Death of Public Transportation

[TIMT]

Not to interfere with the arguments here...

Circa 1979-1981, I was white kid in my early teens living in Birmingham. Often with a friend from school, sometimes on my own, I'd take a bus to get to the Birmingham rail station and then take the train to downtown Detroit [[I recall the station was maybe 1/3 mile E of the Renaissance Center). We'd walk to the RenCen and wander around inside exploring. In this era, there was a small video arcade we'd hang-out at for a while, then eat lunch at the Olga's Kitchen, followed by either more wandering or seeing a movie at the theaters there, before reversing the route to come back home by around 5PM.

45 years later, in retrospect, taking public transportation about 20 miles [[about 5 on a bus, 15 on the train) each-way and going into King Coleman's Detroit as a 12/13 year old boy is amazing, but I know many of you can relate.

As a teenager living in Birmingham, I played with radio receivers, and would listen to the Detroit Police Tactical Service Section Bluebird units that would have an under-cover officer riding around on a SEMTA bus in Detroit, with a marked or unmarked DPD TSS cruiser following-along. If the undercover officer witnessed criminal acts on the bus, he/she would radio to the cruiser, they bus would be stopped, and they'd either arrest the offender or at-least boot him or her from the bus. The Bluebird program was disbanded at some point, I think in the 1990s.

Circa late 1990s, I lived in Riverfront Towers in Downtown Detroit and enjoyed having a monthly pass for the Detroit Monorail, which I could access via the Joe Louis Arena station, just a 3 minute walk from my apartment door, to get to Greektown, the RenCen, Cobo Hall...

I also had a friend who was a D-DOT bus driver -- or I should say a recently retired D-DOT driver, since he was shot by a passenger. He had a lot of fascinating stores to tell, mostly sad or scary, of things that occurred on his bus [[he was a driver for around 10 years) as-well as some disgusting policies D-DOT had regarding incidents on the buses [[basically summed-up as -- keep moving, so the buses stay on schedule).

I'm in Las Vegas now, and while Clark County's public transportation system is funded a lot by various taxes imposed on tourists, it's otherwise the same basic reality that pretty much every other urban area mass transportation system faces -- the perception, usually based on reality -- that it's not safe, therefore anyone & everyone who has reached a status in-life where they can afford alternate transportation will have & use it, and it's mostly the dregs of society that take the bus. Here in Las Vegas, I can listen-in on the Regional Transportation Corp public transportation buses, and other than the 'Deuce' bus which covers the Las Vegas Strip, the negative stereotype is reinforced [[confirmed?) on a daily basis -- buses having to dump off all passengers at the next bus stop & return to the yard because of a "bio" [[various bodily fluids), crazy passengers being disruptive/assaulting others, incoherent passengers, passengers wanting the driver to contact EMS because the passenger has an old wound, etc. This is all in-addition to the expected inconveniences of having to take multiple bus routes to get to your final destination and the time.

God bless the decent, hard-working people that are taking public transportation, especially in areas where parking a car isn't a hassle, but the reality for most of the USA is that if you're in your 20s and not able to own & operate some sort of car [[ability to get a drivers license, pay auto registration & insurance plus gas & upkeep), you it's likely mostly due to your own poor decisions and not surprising that if given the option, much of society would prefer to not be confined near you on a bus.

[K-slice]

Bottom line on transit, if you want to 1. sell it to the masses, and 2. have it succeed long term, it needs to be comparable or better than driving your personal car for those who can easily access it.

Whenever transit is on the ballot, the boosters shove a bunch of poor, handicapped, and elderly people in our faces and say "vote yes for their sake". That's a losing proposition in the US.

You have to come up with a proposal that will make a good portion of the people who COULD drive their personal car, say "ya know what, if they built that I WOULD use it myself!"

Once you do that you'll have a winner and not much else will matter besides executing on the vision sold. All other concerns go out the window when you show people it will benefit them personally.

[TIMT]

Bottom line on transit, if you want to 1. sell it to the masses, and 2. have it succeed long term, it needs to be comparable or better than driving your personal car for those who can easily access it.

Great points, reminds me of something surprising about the 'Caltrain' Amtrak-operated rail line that provides service along "The Peninsula" in the San Francisco Bay area, running between San Jose & San Francisco, with about 10 stops in-between. They allow riders to consume alcohol [['BYOB') aboard! It was popular when I lived in the area on Fridays for workers to have a little party on their commute home.

But it's probably important to note the rider demographics -- didn't seem to be any problems on Caltrain, but the BART subway system had and has a lot of crime & quality of life issues in-comparison, beyond what could be expected due to ridership numbers.

It's hard to have a pleasant time being on a bus or subway, etc. when a sad or scary person is presenting themselves to our senses, & is surely one reason why many of us pay/waste $$$ to be sequestered in our own traveling cocoon.

[canuck]

Great points, reminds me of something surprising about the 'Caltrain' Amtrak-operated rail line that provides service along "The Peninsula" in the San Francisco Bay area, running between San Jose & San Francisco, with about 10 stops in-between. They allow riders to consume alcohol [['BYOB') aboard! It was popular when I lived in the area on Fridays for workers to have a little party on their commute home.

But it's probably important to note the rider demographics -- didn't seem to be any problems on Caltrain, but the BART subway system had and has a lot of crime & quality of life issues in-comparison, beyond what could be expected due to ridership numbers.

It's hard to have a pleasant time being on a bus or subway, etc. when a sad or scary person is presenting themselves to our senses, & is surely one reason why many of us pay/waste $$$ to be sequestered in our own traveling cocoon.

As much as I enjoy my drink, I can't think of a more inane proposal than the promotion of BYOB consumption on public transit.

[Richard]

As much as I enjoy my drink, I can't think of a more inane proposal than the promotion of BYOB consumption on public transit.

I have enjoyed taking Amtrak cross country and experienced a few that had a few to many along the way and that was with Amtrak selling the drinks.

Kinda with the same results of somebody on a airplane that cannot handle their liquor.

I agree whoever thought of that one needs to put their own bottle down.

[kuuma]

As much as I enjoy my drink, I can't think of a more inane proposal than the promotion of BYOB consumption on public transit.

think of it this way too: you can ride home safely when you're already tipsy [or blazin]. the peace of mind that you got a $2 ride home at any point you need it absolutely translates to more patronage at bars/venues. when i lived in a transit city it's meant the difference countless times when deciding whether to leave the function at 11 or keep dancing til the later hours – cuz even detroit's techno clubs roll til 4am. good luck getting an uber at that hour for under $50. it's great for the 24 hour economy. not to mention transit absolutely cuts down on impaired driving fatalities.

so yeah it might sound degenerate to emphasize party safety/convenience when the other transit pros focus on people with disabilities, elderly mobility, travel access for lower income folks, reduced noise and exhaust pollution, climate futureproofing, etc, but considering the party and culture enjoyers is absolutely a valid angle.

[Ray1936]

"The Bluebird program was disbanded at some point, I think in the 1990s."
Yeah, it was, as some thought picking on a criminal element was racial.

[Zacha341]

Drunks on public transpo! What can go wrong?

As much as I enjoy my drink, I can't think of a more inane proposal than the promotion of BYOB consumption on public transit.

[stasu1213]

"The Bluebird program was disbanded at some point, I think in the 1990s."
Yeah, it was, as some thought picking on a criminal element was racial.

Some suburban areas probably don't want mass transit coming into their areas from Detroit for fear of it making their communities more easily accessible to the criminal element coming from Detroit. I don't think that is racial at all.

[Henry Whalley]

I don't think that is racial at all.

I don't think that anyone regardless of race likes the criminal element, except for those who like Maralago Mussolini, e.g., 80% of Republican voters.

[Rocket]

I don't think that anyone regardless of race likes the criminal element, except for those who like Maralago Mussolini, e.g., 80% of Republican voters.

Wait what? Thanks for bringing your brainwashing into this.

[kuuma]

Some suburban areas probably don't want mass transit coming into their areas from Detroit for fear of it making their communities more easily accessible to the criminal element coming from Detroit. I don't think that is racial at all.

if someone is worried that a crime-doer is gonna hop on a light rail, ride 30 minutes up grand river to some strip mall in farmington hills, "do a crime", then hop back on the rail to ride home... i have some bad news for them on the subject of racism.

[Burnsie]

Sooo, people should be able to live and work anywhere they want, and it's up to the rest of us to pay for their transportation?

Why is it that the solution to everyone's problems always have to be paid for by others, via government programs that triple the cost?

Using that logic, how about we rip up all the residential streets in your city or county except yours? After all, your taxes are paying for their upkeep but only other people are using them to get to work, not you.

[Zacha341]

^ Yep. When I started my career I worked mostly in the suburbs [requiring a commute albeit under 20-25 minutes mostly]. That's where the majority of the work in my field was. Was I not to work? So as to pay taxes and contribute.

[Zacha341]

Precisely!

Bottom line on transit, if you want to 1. sell it to the masses, and 2. have it succeed long term, it needs to be comparable or better than driving your personal car for those who can easily access it.

[Henry Whalley]

Wait what? Thanks for bringing your brainwashing into this.

Russia, if you're listening, The GOP likes the criminal element.

[Richard]

My MIL was born and raised her kids in south Philly,now 70 she does not drive,never owned a car or even had a drivers license,she worked and raised her kids solely with public transportation.

If you want to save the planet what makes more sense,an energy efficient transit system moving 500 people,or 500 people driving EVs around and the roads they run on while destroying the planet to create those.

We cannot do the obvious,it has to involve trillions in order to make it sound good.

These days you might be able to get away with installing a street car system and just say it identifies as a Tesla and people would be tripping over themselves to invest,it would not have to make sense,or just tell people you are going to revolutionize the transportation industry,with a street car.

It’s kinda funny,Georgia is dumping 200 rail cars from its system as they renew into the sea in order to create an artificial reef.

Another city has ordered 100 brand new retro 1940s street cars in order to add to their system.

Some get it some, do not,the way it has always been,if one is advocating for public transit options,you cannot treat your opposers as the enemy it’s kinda on you to help them understand the benefits.

Interesting enough I just learned today that the horse head used in The Godfather movie used to convince the movie mogul to allow others into the fold,was real,they got it from the glue factory,the blood was fake but it seemed like a pretty convincing tool,in the movie.

[Zacha341]

Soley the GOP? Great then all our problems are solved!

Russia, if you're listening, The GOP likes the criminal element.

[Honky Tonk]

Russia, if you're listening, The GOP likes the criminal element.

I guess that's why in a libtard city like Detroit, cops can't go into a gas station without getting attacked.

[Henry Whalley]

I guess that's why in a libtard city like Detroit, cops can't go into a gas station without getting attacked.

You're missing the point. The good people of the city abhor Detroit's criminal element.

[Rocket]

Using that logic, how about we rip up all the residential streets in your city or county except yours? After all, your taxes are paying for their upkeep but only other people are using them to get to work, not you.

I don't believe your analogy matches this situation.

The people using the streets [driving vehicles] all have to pay road tax, both with their license plate tabs as well as through the taxes on the fuel they buy. So all of us car drivers pay our share, roughly.


That's entirely different than me paying 100% of my share, PLUS 88% of your share, and you [if you were a bus rider] paying just 12% of yours, all while complaining that it's not good enough, and that you think I should have to pay even more.

[As of 2007, fares from SMART Bus riders only paid for about 12% of the costs for the service they use. House bill 4185 was actually proposed in 2009 to mandate that they pay a minimum of 20%.]

[Rocket]

Russia, if you're listening, The GOP likes the criminal element.

Yep, Rachael Maddow's job is complete. She has you believing the exact opposite of the truth. She's REALLY good at her job.

[Honky Tonk]

You're missing the point. The good people of the city abhor Detroit's criminal element.

Maybe it's your presentation.

[Richard]

I don't believe your analogy matches this situation.

The people using the streets [driving vehicles] all have to pay road tax, both with their license plate tabs as well as through the taxes on the fuel they buy. So all of us car drivers pay our share, roughly.


That's entirely different than me paying 100% of my share, PLUS 88% of your share, and you [if you were a bus rider] paying just 12% of yours, all while complaining that it's not good enough, and that you think I should have to pay even more.

[As of 2007, fares from SMART Bus riders only paid for about 12% of the costs for the service they use. House bill 4185 was actually proposed in 2009 to mandate that they pay a minimum of 20%.]

Two different things

Private transportation is designed by individuals for profit

Public transportation is designed by government in order to move the masses cheaply and not intended to be for profit.

The government is not involved in anything that is designed with the intent for profit because it would be then considered in competition with the private sector.By law the government cannot compete with the public sector for profit or any other reason.

You cannot really use the argument that those who use public transportation should be paying their fair share because by design there is no intent to place a number on fair share.

You cannot tell the one that uses it 2 times a week they have to pay a higher rate verses the one that uses it 5 days a week.

The rail running in Florida that is connecting all of the major cities with stops inbetween and the system in place that moves Orlando metro is as a majority privately funded,it can be done because it is being done.

For what the Detroit region is paying FOR 1 BRIDGE Florida has implemented a system that covers the entire state and metro Orlando system,that has the same land mass as Detroit/Warren/Dearborn but with 1 million less population to support it.

Once again as a majority privately funded.

Even if you cut the state of Florida in 1/2 that puts public transportation within reach of over 10 million residents,equal to the population of the entire state of Michigan.

The last mile in Orlando metro serving over 3 million is completed by buses,park n ride,ride share services and that includes over 6 cities connected within that metro and 5 more beyond and that does not even include the intrastate rail structure.

It also gives people freedom of movement because you can live in Daytona beach and work in downtown Orlando there are actually more with means utilizing the system then the “poor and impoverished”

Amtrac run that goes into DC is packed,sometimes standing room only,because most of the workers going into DC use it as a commuter rail and it is all walks of life.

There is a lot of stigma of those who use public transportation because of when the cities emptied out and the ones that were left were the poor and impoverished it’s not the 60s and 70s anymore.

That does not even begin to delve into the trickle down benefits of implementing a properly functioning mass transit system.

Thats why the push to move the masses into planet killing EVs verses mass transportation,because there is more profit in it but it comes at a higher cost to the private individual,but there is only a 3% difference in cost factor when it comes to private verses public transportation but in public you are moving 50 people over a space in time verses 1 which is way more efficient.

When they compare private verses public,all forms of public transportation is included,air,rail,ride share,buses,anything that moves somebody outside of their private vehicle.

In theory when it comes to private transportation which also includes the costs of the supporting infrastructure,even down to a traffic light and what it costs somebody driving a F250 is not paying their fair share when compared to an eco box,even a 5000# Tesla is not paying their fair share when compared to Hyundai because the weight factor and the wear and tear on the supporting infrastructure has to be factored in.

You also cannot look at it as a private individual because in theory taxpayers spent 500 million to 1 billion for that freeway so as an individual I can drive my car down it.

If you take the cost of that freeway to build and maintain verses how many cars drive on it how exactly do you figure what is considered a fair share that I need to pay in order to drive on that stretch of freeway.

But that has already been determined because when I use the toll road,which is privately owned,it cost me $1 to go 5 miles,it would cost me $2.50 to go the same distance by bus.

That privately owned toll road is not offset by taxes or gas tax but they have determined that as an individual on that road my fair share to use it is that $1 and they are in it for profit.

Thats what people never factor in,if you removed just 10% of the vehicle traffic from the roadways,the savings in infrastructure maintenance costs are reduced 10% due to wear n tear so public transportation actually drives down the cost of private transportation let alone you have also reduced the amount of people using the roads that should never be on them in the first place,which translates into less stress,what is the price of that?

The objective between public and private transportation is to create a zero sum game where it is balanced and then the only factor left is personal choice.

The reality is,if everyone,including myself,was paying their fair share to utilize anything that involves public infrastructure including the roads we would not be trillions of dollars behind in repairs,so nobody has actually been paying their fair share for decades.

This year alone the state of Michigan received $2.4 billion from the federal government in infrastructure funding.

So at the end of the day if I drive on section 8 roads in Michigan it is no different then if I ride a section 8 bus,that $2.4 billion alone where Michigan residents are not paying their fair share,it does not matter if you ride the bus or not.

It’s no different then any other state,nobody really pays their fair share,so it is not even a talking point.

If you guys really wanted to save the planet and make the little Swedish girl happy and stop destroying the childhoods of future generations,you would quit pissing around and implement a viable public transportation system.

Otherwise it makes all these politicians running around whining about saving the planet and lowering emissions look like a bunch of advocates for the very thing they oppose. Thier lips are moving but nothings coming out but a bunch of fake outrage which makes their cause pointless and only designed to keep people distracted from the real issues so they can spend their time in office without actually doing anything but looking for ways to collect government cheese in order to put taxpayers deeper into debt while coming up with zero actual solutions.

Your local and state public officials do not want public transportation because private transportation and everything that surrounds it is what fuels your economy.

It does not require any special skills as a politician to maintain status quo and a part of being a politician is having the ability to lie to the public and pretend that they care about you and are operating in your best interests.

Not to get into politics but look at the numbers.

Michigan a D state with a D governor with a D president

Received $2.5 B in infrastructure with an additional $2.4 B in future funding for public transportation,roads,bridges,ports and airports.

Florida a R state with a R governor and a D President

Received $13 B with an additional $2.6 B over 5 years to improve public transportation alone excluding,roads,bridges,ports and airports.

Figure that one out.

Not for nothing but it gives the appearance of those you support are looking out more for those that you do not support,then you.

[expatriate]

This is a great argument against those who whine that the US is just too big and spread out to support viable public transit.

https://youtu.be/REni8Oi1QJQ