Miami expanding its PeopleMover, the "MetroMover" for the 2nd time. Why can't we?

[Richard]

NYC and Chicago's elevated lines are both steel. I never realized concrete was that much more expensive, but if it is, we could probably see it for even less.

Also just wanna say, absolutely loving this thread. Jason, I appreciate your measured outlook of the financial side of what transit expansions would look like here in Detroit, and to see the numbers support it too.

I always felt the RoI for public transit infrastructure is much more intangible and seen in the form of things like property value, neighborhood desirability and passive draw for new residents, quality of life by way of reduced traffic, air quality improvements and reduced gas use when you don't have to drive your local errands, and new opportunities for business and culture to come up in more dense and walkable areas. All of which is hard to quantify, and when one looks at it from a reductive standpoint of simply "does the construction/operation costs get paid for by fares y/n" it sort of ignores all those more nuanced benefits. So it's great to look at your numbers and see it also spelled out in terms the skeptics can digest.

Steel used to be cheaper because it has less mass versus concrete to carry the weight,so less materials used equates less cost,and the biggest advantage is you had longer distance between spans.

What has changed is,those big huge piles of coke laying about in Detroit ?

My guess is they were accumulated in anticipation of large infrastructure projects because they now mix it with the concrete which drives the price down.

Increased labor costs with steel verses concrete,with concrete now it is all prefabricated off site and then just set in place with cranes,also cutting the time it takes to build and over all labor.

New technology is allowing them to increase the span width which requires less supports.

Where I am at they are building,malls and large warehouses with large pre fabricated concrete walls,floor to roof.

One day you see a slab,2 days later the entire shell is done.

They built a elevated highway here from the port to the freeway,spans were 250’ on T style supports.

That’s why I am thinking if that concept was applied to rail,they would be just pouring the footing and the T even if it is 24” off of the ground or less they save the costs of having to lay rail beds which is a lot of excavation etc,but that would be a monorail system,but they could power through the rail so no need to run cables for the electric cars or third rail which is what most light rail is using.

Steel also has its complications,California had a few bridge spans built using Chinese steel,it was junk and the taxpayers had to pay to do it twice,that equates to a few billion.

Thats the thing with steel and looking for large quantities of it in order to recreate things that were more feasible in the past,you guys did have an advantage until the local steel mills shut down,now there is a increased transportation costs involved to have it brought in,it’s heavy and expensive to transport.

So the economical advantages of steel verses concrete have changed.

The cost per yard of concrete in Detroit is the same as it is in Tampa,but Detroit uses union labor to produce it,so really it is like 40% cheaper to produce it in Detroit then elsewhere because the raw materials are brought into the port.

We also have a port but the raw materials are brought in by rail which increases costs,so in theory you guys should have a lower cost per mile for light rail.

[jcole]

And an entertainment ride is what it first and always has been intended as. I remember when it was built everybody made 4 or 5 trips around the city stopping off at Greektown, RenCen, Millendar Center, etc so they could see their favorite city spots without having to walk the miles to them. People would park at some out of the way cheap lot and ride the Mover around town, stopping to eat, shop and simply look around. It was never intended to get masses of people to work or home after work. It was and is entertainment

Finally it is great as an entertainment ride. Whenever I want to show a visitor Detroit, I always start with a couple of laps on the People Mover.

[Canadian Visitor]

The interesting part about that

Montreal regional population 4.3 million with a GDP of 180 billion.

Detroit regional population 4.3 million with a GDP of 241.6 billion.

Tax rate in Montréal for over $116,000 is 29% 33% over 200k federal

Detroit region now is 24% and 32% federal respectively.

So in theory Detroit region has a higher GDP but has less investment in infrastructure compared to Montreal,it’s 99% politics because you can see the funds are there and you have 2 matching sets of numbers and one set is 50 billion more then the other,one is expanding rail the other is not.

Comparisons like these are problematic at best. Provinces do not equal states [[in general, relatively larger and more important); tax rates in both countries are offset by a variety of tax credits [[In the U.S. your deducting your mortgage interest, and IRA contributions); in Canada your deducting your savings for College, buying your first home, RRSPs [[similar to IRAs) and so on.

Montreal is the hub for French-speaking Canada, in a bilingual country, and 2 hours from the national capital.

Investment, proportionately in transit is higher in Canada, and is supported by much higher ridership as a result of both better service but also denser urban areas.

GDP is actually a bad comparitor too. Companies may be nominally HQ'd in whatever city, and report their earnings [[GDP) there. But oddly Deleware doesn't employ 1 in 4 Americans, or even 1 in 4 CEOs, where the HQs are mostly on paper.

Cities in Canada do not have income tax; and many U.S. Cities don't either, same w/Corporate tax, which means they also don't capture alot of the wealth attributed to them.

But as I noted, its also deceptive. Toronto will report GDP from most of Canada's major banks which does have their HQs; but a lot of that money is made out of regional divisions, and local branches, and is only nominally Toronto's to claim.

*****

The thing with fully automated,Brightline had 40 people killed in the first 2 years,mostly from suicide and the rest at crossings with people trying to beat the train,even though it only takes a matter of seconds for it to go through the crossing.

I wonder if the Montreal one has tested things like that? Like throwing a crash test dummy in front of the train and see if it saves lives,it may just be a given though,more rail equals more deaths.

The Montreal REM does not have any level crossings.

It also has platform edge doors to prevent people from 'jumping'.

[Richard]

I was basing it on what I read,Montreal falls under the “federal” funding of Quebec.

Density not really matter,both places share the same population levels that could utilize it,two different things though,Detroit does not have the political will power for “street cars” so I am basing my input on light rail that connects everything together.

Thats why they call it a mainline because it provides a base to feed off of,otherwise you are just fighting years to put in little 2 mile runs that are independent of everything else,they serve more as a convenience until the mainline is in place,otherwise nobody is going to drive 5 miles to ride for 2.

By design they are the last mile so you can use the whole system without having to depend on a car.

After the main line where you establish the runs will fall into place because it will make sense.

It does not make sense to people other then those directly impacted to have the Qline or PM because they are only little expensive snippets of the bigger picture.So yes on their own they are somewhat of a novelty,so you cannot blame the distractors.

Orlando and surrounding makes sprawl into a whole new meaning,density does not apply,Brightline is privately funded and the connecting line runs from like Detroit to Ann Arbor past miles of nothingness,and connects cities and towns that have populations 1/4 the size of the city of Detroit and smaller then that.

They do not have multi million dollar terminals most of it is waiting under a shelter like a bus stop or like Amtrak stations.

Did I mention it was privately funded,somebody had to figure there was a pay off otherwise they would not have taken the risk.

Street cars are different and density matters and they are important as that last mile after light rail is established,so you do not have to have a park n ride type of situation.

But street cars and light rail has been around for centuries,so nobody is re-inventing the wheel of feasibility and how it applies,the cost to establish and how it is paid for,you can debate that until the cows come home and and re-submit that information in 100 different ways,it is not going to change anything.

The only thing I trying to stress,weather it matters or not is,the goal is to establish service and as it stands the political will in the city of Detroit is not there,or is it in Washington once those local representatives go there,the political will is also not on the state level either,so you are trackless no matter how you spin it.

The only ray of hope is with a rapid light rail that connects the cities,because you can draw from a bigger group in order to change that political will,how much it costs to implement,what the cars will look like where it sets in relation to the dirt is all irrelevant and putting the caboose before the engine.

Its not a party thing,Florida is running rail into every corner,it started in Orlando which is democratic and supported by the democrats there a lot of the cities and towns it runs through is totally red and supported by those politicians.

California,Minneapolis etc is and has been running rail in all forms for a long time,they are majority democrats.

Without a diverse group of politicians in Michigan getting on board,nothing is going to happen.

People clearly have the will,there has been opposition against it from day one,that just comes with the territory,for decades people have been able to overcome that.

There is a disconnect between what the people want and what the politicians decide what is best for the people,that is not the way it is supposed to work,if you want rails,then you have to put the politicians on board by holding them to the rails,they are not going to just offer it up.

You have the political clout in the Detroit region now add to it all the way up to Ann Arbor and beyond,distract the opposition and you now have millions in your corner.

Its fighting the battle that you know you have a chance of winning,people only have so much energy.

[masterblaster]

And an entertainment ride is what it first and always has been intended as. I remember when it was built everybody made 4 or 5 trips around the city stopping off at Greektown, RenCen, Millendar Center, etc so they could see their favorite city spots without having to walk the miles to them. People would park at some out of the way cheap lot and ride the Mover around town, stopping to eat, shop and simply look around. It was never intended to get masses of people to work or home after work. It was and is entertainment

The PeopleMover was started by the Southeast Michigan Transit Authority [[SEMTA). Why would a transit authority initiate this for a tourist attraction?

I'm sorry, about the People Mover's first and foremost purpose was not as a tourist attraction, its purpose was a 'downtown circulator', which is:

'an automated system that shuttles people anywhere and everywhere they needed to go within the central business district of a city'

The PeopleMover failed because, as the below article states, "its effectiveness was limited by the city's failure to build out its transit system."

The plan was that people would take bus or rapid transit to downtown, than once they arrived downtown, they would take the PeopleMover to a station that was close to their destination. That is why PeopleMover stations were built on all of the spoke roads radiating from downtown [[Fort, Michigan, Grand River, Woodward, Gratiot, and East Jefferson). For instance, take the light rail on Gratiot to downtown where it ends at the People Mover station, take the People Mover to the Fort street station near my job in the Detroit News building.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n-people-mover

[Knightmessenger]

I think the existing systems have to be supported and enhanced. Unify the fare system of the people mover with the buses. Expand the transit only lanes for the QLine and add more signal priority. Don't just stop with Corktown for the rapid bus only lanes. Gratiot is very wide, why not make one of those lanes transit only and build out stations for the current FAST stops. You just need red paint and to build platforms.

I think the biggest thing lacking with metro Detroit transit is proof of concept. Something that is inexpensive to build but works and gets people wanting more. Maybe the special bus lane in Corktown will do that.

I feel like the streetscape improvements have been working. They show a drastic improvement that can be done for a reasonable amount of money. Hopefully this leads to more funding of expanding the existing streetscapes to go further distance. The renderings shown before they were built were nice but seeing them in action has been amazing. It really opened my eyes to how much impact design of a street can have on things like economic development or willingness of people to stop there. That's kinda what needs to happen with transit. Something that can be completed within a budget and allows to see an improvement in action, creating support for more.

I also think we need to demand less lopsided funding for roads. Why is it that a transit millage in 2016 needed a majority support to become law [[which it didn't get) but I-75 in Oakland County got greenlit for expansion without any debate or vote? Maybe taxpayers should have more direct voice in adding any future liabilities that come with road expansions? Maybe MDoT should be charged with funding more types of transportation instead of just roads. I've often heard road funding is heavily favored under existing state laws. If the democrat leadership is so much more favorable of transit, why not push for reforms that would un rig the road favoritism? If the major candidates for governor don't ever consider this an issue that needs to be discussed, then maybe we should open our elections to more parties with ranked choice voting. I can't believe "fix the damn roads" worked as a campaign slogan for Whitmer. If most voters in this state think that the true cost of the roads and related infrastructure just needs to be fixed this one time, the support for transit will never materialize. The truth is that government building roads for cars [[and only cars) is fundamentally flawed.

Not Just Bikes, Strong Towns, Adam Something and many others on youtube all have extensive videos on why car centric development is terrible. Not just because riding on a train is more fun than driving or better for the environment. Not because transit oriented development is a catchy buzzword phrase and trams make a city look more sophisticated. No, car dependency takes up more space and costs more money to move less people with more fatalities. It is not economical in any sense.
Everybody always thinks of republicans as anti transit but if you can drive the point how much more fiscally responsible transit is, you might be able to get their attention. Know your audience and create a message to connect with them.

Look I appreciate that people care enough to do a very extensive research about what it would cost to extend the people mover over Jefferson. But it's too much of a final end point when you first need to lay the foundation for a shift away from car dependency culture.

[ABetterDetroit]

If the democrat leadership is so much more favorable of transit, why not push for reforms that would un rig the road favoritism? If the major candidates for governor don't ever consider this an issue that needs to be discussed, then maybe we should open our elections to more parties with ranked choice voting. I can't believe "fix the damn roads" worked as a campaign slogan for Whitmer.

The important part is not whether or not you ‘believe’ that it worked but the simple fact that it did work to get her elected. Now if you think that splitting up the vote with a third ‘Transit party’ that is against roads is a good idea then I will ask you a simple question. How do you think transit will fair under a true maga Governor and maga legislature here in Michigan? Just a guess here but I think it would get stomped out of existence. Like in Zero state funding towards transit. Compromise is not on the maga agenda. Vilify and punish minority political causes is on their agenda and anyone who is ‘anti-auto’ is just someone they can lick their chops over then pick out of their teeth.

[Honky Tonk]

The important part is not whether or not you ‘believe’ that it worked but the simple fact that it did work to get her elected. Now if you think that splitting up the vote with a third ‘Transit party’ that is against roads is a good idea then I will ask you a simple question. How do you think transit will fair under a true maga Governor and maga legislature here in Michigan? Just a guess here but I think it would get stomped out of existence. Like in Zero state funding towards transit. Compromise is not on the maga agenda. Vilify and punish minority political causes is on their agenda and anyone who is ‘anti-auto’ is just someone they can lick their chops over then pick out of their teeth.

Try Ex-Lax or Dulcolax to relieve those symptoms you're experiencing, ABD. How are things in Auburn Hills these days? Any affordable housing on the horizon?