energy companies, when the meetings were mandated to be open and transparent?

Hiding behind "executive privilege" as a way to craft deals with his buddies at Halliburton, Carlyle Group, Bechtel, etc. War profiteering is a crime, so is treason- the fascist Tush crowd need to be jailed.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "I hope you were as concerned when the energy industry was writing our energy bills under the shrub's admin."

Another devout party liner. No I don't like any shady backroom deals, I don't care who is in power. If you want to call it that.

You folks that tout Dem or Repub and argue your position are laughable. It doesn't matter who is in there. All the bullshit we went through until Obama was elected, as he was for "Hope and Change". It's just more of the same. Another mouthpiece for those out for themselves and screw the citizens. The ones with the cash and the connections win. Don't believe it? hide and watch.

[oladub]

The Wall Street Journal has picked a few items out of the 1990 page bill.

Medicare will lose some options. "In addition to reducing future Medicare funding by an estimated $500 billion, the bill fundamentally changes how Medicare pays doctors and hospitals, permitting the government to dictate treatment decisions."

However, it will "direct billions of dollars to numerous inner-city social work and diversity programs with vague standards of accountability."

some specifics-
What the Pelosi Health-Care Bill Really Says

[mrrichard]

It's now called
"Obama Don't Care"
It is obviously a democrat power grab to take more control over another 7 % of the economy
and take away citizens rights.
It will be held Un-Constitutional when it goes to court when the fascists force US citizens
to sign up for federalized socialilzed healthcare or pay a 2,000 fine or go to jail if you dont.

Failed government programs -
Student loan program, Remember when it was private, then the government stepped in to loan money also, then it took it totally over and if you don't pay the fascists back they will basically ruin your life.federal student loans were the only loans in the nation that are largely non-dischargeable in bankruptcy, have no statutes of limitations, and can't be refinanced after consolidation. Nor do they realize that borrowers can have their wages, Social Security, and disability income taken without a court order, for example. Lenders are largely unwilling to negotiate with distressed borrowers, and act in a predatory fashion.

Social Security - 12.4 % tax on all employees is Trillions is unfunded Debt. It is bankrupt.
Medicare - 2.9% tax on your hard earned income. Trillions in unfunded liabilities debt.
Medicaid - Trillions in unfunded liability debt.
Welfare, the great society, failed war on poverty
The great socialist FDR and democrats have been trying to take over you life since 1934 shoving this crap down our throats like a duck being forced fed for foie gras [[liver).

Increase taxes on business, will be passed on to consumer, less innovation in medicine,
less doctors going into patient care, less choice for the consumer. and put the country in massive oppressive debt. Wow, what a great idea.

Fix what is wrong with the system now,
make it work properly without the constant lies to the public, then we will think about the government controlling every aspect of our life from cradle to grave.

[ccbatson]

MrRichard...welcome, please participate more often.

[elganned]

You won't have to worry about being shipped to the gulag next year.

Darn. And I was so looking forward to waving goodbye to Cc...

[ccbatson]

You think the energy policy was bad under GWB? Have you heard about cap and trade? Obama HIMSELF predicts energy prices will "SKYROCKET" as a result of HIS cap and trade plan.

[Papasito]

58% increase in the cost of electricy to power your home, as well as the price of gasoline.

58%

The price applies to Democrats, Republicans, rich and poor.
The price will cause the jobless who are fortunate to own cars to be unable to afford to put gas in them to look for jobs. They will be slaves to the almighty unemployment check. Not to mention that folks with a $200/month electric bill will be paying $316/month.

And during THIS TROUBLING ECONOMIC TIME..
This is clearly economic suicide for our country.

And let's not even get into the GLOBAL GOVERNMENT that is going to be set up under the "Green Bill"
I'm not sure how Americans are going to take the idea that a global government entity will have superiority over Washington DC, hang onto your guns folks, there may be a revolution coming

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "hang onto your guns folks,"

That's what I'm surprised about that hasn't been tried. It's getting like the fuckin twilight zone. Is this even happening?

[rb336]

whoa -- this thread just became the home of every unsubstantiated bulls* talking point of the loony right wing

58% increase in the cost of electricy to power your home, as well as the price of gasoline.

58%

source? oh -- the American Petroleum Institute says so

Failed government programs -
Student loan program, Remember when it was private, then the government stepped in to loan money also, then it took it totally over and if you don't pay the fascists back they will basically ruin your life.federal student loans were the only loans in the nation that are largely non-dischargeable in bankruptcy, have no statutes of limitations, and can't be refinanced after consolidation. Nor do they realize that borrowers can have their wages, Social Security, and disability income taken without a court order, for example. Lenders are largely unwilling to negotiate with distressed borrowers, and act in a predatory fashion.

I remember when it was government-run -- called direct loans. much more efficient. things went to crap AFTER it was farmed out to thieving banks

Social Security - 12.4 % tax on all employees is Trillions is unfunded Debt. It is bankrupt.
Medicare - 2.9% tax on your hard earned income. Trillions in unfunded liabilities debt.
Medicaid - Trillions in unfunded liability debt.
Welfare, the great society, failed war on poverty
The great socialist FDR and democrats have been trying to take over you life since 1934 shoving this crap down our throats like a duck being forced fed for foie gras

gee, not one of your stats even borders on accurate. throw into the mix the fact that the right-wing has purposefully tried to dismantle the project, that the bushies [[like reagan) used them as piggy-banks to fatten their cronies' wallets and hide the REAL amount of debt they were generating...

oh, and foie gras does not come from ducks

[Lorax]

Fix what is wrong with the system now,
make it work properly without the constant lies to the public, then we will think about the government controlling every aspect of our life from cradle to grave.

Great idea- just jump right to a single payer system like we have with Medicare, and no worries.

Time to bury the Rethuglican fascist right thinking in favor of modern European style socialized democracy.

[Detroitej72]

I see the lunatic fringe right has been banging away on their keyboards.

[ccbatson]

The same Medicare that is poised to bring down the economy with its' unfunded liabilities....great idea.

[elganned]

Um, so let me understand this...

Medicare is going to bring the economy down through "unfunded liabilities". But since Medicare is just the vehicle for paying healthcare costs, one presumes that if Medicare wasn't there those costs would be shouldered by the individual taxpayer.

But the liabilities wouldn't disappear with Medicare. They'd still be liabilites, and still unfunded [[whatever that means). Unfunded by private taxpayers, but still unfunded.

So that being the case, the liabilities will still "bring the economy down", whether paid by Medicare or by private pay.

Which leads us to the inevitable conclusion that it will by the cost of healthcare which will bring the system down, not who pays for it.

Like I've said all along: Death panels. It's the only affordable option.

[ccbatson]

Nope...a free enterprise health care system, just like any business, funds itself as it goes...it doesn't have the option of accruing unsustainable unfunded debt and/or printing money at will.


You buy a car, you pay for it...over time, or up front.