Will You USE Blended Ethanol Gas in Your Car? Will it help?

[Richard]

^ so why does it bother you so much ? Are your lives really that petty ?

In the bigger picture others have bombs raining down on them,on the list of things to give a crap about,10 anonymous people triggered about post length on a web site ranks at a level 56 stories below who cares.

[Vic01]

...There are at least 10 posters that have suggested that to you remove the fluff, which you have ignored. Also you have issues with mixing homonyms. Not a good sign for getting your points across.

On the other hand, if those same 10 posters would simply hit the "ignore" button... they wouldn't even notice the "fluff". It works wonders

[Richard]

See how easy that is.

Now if those 10 posters are really interested in the topic they can go visit 15 different sites and spend even more time reading hundreds of additional paragraphs in order to get the same information they could have got in one place and at a fairly safe site.

Because that is what I did,compiled multiple levels of information into 15 paragraphs in one place and provided links for verification to as what it was posted.

Your not canceling me out by blocking me because you do not like my political leanings,you are just creating more time and work for yourself if you are really interested in the subject.

But then again there are those that prefer a population that takes everything at face value and does not peal back the layers in order to get the real picture,it makes them much easier to manipulate,and there is a percentage of the population that prefers it that way,because it is what they are comfortable with.

Some keep making threads personal,I do not care about E15,I already knew of the dangers of E10,I do not care about the price of gas or inflation because I am a business,all costs get passed down to my customers.

But it is not about me personally and I am well aware that things like that impact a large part of the population and makes the country a weaker place as a whole.

The only thing those 10 posters did was tell the rest of the world that the only thing they care about is themselves in the bigger picture and they expect everything they come across to be tailored to their personal liking.

I get a kick out of all of this - we going to make these evil corporations pay by implementing these polices,the cost to implement those policies is passed down to you the consumer,so the only person you are making pay is yourself and driving your standard of living lower.

In 1970 the price of an average new car was $3500 and represented 1/3 of the average household income,in 2022 the average cost of a new car is $52,000 and represents 54% of the average household income.

Auto manufacturers are still in business turning billions in revenue,the only thing that has been changed with policies implemented is the cost to purchase a new car has increased while the ability for the average family to purchase one has decreased.

They did not build crap cars that were little value after 100,000 miles because they were crap builders,there was no need to build a car that lasts 200,000 miles because at the time a majority of the population could afford to buy a new car every three years,and that’s what they did.

[canuck]

Fit weren’t fir guys like Ralph Nader or Phil Edmunston in Canada, companies might still be gouging consumers at 35% of income versus now, with more longevity and resale value. Competition took care of the rest. In particular, Toyota kicked other manufacturers asses worldwide, to which they needed to reply, albeit awkwardly. Cars coming into NA come from far shores nowadays, he quality has gone up, and people expect a better product because good old lefties brought it on. Lol

[Richard]

Ya know you can go to some crap hole country,out in the sticks that only has one power line that the entire community,and visit the one little local store and 90% of the time you will see a 1940s/1950s made in America,most cases in Detroit,refrigerator still humming along doing what it was intended to do.

The influx of imports back then filled the needs for people that recognized value for the money and did not fall into that category of buying a new car every 3 years,it was still a major necessity to have transportation and why buy something 3 times when it was only necessary to buy it once.

Lefties also recognize value for the money,no different then the righties although now I think people have leaned away from that concept and are as a majority only look at the immediate costs.

That is why China imports 3 billion in cheap crap into this county compared to our 100 million we export to them. Not exact numbers but the jist of it.

When we really look at E15 does it really accomplish the goal that it is presented as,driving the cost down at the pump,on the surface you save 10c per gallon,sounds wonderful,but as I have presented it will actually cost the consumer more across the board then they are already paying.

We are lucky as Americans with all of this free flow of money comparatively,many think that those were the good old days and families picked cash off of the trees in the back yard,but they did not,they also struggled to make ends meet and went through the trails and tribulations of the economy shifts,for survival they recognized value for money.

Close the door,were you born in a barn,do not stand in front of the fridge with the door open looking for something,shut off the light when you leave the room,stop running the water for 30 minutes in order to brush your teeth etc.

There are so many products out there that society has told people that they must have,that they really do not need and people wonder why they cannot afford anything.

I paid $450 for my phone 1 year ago,now the screen driver thing is going bad,$250 to fix that,that’s $700 just in a stupid phone,I paid $40 for my first car my mortgage in the early 90s was only $385 per month,for a house.

People have a mountain of opportunities to waste money on things already,no need to implement even more policies sold on,it will save you money when it actually cost you more.

Same thing is going to happen with EVs,the only thing you are doing is changing the way a car moves forward,they still need the infrastructure they roll on,the materials they are produced with and the labor to build them.

Cities and states are already implementing and additional $150 per year EV registration fee and looking at tax sur-charges at the charging stations,they still have to replace the revenue they are losing from the gas taxes in order to support the infrastructure.

I kinda think EVs as they become more popular,are going to be more expensive then ICE to operate and purchase,because demand will drive up the cost of production,even worse if government budgets get tight and the incentives dry up.

The only way to drop prices at the pump is to produce more oil then the demand,gluts drive prices down,as it is going they are looking at ways to decrease production of fossil fuels,which drives prices up at the pump and also as a side effect every other thing we purchase.

Its the cost of implementation that is what is driving people into the poor house.

Corporate greed - Is it not the goal for the worker to also seek as much as possible for services rendered?

When was the last time you saw a worker that said,I am making $200k a year but I only need $100k a year to survive comfortably,so just pay me the $100k otherwise I feel greedy.

The term corporate greed is one made up by the socialists because they think everybody should be distributed the same amount of money per month regardless of their input in society.

But you will see none of them distributing their weekly pay evenly amongst their neighbors.

And you will see a lot of politicians pushing a socialist agenda as they live in multi million dollar homes with hundred million dollar stock portfolios.

You see the new stimulus package being implemented after the COVID one wanes down,allow a war to start,it pumps billions back into the economy in replacing all of the materials needed to fight it.

[MikeM]

And it's official: Nationwide Fuel Waiver Allowing E15 Gasoline [[pdf)

A rolling 20-day waiver to continue until fuel supply issues ease. Likely to be challenged in court, as was Trump's lifting of the E15 ban.

Still won't affect Detroit with its 7.0 RVP restriction, nor the rest of Michigan, where nary an E15 pump can be found, lol.

[MikeM]

If you are in Detroit, here are the nearest E15 stations if you want to save a dime, lol:

Anew Fuel Station, Zeeland
BP, Bad Axe
BP, Adrian
Carbon Green BioEnergy, Lake Odessa
Freeport General Store, Freeport
Ignash Petroleum, Kinde
McCormick Fuel, Montague
NuVu Fuels, Ionia
NuVu Fuels, Rockford
The Depot, Edmore

Or...there are a couple in the Toledo area.

[Richard]

Make sure you update the list when the summer blend is introduced in June and as stated any gas station that currently sells 88 octane is already able to dispense E15.

Lol

[MikeM]

Make sure you update the list when the summer blend is introduced in June and as stated any gas station that currently sells 88 octane is already able to dispense E15.

Lol

Hell, I'll give them until July 1st so they have time to update their websites. I know the jobbers who don't offer it now will be rushing out to install new underground tanks and pumps based on a twenty day waiver that could not be renewed at any given time.

[jcole]

You still don't seem to understand that only a handful of places sell Unleaded 88 in Michigan, so here is a pretty picture for you

Make sure you update the list when the summer blend is introduced in June and as stated any gas station that currently sells 88 octane is already able to dispense E15.

Lol

[Richard]

You still don't seem to understand that only a handful of places sell Unleaded 88 in Michigan, so here is a pretty picture for you

If you own a gas station and I tell you I will give you an additional .35 cents per gallon over and above what you are already making per gallon sale,what are you going to push to sell more of?

Newer gas stations are already set up to sell the product,it does not matter what previous octane was dispensed from that pump before.

The reason they pick the current 88 is because you cannot eliminate premium with corvettes and hellcats floating around,they will take the lowest grade pump and dispense from that.

If one has the argument that every gas station in the city in Detroit is over 30 years old,then it would be plausible that nobody would be able to sell it.

But when you are offering the gas station cash back for every gallon sold,as a business you would be stupid not to sell it,it’s free money for something that you were already selling anyways.

The economics of it is the definition of insanity,pay a service station .35 per gallon so the customer can save .10 per gallon ,does that make sense to you as a taxpayer?

Weather you use it or not,it will increase your grocery bill more then it has already increased.

The discussion related to the actual E15 is really irrelevant,it’s the secondary impact that will lighten your wallet,it does matter if you use it or not,it’s intent as proposed is to save money at the pump but what good does it do if you save .10 at the pump if it cost you $5.00 to save it?

If you want I will trade you a $5 bill for a $10 bill then give you back $2 and you can say you saved $2.

I do not think you are that crazy.

The idea behind it is to increase the supply without drilling more by watering down the existing supply.

Like when we were kids robbing our parents liquor cabinet then putting water in to make it look like nothing was removed.

Supply and demand dictates prices,the way to bring the price down at the pump is to increase the supply so it is a glut.

Imagine what would happen if our current leader stood up and said - drill baby drill,so his solution was to water down the current supply in order to extend it,it does not matter whose pocket makes up the difference and he is banking on what we are seeing,very few will look past - wow I am saving .10 per gallon if I use this.

[Gistok]

You still don't seem to understand that only a handful of places sell Unleaded 88 in Michigan, so here is a pretty picture for you

Wow... not many places at all. So this thread is sort of moot for Michigan...

[Richard]

Wow... not many places at all. So this thread is sort of moot for Michigan...

Do you like green eggs and ham?

That Sam I am
That Sam I am
I do not like green eggs and ham


You will have to excuse me ,sometimes I forget to bring it down to your level in reply’s

[MikeM]

Yes, Gistok, despite the 89 posts.

[Richard]

And despite the state slamming the tax credit legislation through in less then a week when they have not been able to fix a pothole in 4 years sorry 6 years,because they also do not think it will happen.

Why would they do that if there will be no gas stations selling it?

Your argument is based on going outside in July and there is no snow on the ground,while saying no snow so we will not have a winter.

Then you give yourself trophies for that analysis.

Like a gas pump is going to know the difference between E10 and E15,my bad I forgot,Detroit has special gas stations that nobody else in the world has,carry on.

Of course you guys may very well be recognizing that with the moves you have been making in the last 2 years,by the time June rolls around everybody will be so broke they will not be able to afford a car to even put gas in.

Maybe that’s why despite all the evidence and proof pointing to it happening or doing everything they can to make it happen,you are doubling down on it will not happen,it could also be you just do not have enough faith in your peoples agenda,that you do not even believe what they are shoveling.

If you do not believe them,why did you waste everybody’s time and money electing them?

[Gistok]

And despite the state slamming the tax credit legislation through in less then a week when they have not been able to fix a pothole in 4 years sorry 6 years,because they also do not think it will happen.

For someone that doesn't live here, you really do like saying things that are not true a lot about our state.

Here are 23 pages of construction closures... and this is only by the state [MDOT], and not even the county work done by Michigan's 83 counties...

https://mdotjboss.state.mi.us/MiDrive/construction

[Richard]

For someone that doesn't live here, you really do like saying things that are not true a lot about our state.

Here are 23 pages of construction closures... and this is only by the state [MDOT], and not even the county work done by Michigan's 83 counties...

https://mdotjboss.state.mi.us/MiDrive/construction

You really have to shut down an entire road or freeway in order to fix a pothole,we just use 6 supervisors and one guy with a shovel and a truck.

They put up a little orange triangle sign that shows a picture of a guy with a shovel and people just drive around,no need to shut the road down during the 20 minutes it takes to fix it,excluding breaks.

No wonder it takes so long.

Unless of course if you completely twisted my words in order to fit your narrative your reply would make sense,but then you would be doing the same thing as your leaders are,thinking everybody is really that stupid.

It is my fault though,when I mentioned potholes I should have clearly defined what a pothole actually is,so it would not get confused with major road construction,I figured most would know the difference,I guess I was wrong.

You are right,I do not live there,you guys may define a pothole similar to resurfacing a 26 mile stretch of freeway,where we would define it as a hole in the road that should not be there.

We also define a pothole as a road hazard,so when you call it in,it is repaired within 24 hours,because we hold our elected accountable,if I hit a pothole and it damages my car,the city pays to get it repaired because it is their job to maintain the roads,that’s why we pay taxes.

To clarify our definition of a pot hole - A hole in the surface of the roadway usually round shaped like a pot - pothole

A pot is a circular container usually used in cooking,it holds the portion within so it can be cooked without placing the food directly on the heat source,you may just open a can of soup and pour it directly on the heat source,but we are a bit more civilized.

Pot not to be confused with nowadays is referred to as weed,Mary Jane,marjuiana,wakey tabacky and numerous other names,that would have to be consumed in massive quantities in order to confuse a pothole with major road construction.

So it is not actually a hole in the road filled with pot.

Maybe if you had not spent 4 years resisting you would have actually collected the fed infrastructure funds,to fix the potholes,but now not only do you still have them,you have to pay to fix them out of your pocket 100%.

I guess sense I do not live there,I have to thank you for resisting though and doing your part to keep the national debt lower,so next time you drive over a bone jarring pothole just tell yourself,hey it was worth it ,as you navigate on to the next one.

Now I know,you guys have special 25 mile long potholes and special gas stations that nobody else in the world has and 1 otter that shows up every 100 years.

Its been a very informative week for me.

So what do you guys call that hole in the road,if not a pothole,a road surface vent? It’s supposed to be there by design ?

You live there betcha you cannot even tell me how many potholes have been filled in the city of Detroit in the last 30 days,without searching.

If you cannot what is your excuse,because you do live there.

Go ahead and say it - but Richard I do not live in the city of Detroit so how would I know that information.

My reply would be - Gistok I do not live there either but I know it is a major issue with the residents and by all accounts there are even more of them 6 years later and sense 4 years were wasted on resist but now there have been more funds in the name of COVID recovery dedicated to curing the potholes from COVID you should be able to tell me how many have been fixed in the last 30 days.

I forgot there was a rat out a pothole thread because city and state officials need you to tell them where they are because they do not drive the roads themselves or apparently care enough to find them on their own.

The simplest thing would be to think of them as republican right wing nazi non shot taking potholes and it would justify shutting down the entire state and they would be fixed within 2 days.

[MikeM]

And despite the state slamming the tax credit legislation through in less then a week when they have not been able to fix a pothole in 4 years sorry 6 years,because they also do not think it will happen.

Lol, the bill you linked? The one introduced by a Republican? With no co-sponsors? Back in January before the administration proposed lifting the E15 ban? The one that has been languishing in the agriculture committee ever since?

Like a gas pump is going to know the difference between E10 and E15,my bad I forgot,Detroit has special gas stations that nobody else in the world has,carry on.

Actually, it does. If you'd bother to read instead of typing so much, you would find the tank and pump material requirements, approved makes and models, as well as the requirements for record keeping, labeling, insurance, etc.

And no, Detroit doesn't have special gas stations - no one ever said that. It's the E15 stations that are special. What I did claim, is that Detroit has its own gasoline RVP requirements, as required by its state implementation plan to meet the national air quality standards.

[Richard]

Lol, the bill you linked? The one introduced by a Republican? With no co-sponsors? Back in January before the administration proposed lifting the E15 ban? The one that has been languishing in the agriculture committee ever since?

Actually, it does. If you'd bother to read instead of typing so much, you would find the tank and pump material requirements, approved makes and models, as well as the requirements for record keeping, labeling, insurance, etc.

And no, Detroit doesn't have special gas stations - no one ever said that. It's the E15 stations that are special. What I did claim, is that Detroit has its own gasoline RVP requirements, as required by its state implementation plan to meet the national air quality standards.[/COLOR]

And here you are doubling down on spreading fake and false information.

5 Conclusions
This study found that significant changes to safety testing standards have incorporated fuel blends with more than 10% volume ethanol. This has led to many refueling equipment products compatible with E15. A station owner can compare its equipment records against the compatibility list in the appendices of this report to determine if there is a need to update or upgrade any equipment to sell E15. The majority of tanks are compatible as existing pipe manufacturers have had listing for E100 for many years, UL-listed E25 dispensers and retrofit kits are available, as is hanging hardware [[a combination of E25 and E85 UL-listed equipment). Many manufacturers’ models, as well as other UST equipment including fill equipment, leak detection, overfill prevention, and containment, are compatible with E15.
A literature review was conducted to determine if there were any negative impacts during the multi-year deployment of E10 nationwide. No incidents of E10 causing releases were identified, and no infrastructure industry experts suggested that there were widespread issues with E10.

https://afdc.energy.gov/files/u/publ...astructure.pdf

1. What are the EPA’s equipment requirements for storing and selling E15? Can my existing tanks handle E15?

The EPA requires that equipment storing and dispensing E15 carry either a UL listing or a manufacturer’s warranty. Either one can fulfill the requirement on its own. All steel tanks carry a manufacturer’s warranty and are therefore approved for storing E15. Almost all double-walled fiberglass tanks installed in the past 30 years carry warranties for storing E15, too. And for any retailers still unsure as to whether their equipment is compatible, The Petroleum Equipment Institute has a library of warranty information to help clear up any confusion.
2. What dispensers are approved for selling E15? Do I need special pumps?

In most cases, retailers will not need new pumps to dispense E15. All Wayne dispensers are compatible with ethanol levels up to E15’s. Additionally, all Gilbarco dispensers from 2008 or newer are approved for E15.

Correcting misinformation on compatibility is a critical part of expanding E15’s footprint, and Growth Energy’s Market Development team stands ready to assist interested retailers in navigating this process.

http://ethanolproducer.com/articles/...%20E15’s.

This was your post #33

But you won't because A) most stations don't have the infrastructure to deliver it. Of course you don't know that since you live in Russia and have never visited Detroit, and B) you don't have to stick the E15 pump in your tank.

……………..

You posted a false statement in a pathetic attempt to make me look bad and you are still trying to double down on that.Then threw in the ignorant remark about Russia or never visiting Detroit.

You were not concerned about posting factual information in order to help others,you took a false statement and used it to push a stupid political and personal statement while making yourself look like a fool in the process.

So now all you have to do is provide your information where you derived your statements from that contradicts every other expert in the field including the U.S. governments own study.

Nobody has to check their records for anything,any gas station owner knows full well if their tanks and other equipment has been replaced in the last 30 years,because all of that equipment was certified to surpass E15 over 30 years ago.

There are no gas stations in the city or region of Detroit that mix fuel onsite so they do not have to change any equipment related to that.


I will be waiting for you to provide the information that backs up your claim that E15 stations are special.


Gasoline falls under federal regulations,as far as the deal worked out between the City Of Detroit and the state?

Is your party really going to stand up and say - FU Biden and admit they are implementing something that will actually increase pollution levels?

Then your party has to admit to the entire country that not only have they created policies that are driving everybody into the poorhouse,started WW3,and now want to smog everybody to death with E15 so people can save $1 per fill up ?

You need to spend less time worrying about republicans and more time grabbing on to the rim of the toilet as your party circles down the drain with all of these blatant self destructive measures.

Everybody know he created this mess from day 1 in office when he shut down the production in this country.

Who would have ever thought reduced production,increases prices.

That’s why Shell is reporting record profits,all you guys did was pander to the oil companies while running a fake save the planet narrative,they are being rewarded off of the misery of millions of Americans that are paying the price.

Your own party members that dictate energy policy,own 93 million in fossil fuel stocks,when do you think they make more money,when it sells for $2 per gallon or when it sells for $6 per gallon.

Your own party is bending you over,and double charging you for the petro grease and the best you can come up with is - you have never visited Detroit.

No wonder the socialists wakos have highjacked your party,you make it easy.

You do not recognize the direct correlation between companies showing record profits while the standard of living for all Americans has dropped to 40 year lows in the last 2 years ?

We are going after those evil corporations ,translates into ,we only have a few years in office so we need to pump up those corporations so we can max out our stock value as quick as possible.

The only reason for a corporation to exist is to make money for its shareholders,when your party is invested in fossil fuel as shareholders,do you really think they are going to do anything that reduces the share values?

Sure at about the same time everybody walks up to their employers and tells them they will take a 50% pay cut because they are nice people.

[MikeM]

TLDR

I leave town for a few days, I should have known Karl would go on a rant. But, he admits it's really about making him look bad - that's what is really important, isn't it?

I did see one mention of Detroit in there: "Gasoline falls under federal regulations,as far as the deal worked out between the City Of Detroit and the state?"

No, between the state and the federal government:

Approval and Promulgation of Air Quality Implementation Plans; Michigan; Control of Gasoline Volatility

I'll report back next month with the increased count of E15 stations, lol.

[canuck]

TLDR

I leave town for a few days, I should have known Karl would go on a rant. But, he admits it's really about making him look bad - that's what is really important, isn't it?

I did see one mention of Detroit in there: "Gasoline falls under federal regulations,as far as the deal worked out between the City Of Detroit and the state?"

No, between the state and the federal government:

Approval and Promulgation of Air Quality Implementation Plans; Michigan; Control of Gasoline Volatility

I'll report back next month with the increased count of E15 stations, lol.

You have to admit though, he is entertaining … to himself.

[oladub]

This is not necessarily political. I just wanted to find out how much gasoline costs per mile. The average cost for a gallon of regular gasoline in the U.S. is $4.52. The average miles per gallon of our auto and SUV fleet in 2020 was 25.4 mpg.

$4.52/25.4mpg= 17.8 cents/mile or $17.80/100 miles.

[Richard]

Now they are predicting $6 per gallon which at this time it does make an EV cheaper per mile.

The true cost per mile for an EV is based on many different inputs into the equation,verses pulling up to the pump and putting gasoline in.

That will change as the cost of fuel supply to the power plant goes up,California is also tinkering with a three tier charging rate system,the cheapest being charge from home,off peak.

Peak is the key word,as buildings and the things that draw the biggest loads like the A/C systems become more efficient,moving millions to the grid with night charging will change peak times.

Power companies are going to do what they do when they know they have you locked in.

That’s why it is really hard to have the debate as to if an EV makes economic sense long term.

As the price of gas rises,so does the interest in EVs but that can change pretty quick.

England has always had fuel prices double of what ours are if not more,but nobody there is rushing to switch to EVs,but their average MPG is double of what ours is,has been for a very long time.

[MikeM]

Fifth waiver for summertime E15 sales issued July 19th. Two months now of permitted E15 sales yet still only 10 stations in Michigan selling it. Lol

[MikeM]

Fight to lift US E15 sales restrictions creates strange bedfellows among oil, biofuel groups

In a rare move, oil, biofuel and farm groups are all on the same page, rallying together to champion swift action on legislation that would do away with a summertime ban on sales of a gasoline blend containing 15% ethanol.

Oil refiners and biofuel producers have oft been at odds over regulations setting the amount of renewable fuel that must be mixed with gasoline and diesel each year. But on the issue of E15, they were united in support of a legislative solution to inconsistent fuel volatility regulations that have created barriers to fuel marketers and retailers offering E15 to US drivers.


While E10, which contains 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline, is widely accepted and available from retailers across the country year-round, current law prohibits the sale of E15 in conventional gasoline markets, which make up about 70% of the US gasoline market, from June 1 to Sept. 15 due to Environmental Protection Agency restrictions on air pollution from gasoline.


"Though oil and biofuel groups have fought like cats and dogs over the years, they have a common goal of limiting uncertainty and curtailing litigation expenses," Corey Lavinsky, global manager of biofuels analytics at S&P Global Commodity Insights, said Nov. 22. "Proposed legislation needs to overcome many hurdles before it becomes law. E15 use has expanded considerably in 2022, but laws restricting its use in the summer remain the status quo until new ones are passed."