Can Greektown be saved?

[401don]

Here is the masterplan for those interested: https://detroitmi.gov/sites/detroitm...alDocument.pdf

It's good to see some effort is being put into reviving it but it's 4 years later, nothing has been done, likely affected by the pandemic, and the area has continued to decline.

[softailrider]

Solutions for Greektown won't be easy. Royce has identified the two areas of focus that might lead to improvement: increased residential population and crime/safety. Unfortunately, in the past 5 years the area has become a warm weather evening destination for the age 16-35 crowd that is not really interested in quiet socializing with a few of their friends. Instead this crowd tends to form large, loud groups that too often seek out conflict. It's a situation not conducive to a healthy mixed use neighborhood economy. Folks who want to safely spend some money tend to stay away. How does a community discourage unruly non-spending citizens from using its neighborhood as a meet-up while attracting folks who just want to casually shop, eat and drink? Increasing law enforcement presence may not be the solution. People aren't necessarily attracted to an area "crawling" with cops. More apartments in the neighborhood might help reduce this problem by adding a "local" presence to the street scene. Then again maybe not. It will be years before a meaningful increase of units could take place. A difficult problem definitely exists though. Hopefully the stakeholders can find some solutions.

All of the above seems to be very true. Weekend Summer nights are not family friendly or senior citizen friendly. I don't think of myself as an old fuddy duddy but it's too rowdy for me. It's okay if you want to park in the garage and go into the casino but walking around there seems problematic.

[Henry Whalley]

Can Greektown Be Saved?
No, Greektown doesn't exist except in memory.
Twenty-five years ago, the question would have been meaningful.
Someone made an offer that Detroit couldn't refuse. IIRC Archer was the mayor.

[Margaret's boy]

Windsor's Little Italy has done a great job adding mixed residential. It looks more like a functioning downtown than Ouellette Ave.

[401don]

Can Greektown Be Saved?
No, Greektown doesn't exist except in memory.
Twenty-five years ago, the question would have been meaningful.
Someone made an offer that Detroit couldn't refuse. IIRC Archer was the mayor.

When I posed the question, I didn't mean returning it to a "Greek"town. It's pretty obvious that's gone. If you looked at Woodward avenue 25 years ago, you would say it was gone as a retail strip. It was almost 100% vacant. In far worse shape than Greektown is currently. Yet, while still struggling, it has been revived as a viable commercial strip. My question is, can the same be done with Greektown?

[Henry Whalley]

Windsor's Little Italy has done a great job adding mixed residential. It looks more like a functioning downtown than Ouellette Ave.

Didn't the casino impact Ouellette negatively?

[jcole]

I agree, Henry; it hasn't been "Greektown" in years. It kills me when people say "Oh, some of the original restaurants are still there, and then cite "Pegasus". There is so little of the original there that it's just another failing tourist trap and has been since New Hellas and Grecian Gardens have gone. The charm that was sightly seedy restaurants, bakeries, bars and old men playing cards in coffee shops or the back rooms of Grecian Gardens is so long gone that sometimes I think I'm the only one who remembers it

Can Greektown Be Saved?
No, Greektown doesn't exist except in memory.
Twenty-five years ago, the question would have been meaningful.
Someone made an offer that Detroit couldn't refuse. IIRC Archer was the mayor.

[313WX]

A start [[and extremely low-hanging fruit) would be to get rid of that ridiculous skywalk between the hotel/parking garage and casino.

When you give people the option to avoid walking outside in a cold, snowy, dangerous city like Detroit, what do you think most of them are going to do?

[jcole]

What that will accomplish is more old folks going to MGM or Motor City where they don't have to walk in the cold snowy weather and bring even less people to the area.

A start [[and extremely low-hanging fruit) would be to get rid of thay ridiculous skywalk between the hotel/parking garage and casino.

When you give people the option to avoid walking outside in a cold, snowy, dangerous city like Detroit, what do you think most of them are going to do?

[401don]

I agree, Henry; it hasn't been "Greektown" in years. It kills me when people say "Oh, some of the original restaurants are still there, and then cite "Pegasus". There is so little of the original there that it's just another failing tourist trap and has been since New Hellas and Grecian Gardens have gone. The charm that was sightly seedy restaurants, bakeries, bars and old men playing cards in coffee shops or the back rooms of Grecian Gardens is so long gone that sometimes I think I'm the only one who remembers it

Henry never read or understood my original post. I will reword it. Can the Monroe strip area, formerly known as Greektown, and while clearly no longer a Greek town, but still called by that name by many, be revived into a viable retail/entertainment/dining/tourist area? If so, what type of venues might help in that regard.

[313WX]

What that will accomplish is more old folks going to MGM or Motor City where they don't have to walk in the cold snowy weather and bring even less people to the area.

The lack of a skywalk before didn't stop them from going to the casino...

[ABetterDetroit]

The lack of a skywalk before didn't stop them from going to the casino...

What is the point of debating the absurd? The skywalk that already exist to keep the patrons out of the elements of the casino and the casino owned hotel/parking deck isn’t going anywhere. Removal would be contrary to the business interest of the casino and hotel.

Your idea to get rid of the skywalk is not “low hanging fruit.” The fact is it will never ever happen until either one or both of the casino and hotel is out of business and demolished.

[Ray1936]

"It hasn't been "Greektown" in years."

No barbut games any more? [[Look it up.)

[jcole]

Well, one thing that will have to be done is to get rid of the late night violence on that strip at night. I really don't see it being as vibrant as it was when Trappers Alley was there or when the casino was first built and people were going there and to the still remaining Greek restaurants and bars. I haven't been there in years but what I know of it I would say it's going to take a large infusion of money, a unique idea for populating the area with some kind of cohesive stores and restaurants; something that will draw people other than those who just want to gamble and grab some food. Something like Midtown with some kitschy gift and clothing stores. But the old school people from the burbs, the ones who used to go there when it WAS Greektown will never stop looking for Stella and some shish kabob

Henry never read or understood my original post. I will reword it. Can the Monroe strip area, formerly known as Greektown, and while clearly no longer a Greek town, but still called by that name by many, be revived into a viable retail/entertainment/dining/tourist area? If so, what type of venues might help in that regard.

[jcole]

Yes, but now that they are used to it, they won't want to give it up especially in the cold and rainy weather. Also, there is an element of safety in using that walkway at night especially if people think you won something while you were in there.

The lack of a skywalk before didn't stop them from going to the casino...

[313WX]

What is the point of debating the absurd? .

It's not absurd at all.

A huge part of the issue is a lot of the foot traffic businesses in Greektown relied on was lost when the skywalk was constructed. That has to be factored into the conversation, like it or not.

And it's low-hanging fruit in the sense that it would be a quick and relatively inexpensive fix with an immediate positive impact, not whether it's in the best business interest of the casino.

Frankly, everything else in this thread being propsed to "save Greektown" is far more delusional.

[313WX]

Yes, but now that they are used to it, they won't want to give it up especially in the cold and rainy weather. Also, there is an element of safety in using that walkway at night especially if people think you won something while you were in there.

Eh, the great thing about human beings is that we're really good at adapting to change when forced.

People who really want to continue going to Greektown [[as it has other pros going for it over the other casinos besides just the Skywalk) would get used to it if it goes away.

[K-slice]

It's not absurd at all.

A huge part of the issue is a lot of the foot traffic businesses in Greektown relied on was lost when the skywalk was constructed. That has to be factored into the conversation, like it or not.

And it's low-hanging fruit in the sense that it would be a quick and relatively inexpensive fix with an immediate positive impact, not whether it's in the best business interest of the casino.

Frankly, everything else in this thread being propsed to "save Greektown" is far more delusional.

I agree, this would be an easy thing to "force" people into Monroe street where they would pass by and potentially patronize, the businesses on it.

The casino would have to WANT that to happen though, and as it stand they only want people to stay contained within their buildings for as long as possible. If someone is walking on Monroe, going to Astoria or Golden Fleece, that means they're not gambling at the casino, which is adverse to the casinos interest.

To put it simply, the casino and it's management do not want a vibrant Monroe street, as that would only serve to pull business out their door. Solve that problem and you fix "Greektown".

[Zacha341]

^ Yep, I agree. There are too many other options for Greek or Mediterranean in southeast Michigan.

[401don]

I agree, this would be an easy thing to "force" people into Monroe street where they would pass by and potentially patronize, the businesses on it.

The casino would have to WANT that to happen though, and as it stand they only want people to stay contained within their buildings for as long as possible. If someone is walking on Monroe, going to Astoria or Golden Fleece, that means they're not gambling at the casino, which is adverse to the casinos interest.

To put it simply, the casino and it's management do not want a vibrant Monroe street, as that would only serve to pull business out their door. Solve that problem and you fix "Greektown".

Maybe the casino needs to find a way to make the strip attractive enough to draw those who might prefer a unique dining/shopping experience before or after a visit to the casino as a way to compete with the other two casinos. Ideally the strip becomes attractive enough to draw people to the casino who wouldn't otherwise go there and they complement each other. Gilbert tried this a little with some comps to the restaurants but never opened up the casino to the street as promised. The Greektown casino trails the others in revenue badly so clearly the serious gamblers prefer the quick in/out casinos. Greektown tends to get those who drop in and play low end slots for a half hour before and after attending games. Again, not sure what the answer is.

[ABetterDetroit]

I agree, this would be an easy thing to "force" people into Monroe street where they would pass by and potentially patronize, the businesses on it.

The casino would have to WANT that to happen though, and as it stand they only want people to stay contained within their buildings for as long as possible. If someone is walking on Monroe, going to Astoria or Golden Fleece, that means they're not gambling at the casino, which is adverse to the casinos interest.

To put it simply, the casino and it's management do not want a vibrant Monroe street, as that would only serve to pull business out their door. Solve that problem and you fix "Greektown".

Nope, this idea is still completely absurd. The Greek Town casino contributes significantly to the coffers of Detroit. Adversely effecting their business model is not in the financial best interest for the city even if it would benefit the store fronts on Monroe street. The city would be putting dollars of income at risk for the hope it would come back as pennies. No chance it is ever going to happen and there is nothing ‘low hanging’ about the city using its power to deconstruct that skywalk. Their legal fees alone would be immense if they seriously considered that biting the hand that feeds them was a good idea.

Night club areas are popular in vibrant cities and always are unpopular with the people who don’t use them. Like it or not Greektown is Detroits nightclub district. That is its immediate future. Someday it will change, change is a constant. Mostly old people have big problems with that simple fact

[gopher]

I drove through last night and was surprised to see 5 guys open and the old Starbucks open too. Not sure if it’s a Starbucks or something else..

[313WX]

even if it would benefit the store fronts on Monroe street.

In case you're unclear about the intent of this thread, its purpose was to speculate about ways to bring more life to the ancillary businesses and strips surrounding the casino.

And yes, unfortunately, whatever *REALISTIC* solution there is to rejunvenate "Greektown" will have conflicting interests with that of the casino and its owners.

But again, the casino's well-being is not the central theme of this thread.

[ABetterDetroit]

In case you're unclear about the intent of this thread, its purpose was to speculate about ways to bring more life to the ancillary businesses and strips surrounding the casino.

And yes, unfortunately, whatever *REALISTIC* solution there is to rejunvenate "Greektown" will have conflicting interests with that of the casino and its owners.

But again, the casino's well-being is not the central theme of this thread.

No worries. We obviously have different definitions of ‘Low hanging fruit’ that’s all. Mine includes ‘REALISTIC’ to qualify as in like being relatively easy to accomplish or pick off.

[Henry Whalley]

Greektown restaurants were the only places in metro Detroit where one could find great spinach-feta pie or moussaka. AFAIK no other restaurants offer these dishes that are even close to edible. Sad :[