Will You USE Blended Ethanol Gas in Your Car? Will it help?

[Richard]

It may have more to do with,E10 is not considered a bio fuel where E15 is,which makes it available for tax credits,which the refineries can then turn around and sell in order to offset pollution fines at the refineries as a result of producing regular gasoline.

Iowa passed a law making it a requirement for all stations to sell E15.

They are not doing it because they want to get comfy with the bio groups,they are doing it because they see the profit in it.

It’s the hypocrisy,they know that E15 has an increased pollution output so they want to increase the output of E15,the response will be to force the automakers to increase their pollution controls in order to offset it.

Kum & Go which is establishing in Detroit has introduced E15 to every state they have expanded into.

Not much different then the oil companies that established gas stations in order to sell their products,you now have a corn producer establishing gas stations in order to sell E15 and higher in order to sell more corn.

Soooo Mike ,E15 will never be sold in Detroit ?

[MikeM]

Make sure you update the list when the summer blend is introduced in June and as stated any gas station that currently sells 88 octane is already able to dispense E15.

Here's that updated list: still steady at 14 stations. Five months of E15 waivers and yet not a single new E15 station in Michigan.

[Richard]

Growth Energy, which represents the producers and supporters of ethanol, is partnering with Kum & Go to expand the company's offering of higher ethanol blends.

"Kum & Go has stepped up and responded to consumer demand for lower-cost, higher-performing and more environmentally friendly fuel by adding E15 at their pumps," stated Tom Buis, co-chair of Growth Energy. "It's been a pleasure working with such a forward-looking company and we congratulate Kum & Go on this important milestone."

You will be swimming in it soon,why would the state push to allow for its expansion if it knew that nobody was going to help expand its use,until they found somebody that could.

They would not have done the expansion into the state of the E15 waiver was not a possibility or if it was approved then not approved after the first round,they are not going to risk millions of investment money on an unstable E15 waiver program.

Outside of that they do not need to waivers in the other states,because those states made it mandatory.

[MikeM]

You get so confused striving for the last word that you get everything wrong.

E15 can't be sold in CBOB states during the summer until the law is changed. Michigan is a CBOB state. Congress is divided. It won't be sold next summer unless the administration issues temporary waivers again.

[Richard]

Correct me if I am wrong so you can have the last word.

You have a D governor
You now have a D senate
You now have a D House

in state

Then you have a company coming into the state that has a hard on for E15 which is classified as a alternative fuel and subject to federal funds as tax credits as incentives.

So you would have me to believe that your total D state that is all about saving the planet with alternative fuels and the federal funds it brings,is going to tell this company geeee we are not going to allow you to sell it,not only that they can do what they did in some of the other states where when the governor had full support,they made it mandatory to sell E15 in those states.

No wonder it was so easy to dupe people into believing they were getting a free bridge.

Notice E10 is not classified an alternative fuel but E15 is,which opens it up to tax incentives to sell it from the feds,of course Michigan as a D state can always say no to the federal funds,there is always a first time for everything.

We are saving the planet here,those who have breathing difficulties can suck it up for the greater good while we do everything we can to destroy the planet even faster while we save it,there is a lot of money in corn and federal dollars when they are used to help save the planet,so who can say no to that?

The boss man made it a special trip
to Iowa and a promise to push this stuff,if he cannot at least make it appear as though gas prices are dropping,even if it is done artificially with E15,you will be dealing with the orange guy in 2024.

“Homegrown, domestically-sourced biofuels have reduced greenhouse gas emissions the equivalent of taking 18 million cars off the road per year,” Sisung added. “Allowing for expanded E15 sales is a commonsense approach to easing the uncertainty caused by increased fuel prices and supply chain challenges.”

https://new.michfb.com/about/news-me...20immediately.

That statement alone is almost enough to make little Swedish girls think that you are no longer stealing their childhood from them.

The OP saw the stage was being set,otherwise they would have never brought it up,I mentioned the stage was being set,many posts ago.

Enter stage left - Kum & Go a company that has introduced E15 into every market that they have expanded into.

E15 is their highest profit,why would they even bother setting up shop in Michigan while spending millions in order to do so,if the one item that they make the most profit on is banned from sale.

They could have just as easily expanded in the other states where they are already serving.

The only thing they have different then anybody else in the sea of gas stations to compete with is - E15

[MikeM]

Federal law prohibits E15 sales June 1 to September 15 in conventional markets, period. Until Congress changes that, it doesn't matter who is in state government. I'm sure the republican governors of all those states pushing E15 will eventually get their way when Congress next turns red.

[Richard]

You are thinking the federal government is the daddy over states when it is not.

Iowa Lawmakers OK Bill Mandating Sale of E15 at Gas Stations


Iowa would be the first state in the nation to require that gas stations have pumps selling fuel with at least 15% ethanol under a bill that received final legislative approval Tuesday.

https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2022-04-26/iowa-lawmakers-ok-bill-mandating-sale-of-e15-at-gas-stations


Minnesota tried mandating it also but the republicans shot it down,it’s a blue thing and not a red thing.

The republicans care about peoples health and as we know are reluctant to pass mandates on citizens as a rule,where as the blue ones want to mandate everybody’s life from cradle to grave.

As a rule,but Iowa is Republican but they sell corn,so like any other state they push what will bring the most revenue.

Federal law prohibits the sale of weed,but yet here we are a bunch of pot smoking states.

The federal government can make suggestions to states and even blackmail them with free money in order for them to see it their way but they are not the all power in dictating to states.

If Michigan wants to make it mandatory also all they need is to vote on it ,it’s their right.

The federal government is there to place guidelines,they actually cannot force states to follow them.

The states are the people not the federal government.

[MikeM]

Iowa is mandating that half of a station's pumps offer E15, and not until 2026. That doesn't mean they can sell it during the summer, just like they couldn't last summer without the federal waiver.

[Richard]

EPA determined the nine covered areas to be the metropolitan areas of Baltimore, Chicago, Hartford, Houston, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, New York City, Philadelphia, and San Diego.

E15 can already be sold year-round in parts of the country that have a Reformulated Gasoline [[RFG) program.
Because the RVP of E10 and E15 gasoline used by consumers will be the same [[both will be 1 psi higher than otherwise required by EPA or state regulations) EPA does not expect any impact on air quality from this limited action. EPA’s research has shown no significant impact on evaporative emissions when the 1-psi waiver is extended to E15.With no significant impacts on emissions from cars and trucks, we expect consumers can continue to use E15 without concern that its use in the summer will impact air quality.

https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa...iver-e15-sales

There are cities that as listed sell E15 year round

If Michigan implemented a RFG program they could also be selling it year round

The people that are fighting against its use and took it to court under the Trump administration is the petroleum industry,because it amounts to watered down gasoline,if it adds 30% then it removes 30% of the fuel they sell and drives down the price that they can sell their fuel for.

Its really not a matter of anything outside of 2 different industries fighting to see who can make more money.

So in Michigan you have a marathon refinery,it would be them who would be fighting against it,where in a state like Iowa the heavyweights are going to be in the corn industry verses a refinery.

[MikeM]

RFG is a whole 'nother topic. And neither Michigan nor the Southeast Michigan non-attainment area require the use of RFG, so who cares?

[Richard]

Under the plan, announced by the Environmental Protection Agency, oil refiners will be required to add 20.82 billion gallons of biofuels to their fuel in 2023, 21.87 billion gallons in 2024, and 22.68 billion gallons in 2025.

The proposal marks the latest chapter for the more than decade old Renewable Fuel Standard [[RFS), under which oil refiners are required to blend billions of gallons of biofuels into the nation's fuel mix or buy tradable credits from those that do.

The biofuel industry got a boost this year from passage of the Inflation Reduction Act, which provides significant subsidies to the biodiesel and sustainable jet fuel industries in the form of tax credits.
Refiners like Marathon Petroleum Corp and PBF Energy Inc have converted units at their oil refineries to produce renewable diesel to take advantage of growing demand and government subsidies.
Lawmakers are also pushing a bill that would expand sales of higher volume ethanol blends of gasoline called E15,

The U.S. government estimates that the lifecycle greenhouse gas emissions from biofuels can be more than 40% lower than straight gasoline, meaning adding them to the fuel mix can help fight climate change.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/1...155223839.html

So all they have to do is present E15 as a way to fight climate change,if it does or does not,really does not matter.

[MikeM]

Sure. They don't even have to present it as a climate change issue, they just have to change the current law [[Clean Air Act). EPA tried valiantly under Trump but the courts recognized they were usurping the legislative function of Congress. Congress needs to amend the Act to get E15 treated the same as E10 to clear the way for its broader use.

[MikeM]

Responding to pleas by the governors of eight Corn Belt states — Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota and Wisconsin — EPA, earlier this month, proposed a plan that removes a regulatory advantage that E10 has vs. E15 during the summer months. More specifically, EPA said that it would hold a public hearing early this spring on the agency’s proposal to eliminate - next year, in the eight states in question - a decades-old waiver in the Clean Air Act that allows E10 sold during the summer months to have a Reid Vapor Pressure one pound per square inch higher than otherwise permitted for gasoline, essentially putting E10 and E15 on an equal footing. The move was praised by the governors and corn and ethanol advocates, but they criticized the EPA’s plan to delay implementation of the rule to 2024 to give refiners, blenders and service stations more time to make the switch — they wanted to eliminate the E10 RVP waiver effective June 1 this year.

At first glance, the Environmental Protection Agency’s proposal to facilitate increased sales of E15 — an 85/15 blend of gasoline blendstock and ethanol — by putting it on the same summertime regulatory footing as commonly available E10 in eight Midwest/Great Plains states might seem like a boon to corn farmers and ethanol producers. But as we discuss in today’s RBN blog, there are a number of economic, practical and even psychological barriers to broadened public access to — and use of — E15 that go well beyond the specific regulatory issue the EPA proposal addresses. As a result, as we see it, EPA’s plan is unlikely to boost E15 demand in any meaningful way, at least for now.

Continued at:

Hard Habit To Break - How Will EPA's Plan For Year-Round E15 Sales In Eight States Play Out?

[Richard]

Nice update.

Its kinda hard to imagine in this timeframe getting anything fóssil fuel related across the board.

But another election will come up and those states represent a large voting block.

Interesting enough Michigan was for a long time #11 in the top corn producing states,so you would figure that they would be included in the push as it adds to the GDP or did.

In the other states as corporations take over more and more production their lobbying tactics are a bit different and more productive.

The holdout manufacturers are more concerned about rising or falling based on EVs,they are not going to be investing in becoming E15 compatible.

[shovelhead]

15 percent ethanol may cause damage to older vehicles, many times owned by lower income people that may entail expensive repairs “if” the parts are even available. Not to mention the reduction in fuel economy as Ethanol has less efficiency than gasoline. While E85 is priced more inline with the reduced mileage and lower than regular 87 octane I don’t think that there will be any further adjustments in prices for 15 vs. 10% fuels.

So like Cash For Clunkers and how it removed many used cars from the market at that time it’s just another tax on lower income people, the ones that can least afford it.

[detmsp]

Will not be using it.

It increases oil consumption [as it takes slightly more than a gallon of petroleum to make a gallon of ethanol, and then your car gets about 5% less mileage with ethanol blend].

This is just flat out wrong. It takes more than 2 gallons of petroleum to make a gallon of gasoline. So if you're right that it takes slightly more than a gallon of petroleum to make ethanol, then it uses HALF the amount of petroleum, not more.

[MikeM]

Originally Posted by Richard
Now you are down to,not only does Detroit have their own little special gas pumps like nowhere else in the country...

No, I never said that. Nice try. Detroit does not have "special pumps". Regions where E15 is sold have special pumps, like the pump in this story.

Update : Encountered my first E15 station [in Ohio, since Michigan still only has less than a dozen] and lo and behold, E15 had its own pump, hose, selector, and price. Meanwhile, another summer with E15 sales waivers in place, and still no E15 stations in Detroit.

[Richard]

Update : Encountered my first E15 station [in Ohio, since Michigan still only has less than a dozen] and lo and behold, E15 had its own pump, hose, selector, and price. Meanwhile, another summer with E15 sales waivers in place, and still no E15 stations in Detroit.

I am still paying $4.59 for 93 octane. WaWA $4.89 in the hood

Open the pump up,they just added an extension to accommodate an another pump handle to incorporate it into the dispensing and billing system.

There is not enough room in that box in order to incorporate and entirely new pumping and piping system and how much residual E15 is going to be left in the lines when you choose a different blend and who is going to know the long term effects it will have on unsuspecting buyers?

Look around next time you are there and see if you see a 30 x 50 section of new pavement where they put in new 5000 gallon plus tank in the ground.

Corn belt states pushed for it,Michigan used to one of the top corn producers in the country but with the shift of politics,they are not even on the radar anymore.

Once they figure out away to incorporate it into a save the planet theme it will be everywhere,regardless of what it actually does.

But even at that what are you fuel economy numbers verses the two different grades ? Not really saving much as it burns faster,so the economics of it to the consumer is more physiological,kinda like when the speedometers maxed out at 80

People thought that was the limit of their engine so they drove slower as to not risk blowing up their engine thus saving fuel burn during an energy crises.

Thats why you can never say never,it’s all based on which way the wind blows.

At least one is safe in going the 50/50 route.

If it was a pissing match,I could buy a station in Detroit tomorrow and throw some E15 in,but at the end of the day it is politics that drives it,it’s backed by corn producing states and the politicians implement it in order to gain votes.

If the Michigan governor decided to cozy up to the corn farmers,you would see E15 coming out of everybody’s ears in Michigan.

They removed all of the stops in the state legislation so all it takes is that political smile and it is implemented tomorrow.

[Franksgoodnephew]

My Ram pickup can but I WONT! Degrades the seals, and causes too much heat in the engine.

[Zacha341]

One of my cars is an slightly older but otherwise strong running Volkswagen. I'll not be putting nothing in it outside of the 97 required. I've enough real and faux warning lights popping on and off the display. Not taking any chances!

[MikeM]

One of my cars is an slightly older but otherwise strong running Volkswagen. I'll not be putting into it outside of the 97 required. I've enough real and faux warning lights popping on and off the display. Not taking any chances!

A whole 'nother summer of E15 waivers and a year later, Michigan has two more E15 stations. Still not an issue, lol.

[Richard]

^ lol living in today,that’s 2 more then last year.

When they first built a car,they sold one,then 2 and now …..

What do you think is going to happen when the whole EV deadline crashes ? They are still going to want to save the planet and the quickest and easiest way to save face is to push E15.

The thing is you guys depend on exporting 90% of your goods to foreign markets which makes your economy dependent on the political whims of tariffs,you guys have dropped down on the list of corn producers.

The reason those corn growing states are pushing E15 is because people will always need fuel,Even when China does not need Michigan cherries,so those states have an economy based on local production and not dependent of the whims of foreign trade.

I do not like E15 nor would I ever use it but when you look at strictly a states self supporting economics basis,it’s hard to ignore.

[MikeM]

^ lol living in today,that’s 2 more then last year.

I do not like E15 nor would I ever use it but when you look at strictly a states self supporting economics basis,it’s hard to ignore.

At that rate, all 4500 gas stations in Michigan will be selling E15 by the year 6700. Like I said on page one: not worried about E15. Can't buy it here even if I wanted to but my car can handle it, nonetheless. No diatribe needed.

[Richard]

At that rate, all 4500 gas stations in Michigan will be selling E15 by the year 6700. Like I said on page one: not worried about E15. Can't buy it here even if I wanted to but my car can handle it, nonetheless. No diatribe needed.

diatribe

a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something:

My apologies if I offended E15s feelings,at least I did not blow it up in a combustion chamber and spit it out the back,maybe there is a local E15 support group there one can recommend ?

Good to know that you,one person out of 10 million in the state,are personally accommodated.

[EASTSIDER BALDUCK]

I vaguely recall someone advising {for old cars, lawn mowers, snowblowers, etc.} to buy gas at a marina. Boat engines typically don't handle ethanol well. It had something to do with ethanol dissolving plastic parts over time.

I have no idea whether that's true. Can anyone confirm that?

Proximity to water[[lakes/rivers) moist air and hydroscopic ethanol makes milk. Engines do not run on milk.