Lack of Riverfront Development Just Due to Lack of Money?

[ShadowSoarer]

There were plans from the Detroit Zoo to build an aquarium on the former Ford Auditorium site back in 2018. I believe that the mayor turned down the idea because he believe that site "could be put to better use". I believe he also said that he was concerned about families having to park and cross Jefferson which doesn't make sense since there was a parking garage next to the site or they could've integrated parking into the aquarium site. Also if they didn't like that site they could've moved it somewhere else along the riverfront.

In addition now that the Detroit Grand Prix is moving to Downtown it is likely that they'll use the GM surface lots as a staging area which means that area will likely not see development for some time.

[southen]

Everything that we have learned regarding successful public spaces has been that if you remove the automobile they are in fact more pedestrian friendly and you are that much more likely to have a successful and full public space. The only problem with the riverfront right now is that there aren't enough nodes of interest for people to stop and congregate. Valade Park has become one such node and very successful but other spots along the riverwalk will need density and retail to make it more appealing, not more roads closer to the water's edge.

[Lapooty]

^^^
That's definitely whats missing. There needs to be a complete wall of 2-3 story shops and restaurants on the north side of Atwater. People need places to hang out and spend money that aren't up on Franklin street. Currently the riverwalk just acts like a nice strip for pedestrian transportation and theres nowhere to stop for an extended amount of time aside from Valade.

I would also go a step further and make Atwater a one way from Rivard to Jos Campau, in order to encourage vehicles to use Franklin. With that I'd widen the sidewalk on both sides and make the street more bicycle/pedestrian friendly.

[royce]

Everything that we have learned regarding successful public spaces has been that if you remove the automobile they are in fact more pedestrian friendly and you are that much more likely to have a successful and full public space. The only problem with the riverfront right now is that there aren't enough nodes of interest for people to stop and congregate. Valade Park has become one such node and very successful but other spots along the riverwalk will need density and retail to make it more appealing, not more roads closer to the water's edge.

I agree with you on the nodes of activity needed to make the riverfront more vibrant. My issue is that you've got to get the people to the public space and to get them there you need a car. How many people would visit Belle Isle if the bridge was closed to car traffic? How many people would go to Campus Martius Park if the major roads leading to it were cut off to car traffic a block or two from the park. Campus Martius Park was designed to make the area more pedestrian friendly and it did, but they still have roads surrounding it. The difference now is that the roads are narrower and easier to cross. So I don't see roads for car traffic as a necessary evil to pedestrian friendly public spaces. When I suggest adding roads south of Atwater, in some places, that's to get people to those areas to discover what public spaces and amenities are available. Opening Adair Street for car traffic to the RiverWalk would do wonders to creating pedestrian activity in that area.

[stasu1213]

There need to be the type of retail lining the north side of Atwater that will compliment the Riverwalk. More fitness stores such as Dunham's, Dick's or or smaller stores thar sell bicycles such as Bikes blades and boards, Trek, or American fitness.

[masterblaster]

The Stone Soap Buildings are being demolished right now. The development plan fell through and the city, without any forewarning, is razing it now.

The original plans announced in 2017 were a dream:

https://www.dbusiness.com/daily-news...7m-renovation/

The project will also include 13,000 square feet of retail space and permanent performance space for Shakespeare in Detroit, a locally based company that performs Shakespeare’s works across the city. The commercial space will be built in a European style, with an open market concept for food and beverage space. The development will also include Detroit’s first parking carousel in an enclosed space, as well as a pool, a gym, rooftop gardens, storage, and bike stations for residents.

[stasu1213]

This would had made great condos with parking underneath.

[royce]

Didn't see this before creating new thread. Lowell will have to do his magic.

[stasu1213]

Expatriate and Masterblaster, one of the things I like about Windsor's Riverside Drive is the fact that you can see the Detroit River and Detroit's skyline and that it's not far from the river's edge. The closest we come to that along our side of the river is on Atwater in front of the GM RenCen [[approximately two city blocks?). Nowhere else along our side of the river can you get that close to the river's edge while still in a car. When I drive pass and see all of the people along the RiverWalk, it makes me want to get out and take part in the activities. And because I see a number of people in the area, I feel safe in the area.

Now, if I was driving along Atwater just west of Rivard, I would have a difficult time seeing that activity along the RiverWalk in that area. If it was on a day that was cold or when the sun was just rising, I might not get out of my car because I couldn't see people and I might not feel safe getting out of my car as a result. This is what I was trying to explain in my last post about if they cut off car traffic to the western end of Belle Isle. Because the outer road on Belle Isle is close to the sidewalk and the river's edge, you can see the area and assess if it' safe or not. If you don't see a lot of cars or people, you might not feel safe getting out of your car to walk in the area, picnic in the area, or just lounge in the area.

If I designed a city's riverfront, I would put a road close to the river's edge for the reasons I have stated. In addition, on the other side of that road, I would have homes, apartments, shops and restaurants. That's my vision. Everyone has their own.

There are also some parts of Jefferson where you could see the River from when driving North or Southbound on it. Detroit's mistake over the past 100 plus years was allowing factories and small industries to build and operate along the riverfront. Starting in the 1920s apartment homes started being built along the riverfront while Jefferson Avenue was being expanded and lengthened. Detroit continued this pattern well into the late 60s early 70s when former Mayor Gribbs envisioned a plan to redevelop the riverfront from bridge to bridge

[stasu1213]

I know that you and Royce really dislike Chene Park [Aretha Franklin Amphitheater], but it was one of the 3 riverfront parks that originated the riverfront restoration. When they first built it, it was with a 3,000 seat amphitheater... and then later it was ripped up and enlarged to a 5,000 seat amphitheater. The nautical tie-in of boats harbored in the river during concerts is kinda cool.

Now for the negatives. I totally agree that the sea of parking north of the park sucks!! Also the Riverwalk "wrap around". And with Live Nations doing the programming, I can imagine that it is annoying for nearby apartment dwellers to enjoy an evening on their balconies [or leaving their windows open].

I don't know how to fix the parking issue, but it would be nice if the Symphony moved their summer outdoor program to the Amphitheater from out at Meadowbrook. I think more soothing music would help fix the "noise" issues.

However, many millions have been spent building the 3,000 seat amphitheater, and many more millions were spent on the replacement 5,000 seat amphitheater. Destroying all of that AGAIN, is a big waste of scarce city dollars.

But yeah... the music at that amphitheater is not exactly head banging good fun for the nearby residents.

There were plans to have different type of venues at rhe Areatha Franklin Amphitheater. DSO as well as other genre of acts auch as Pop, Rick, Jazz, and Opera were to be part of the lineups performing at the Areatha. The newly female director at that time[[ circa 2013) stated that she didn't want just one genre of acts performing at Chene Park but have Chene Park Amphitheater to take it's que from Freedom Hill when it come to different genre of music being performed there. However this was the last year of the Bing administration and before Council by District to came into being. Now the same acts that had always been performing there 30 plus years are still performing their with the exception of big acts such as Diane Ross performing their a few years ago

[TIMT]

My belief: Since much of Detroit's riverfront land was at one time, industrial, any seller of the property seems obligated to reveal environmental contamination and any buyer of the property then seems to accept liability for it and the cost of full environmental cleanup if they construct or otherwise disturb the soil. While certainly there are some pockets of relatively virgin ground and structures built atop brownfields before HAZMAT was a thing, I think it's HAZMAT and a fiduciary duty to report it/legal duty to remediate it that's stopping a lot of development/re-development on & near the shoreline.

[royce]

^Hazmat might be the case for the lack of development, TIMT, but the the question I want answered is, "How deep down in the soil do you have to go to clean a former industrial site on the Detroit River?" They supposedly cleaned up the Uniroyal Plant site, right? So, what's the delay in getting a residential development put on it? The DNR now owns the Bing site and a site east of the parking lot at Rivard/Cullen Plaza. Someone agreed that it wasn't a good idea to put residential in those spots, yet the Department of Natural Resources [[DNR) has not put forward a plan regarding what they are going to do with those sites. Why is that? Are these sites contaminated sites and the DNR taking it over makes it look like government is being responsible once it's revealed that the sites are contaminated?

Again, the reason I created this thread was to find out what's holding up development along the riverfront. If it's Hazmat issues, then I understand why development is slow, but city and state governments should be figuring out how to clean up contaminated areas and set aside money in their budgets to handle it.

Now, if the issue is not a Hazmat issue, then is it a political issue? For example, are there some city officials who want only "their people" to be involved in redevelopment, meaning that they only want to see their friends and/or family get government contracts to redevelop the riverfront? Or are city officials afraid that if you build up the riverfront, then the people who live in the nicer areas of Detroit will leave those areas for the riverfront, causing those areas to become run down, as people with lesser means start moving into those areas?

In addition, if the issue is not a Hazmat issue, then is it about holding on to the land to make a profit in other easier ways than residential development? GM has sat on the properties east of the GM/RenCen complex for years and now that the Grand Prix is back downtown, GM can now charge the Grand Prix people a nice fee for using that vacant land. Will they give any of it up now?

Finally, if the issue, lack of riverfront development, is not a Hazmat issue, then is it due to the officials in power not having the vision or imagination to make something happen? In other words, are the "right" people in those positions to make the "right" decisions? I question that often when it concerns the develoment of Detroit's riverfront.

[Richard]

They did not clean up the uniroyal plant site in that sense,they replaced the topsoil so you can safely eat the dirt,as long as you do not dig a hole and eat that dirt you will be fine.

They only did a section and put a 7’ buffer between that and the river,in 2005 the city gave development rights to Jerome Bettis,Detroits football guy ,who has a plan but it will take until 2038 to complete.

Out of the 43 acres the width of the proposed Riverwalk path is the only part the Detroit Riverfront conservancy has control of.

I do not think it is a matter of the fear of those with means moving out of established neighborhoods,many of your other thoughts play a big part and it takes years to deal with contaminated properties.

State of Michigan has over 22,000 contaminated properties,that is hundreds of millions in remediation costs that takes time to build up the funds.

Of course the 86 land bank properties that were demolished where the soil was replaced with contaminated soil does not help much in reducing the number of contaminated sites,the downside of no bid contracts.

They have a few parks that are supposed to be getting ready to open,not sure where they are in relation to your points of interest.

https://littleguidedetroit.com/annou...e-sport-house/

[stasu1213]

^Hazmat might be the case for the lack of development, TIMT, but the the question I want answered is, "How deep down in the soil do you have to go to clean a former industrial site on the Detroit River?" They supposedly cleaned up the Uniroyal Plant site, right? So, what's the delay in getting a residential development put on it? The DNR now owns the Bing site and a site east of the parking lot at Rivard/Cullen Plaza. Someone agreed that it wasn't a good idea to put residential in those spots, yet the Department of Natural Resources [[DNR) has not put forward a plan regarding what they are going to do with those sites. Why is that? Are these sites contaminated sites and the DNR taking it over makes it look like government is being responsible once it's revealed that the sites are contaminated?

Again, the reason I created this thread was to find out what's holding up development along the riverfront. If it's Hazmat issues, then I understand why development is slow, but city and state governments should be figuring out how to clean up contaminated areas and set aside money in their budgets to handle it.

Now, if the issue is not a Hazmat issue, then is it a political issue? For example, are there some city officials who want only "their people" to be involved in redevelopment, meaning that they only want to see their friends and/or family get government contracts to redevelop the riverfront? Or are city officials afraid that if you build up the riverfront, then the people who live in the nicer areas of Detroit will leave those areas for the riverfront, causing those areas to become run down, as people with lesser means start moving into those areas?

In addition, if the issue is not a Hazmat issue, then is it about holding on to the land to make a profit in other easier ways than residential development? GM has sat on the properties east of the GM/RenCen complex for years and now that the Grand Prix is back downtown, GM can now charge the Grand Prix people a nice fee for using that vacant land. Will they give any of it up now?

Finally, if the issue, lack of riverfront development, is not a Hazmat issue, then is it due to the officials in power not having the vision or imagination to make something happen? In other words, are the "right" people in those positions to make the "right" decisions? I question that often when it concerns the develoment of Detroit's riverfront.

The Uniroyal site is finishing the development of the Riverwalk on the river end of the site. Work had started on it two years ago but abruptly stopped last July with no explanation. Work had resumed late April. It was reported that the site was cleaned and ready for development. However the Riverfront Conservancy is tight lipped on any other plans for that site

[Richard]

The goal/intent was to build 2000 condos and multi family units,in 2012.

Conservancy only oversees the riverfront path aspect,so they really have nothing to do with the rest of it which is why they are tight lipped,it’s not their concern.

[stasu1213]

The goal/intent was to build 2000 condos and multi family units,in 2012.

Conservancy only oversees the riverfront path aspect,so they really have nothing to do with the rest of it which is why they are tight lipped,it’s not their concern.

Thanks

[stasu1213]

^Hazmat might be the case for the lack of development, TIMT, but the the question I want answered is, "How deep down in the soil do you have to go to clean a former industrial site on the Detroit River?" They supposedly cleaned up the Uniroyal Plant site, right? So, what's the delay in getting a residential development put on it? The DNR now owns the Bing site and a site east of the parking lot at Rivard/Cullen Plaza. Someone agreed that it wasn't a good idea to put residential in those spots, yet the Department of Natural Resources [[DNR) has not put forward a plan regarding what they are going to do with those sites. Why is that? Are these sites contaminated sites and the DNR taking it over makes it look like government is being responsible once it's revealed that the sites are contaminated?

Again, the reason I created this thread was to find out what's holding up development along the riverfront. If it's Hazmat issues, then I understand why development is slow, but city and state governments should be figuring out how to clean up contaminated areas and set aside money in their budgets to handle it.

Now, if the issue is not a Hazmat issue, then is it a political issue? For example, are there some city officials who want only "their people" to be involved in redevelopment, meaning that they only want to see their friends and/or family get government contracts to redevelop the riverfront? Or are city officials afraid that if you build up the riverfront, then the people who live in the nicer areas of Detroit will leave those areas for the riverfront, causing those areas to become run down, as people with lesser means start moving into those areas?

In addition, if the issue is not a Hazmat issue, then is it about holding on to the land to make a profit in other easier ways than residential development? GM has sat on the properties east of the GM/RenCen complex for years and now that the Grand Prix is back downtown, GM can now charge the Grand Prix people a nice fee for using that vacant land. Will they give any of it up now?

Finally, if the issue, lack of riverfront development, is not a Hazmat issue, then is it due to the officials in power not having the vision or imagination to make something happen? In other words, are the "right" people in those positions to make the "right" decisions? I question that often when it concerns the develoment of Detroit's riverfront.

Royce I had been texting the "political" theory on this site for years only to be called a conspiracy theory nut. I agree with Richard that the Uniroyal site is probably still contaminated. That spot may become another park with trails and bike paths. A wooded safari like park with rocks and hills for those whom are adventurous to enjoy with an occasional Red Bull Mountain Bike contest being held there. I still think that many underdeveloped areas including empty storefronts to these recently developed areas such Brush Park Modrtn City, Orleans Landing, West Village, and some spots along Merchant's Row is as you had suggested, political. There had been many slow down in development and retail that take years to open since 2014 under this Council by District. Council by District gives one council member too much control over what goes on in that council person's district.

[Richard]

^ that’s kinda what brought me to this site in the first place,I understand every city has its little power swapping clicks but usually it is a game that is played after you take care of the basics and the people first,then you get the spoils,when you exploit the people for that gain before they are comfortable it makes it difficult to understand that way of operating.

If you get really bored,do a search on how many properties that border Woodward were bought by a couple of investment companies out of Ann Arbor 30 days prior to the declaration of bankruptcy of the city.

Then take it a step further and see how many city assets were transferred to offshore untraceable companies during the bankruptcy,why would somebody need to hide what was purchased to the extent it was necessary to set up offshore accounts? That all was the systematic rape of a city disguised as a bankruptcy.

[ABetterDetroit]

I drove along Atwater yesterday and there is still a severe lack of development along the riverfront, other than the RiverWalk. Is it just due to a lack of money? With all of the vacant waterfront property on both sides of Atwater Street, the City still can't find developers eager to build residential and retail developments? Is it just due to a lack of money? Or is there something else at play? Is the city afraid that if you build along the riverfront, wealthier residents will move from their neighborhoods such as Boston Edison, Palmer Park, Sherwood Forest, and Indian Village, depleting the viability of those neighborhoods?

The stretch of riverfront along Atwater from the GM/RenCen, to Stroh River Place could hold thousands of residents and retail. Orleans Landing is a start, but it could have been designed to hold more residents and offer some bonified retail for restaurants and shops. There was an announcement back in 2020 or 2021 that a new residential development just west of Orleans Landing was going to be in the works. I haven't heard anything or seen an ounce of dirt turned, indicating its start.

I have a ton of additional questions. Is much of the land still held by property owners waiting for the city to give them a bigger payout than what's reasonable? Are environmental issues with properties keeping developers at bay? Is the city holding on to land to award it only to Detroit/Minority based developers? Or is it due to a lack of vision on the part of the powers that be? Do other cities have these same kinds of issues when it comes to developing their riverfronts? I'm at a loss as to why it's taking so long for development along Detroit's riverfront to get started. Somebody help make sense of this. And thank you in advance.

The answer to your question is: Yes, a lack of money is the correct answer.
The construction gap is real and it is prohibitive to new developments. Developments get built because of profits. No profit and there are a hell of a lot less developments. There are only so many folks that are willing to take on tremendous risk with small to no gains because of ‘Love for the City’ Anyway the ones we do have like that all are fairly busy in the areas they have interest in and unfortunately the River front is not one of them.

[Richard]

Out of all of the desirable locations,the riverfront is usually at the top of the list.

In Detroit case it was at the top of the list for industrial,so now you are fighting years of remediation in most cases investment follows the path of least resistance.

2004 is the year they actually started working on the Uniroyal site and have taken this long to just remediate a portion of it to make it viable,there are people waiting on the list since the 70s to have their land remediated under the superfund for buried fuel tanks.

That’s why in order to speed up the process you can replace contaminated industrial properties with little remediation as long as you retain the industrial aspect,but if you want to change it to residential or where the general public has daily excess to it,you better grab you a chair and a 6 pack because you will be waiting for a long time.

Catch 22,banks will not loan on contaminated properties,so you have to have really deep pockets,like in the millions and pay for the remediation out of pocket before you can even get a loan to build something there.

Or you have to buy it paying cash and be prepared to sit in it,like for decades,while you are in line for federal or state clean up funds.

Lots of people have purchased buildings that in the last 100 years could have been a gas station,without even doing basic research at the city and seen if there was a record of the tanks being pulled and received an additional $800k to a million dollar wake up call.

[stasu1213]

Out of all of the desirable locations,the riverfront is usually at the top of the list.

In Detroit case it was at the top of the list for industrial,so now you are fighting years of remediation in most cases investment follows the path of least resistance.

2004 is the year they actually started working on the Uniroyal site and have taken this long to just remediate a portion of it to make it viable,there are people waiting on the list since the 70s to have their land remediated under the superfund for buried fuel tanks.

That’s why in order to speed up the process you can replace contaminated industrial properties with little remediation as long as you retain the industrial aspect,but if you want to change it to residential or where the general public has daily excess to it,you better grab you a chair and a 6 pack because you will be waiting for a long time.

Catch 22,banks will not loan on contaminated properties,so you have to have really deep pockets,like in the millions and pay for the remediation out of pocket before you can even get a loan to build something there.

Or you have to buy it paying cash and be prepared to sit in it,like for decades,while you are in line for federal or state clean up funds.

Lots of people have purchased buildings that in the last 100 years could have been a gas station,without even doing basic research at the city and seen if there was a record of the tanks being pulled and received an additional $800k to a million dollar wake up call.

So besides having the Riverwalk go through the edge of that site the rest of the Uniroyal site is just an uninhabitable wasteland?

[Richard]

I was following it by budget allocations,they allocated $3.5 million towards remediation this year,so they have been doing it as funds become available,a bit here a bit there.

But that $3.5m was to finish the river walk part and not referred to any other part of that parcel.

The river walk was the most stringent,they had to dig all of the soil out below the river line in order to create a 7’ buffer zone between the river and the rest of the land so the contaminants could not leach into the river.

That tells you that they are not expecting to remove all of the contamination from that site,most cases they will remove the top soil X amount of feet down and replace it,what is below that can still leach out and down,it is a questionable practice because some believe the contamination can leach upwards.

It has during hydraulic soil action before,remember the road that popped up into the air recently?

So you have the river,the river walk,then they come along and build 2000 units on the rest,that’s what happened to the road,the weight of the coke pile forced the land up elsewhere.

From what I can tell they say it has all been completed but the funds allocated so far has only been referred to the river walk aspect,because the development rights to rest of the land was turned over to a private enterprise,so the ability for them to get results is different then the cities.

From what I have been able to figure is they have installed the in ground venting on the rest.

That is usually the first step in remediation,they put pipes into the ground and suck the air out pulling the trapped vapors out with it.

I know from how it works with service stations is if they are not going to be able to get to the full remediation process they will install the ventilation systems until they can proceed.

If you see a service station that has a little separate building with pipes sticking up and you can hear what sounds like a generator running 24/7 that’s what they are doing,sucking the vapors out of the soil.

If that process holds true with this land,it’s going to be awhile.

The starts and stops has been because they get allocated funding,say in that years budget and if they burn through that in a few months,then it shuts down until the next years budget approval.

From what I can tell and where I have found the funding allocations has been from the states version of the EPA, but the states are allocated funding by the feds and then they disperse it accordingly.

Like I mentioned though,the state has over 22,000 contaminated sites and also for every project in city of Detroit they have also received brownfield funding from the state.

So that site is not only competing with 22,000 other sites it is also competing with every other project that comes up and is not considered critical but still qualifies for funds.

And in the middle of all of that,all that soil that gets removed has to be incinerated in order to burn the toxins out,and there is only one or two incinerators that can do that without contaminating the air in the process.

So they are backed up also.

This is all so people can understand the process even more important is if somebody wants to buy a property,due diligence when it comes to contamination should be the first check.

The state has a listing of every property and has inspected it,mostly commercial and that information is available to the public,when it comes to residential and all of the recent and past demolitions and the cost cutting that some like to take,you need to find out where that fill dirt came from,it’s supposed to be in record and traceable but the past has involved shady people.

It’s not expensive to have a soil sample done and it goes pretty quick,even more so in Detroit that has a lot of commercial mixed in with residential.

A 150 year old grandpa snail on quaaludes moves faster then the contaminated remediation process along with 1000 miles of red tape because there are so many government agencies involved.

I do not know the details of the soil incineration process,but it does require an incinerator,it makes me wonder although to late now,is if they could have converted Detroits incinerator into a soil burning one,they burn clean and not smelly and the city could have made some serious bank on it because they are scarce as hens teeth and in big demand.

People ship contaminated soil 5 states away to dispose of it.

[stasu1213]

A friend of mine had said that a contractor working on the part of the Riverwalk that is going through the Univroyal site from Mt Elliott Park to Gabriel Richard Park now wont be completed until next year. Hope that is not true