Will You USE Blended Ethanol Gas in Your Car? Will it help?

[MikeM]

My god, you guys are a bunch of rambling old-fogeys.

Dude, back on topic: stations around here aren't going to replace their 87 or 89 octane pumps for an 88/E15 blend just because the administration is granting a temporary exemption to the summertime E15 restriction. You live where they commonly include E15 nozzles on the pump [[currently about 1.5% of the stations nationwide), you might get a break this summer. You don't? Don't hold your breath.

[Richard]

Lol maybe us old-fogeys have been around long enough to realize it’s not that simple.

You youngsters should watch your pro nouns with the Dude and Guys thingyou do not know what we identify as,personally I can be a he that identifies as a she but prefers to be called a them,see us old fogeys do not wonder why you youngsters seem so confused,it’s pretty clear.

We also down south do not use summer and winter blends,which is not actually a blend,it’s an additive package that is poured in the tank when the tankers refuel and no have not seen E15 as of yet.

I posted the tax credit that was passed into reality,E15 is not a temporary fix,if it was there would have been no need,it was already pre planned,when was the last time law makers every came out with something like that before even it was announced to switch to E15 so the switch was decided at least 1 year ago.

No way they could have wrote that law or figured out the tax credits and implemented it in a matter of months.

Before the gas price increase.

For all we know the price increases could have been deliberate in order to do the E15 switch as an excuse.Like I also posted,new EPA restrictions are coming out and companies do not have the millions it takes to comply,so they have to have work around in order for production to be stable.

Mid terms are coming up and consumers are going to driven by the economy,so you will see a lot of things that will pop up that look good on paper but solves nothing or creates long term bad results.

Granted we,myself included did go off track,and we rely on you younger whippersnappers to bring us back in line,but you should really do it with something more credible then,it will never happen because gas stations do not have the infrastructure.

Unlike you youngsters who are easily manipulated,old fogeys have been around the block a few times and have a few more life experiences under their belts,not so easily fooled.

Gas prices went up because 129 out of 135 refineries went idle in the U.S. because of COVID and low demand,COVID is over and it takes time for a refinery to start ramping up production,so it would have been a temporary supply and demand issue,there was no need to create a solution for a problem that did not exist.

The problem was not with prices at the pump,the problem comes in if those 129 refineries have to shut down in 2023 because of newly implemented EPA pollution guidelines on the refineries.

So they threw them a lifeline and called it E15.

The president could have had the EPA extend the deadline,but then he would have lost political points with the save the planet crowd and they would be in an even bigger rampage under the claim a that he was walking back in saving the planet.

So they did it in a round about way that saves face,it’s politics.

They are doing the same thing with refineries as they did with the steel mills,they cannot directly shut them down,but they sure can regulate them out of existence.

I bought my Jaguar 8 years ago for $500,the PO brought it to 3 different specialist mechanics because it would not run and none of them could get it running.

Granted it took me 3 days but what it ended up being was the fuel separation problem,they tried cranking it which filled the fuel injectors with the separated mixture,which corroded them shut quickly.

So I changed the injection rails,drained and refilled the tank and it runs,the only thing I have spent on the car has been normal maintenance items,the PO took a $10,000 bath on the sale at the time.

Politicians brilliant ideas that end up costing consumers millions.

[MikeM]

I can't wade through your stream of consciousness. A few points from skimming your diary:

Seasonal blends are not created by an additive to the tanker truck. Those additives are used to change generic gasoline into Shell gasoline or Marathon gasoline or Exxon gasoline.

Seasonal differences in gasoline are met by either limiting RVP or using reformulated gasoline, depending on the nature of pollution in the affected region. Detroit has to use 7.8 RVP in summer or be subject to an RFG requirement like we used to be in years past.

There is no collusion or conspiracy to increase prices by producers, traders, refiners, et al, to speed the introduction of a product they don't produce or sell. Don't be ridiculous. E15 is not a lifeline to a refinery - it's 15% less gasoline they can sell.

129 out of 135 refineries did not shut down during covid. Six of the 135 refineries closed, leaving 129 operating. Refinery inputs decreased no more than 21% at the low point in spring of 2020. Three of the refineries closed had a combined capacity of less than half of Marathon Detroit. One of them explode and burned beyond a salvageable condition. Three of the closing refineries are being turned into renewable diesel refineries.

[Richard]

I can't wade through your stream of consciousness. A few points from skimming your diary:

Seasonal blends are not created by an additive to the tanker truck. Those additives are used to change generic gasoline into Shell gasoline or Marathon gasoline or Exxon gasoline.

Seasonal differences in gasoline are met by either limiting RVP or using reformulated gasoline, depending on the nature of pollution in the affected region. Detroit has to use 7.8 RVP in summer or be subject to an RFG requirement like we used to be in years past.

There is no collusion or conspiracy to increase prices by producers, traders, refiners, et al, to speed the introduction of a product they don't produce or sell. Don't be ridiculous. E15 is not a lifeline to a refinery - it's 15% less gasoline they can sell.

129 out of 135 refineries did not shut down during covid. Six of the 135 refineries closed, leaving 129 operating. Refinery inputs decreased no more than 21% at the low point in spring of 2020. Three of the refineries closed had a combined capacity of less than half of Marathon Detroit. One of them explode and burned beyond a salvageable condition. Three of the closing refineries are being turned into renewable diesel refineries.

Now you are down to,not only does Detroit have their own little special gas pumps like nowhere else in the country,the marathon refinery only produces gasoline specifically for Detroit.

The gasoline is shipped all over the country,there is no way marathon blends locally for other states because there are different temperatures spans in every state,they would have to blend 50 different batches.

The finial blend is done at local terminals with butane,it’s all about stopping expansion caused by heat expansion.


As a result of several U.S. refinery closures in 2020, U.S. operable atmospheric crude oil distillation capacity, the primary measure of refinery capacity in the United States, dropped 4.5% to a total of 18.1 million barrels per calendar day [[b/cd) at the start of 2021. The end-of-year 2020 total is 0.8 million b/cd less than the 19.0 million b/cd of refining capacity at the start of 2020. According to the data in our annual Refinery Capacity Report, the beginning of 2021 marks the lowest annual capacity figure to start the year since 2015. Based on information reported to us in our recent update, U.S. refining capacity will not expand significantly during 2021.
At the beginning of 2021, 129 refineries were either operating or idle in the United States [[excluding U.S. territories), down from 135 operable refineries listed at the beginning of 2020. The additional refinery closures in the 2021 Refinery Capacity Report largely reflect the impact of responses to COVID-19 on the U.S. refining sector.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=48636

Covid did not go away from one day to the next,the idled refineries could have started to ramp up production as the states started releasing restrictions,common sense dictates that when people come off of house arrest they are going to drive again which would increase the demand.

I agree with you the gas refineries never manipulate supply in order to increase prices,because they are the poster child of honest business practices.

I bought the Brooklyn bridge during the pandemic and am now short on cash,I can sell it to you cheap.


The U.S. consumes 8.80 million barrels of oil per day,or 365 million gallons of gasoline per day,the 6 that shut down contributed less then 1 million barrels per day ,they had little impact on the bigger picture.

You have to understand the difference between an idled refinery verses a shut down refinery,my bad I assumed,because it is no different then an automobile manufacturer I figured it would be common there.

If I am not mistaken,it is 2022 so they have had over 1.5 years to start ramping up production,but they have not.

On the E15,so explain to me how the existing refineries are going to be able to meet the 2023 EPA guidelines and spend billions without jacking the price of gas up to $30 a gallon without the use of the tax credits?

Are you thinking they are the only corporation in the world that does not pass added cost down to the consumer?

I already have an additional $25 a month fuel charge on top of a $15 per month green energy pre charge added to my electric bill starting 3 months ago,not sure why people have it in their mind the evil corporations are going to absorb all of this out of the kindness of their hearts.

It’s not a conspiracy theory,crap rolls downhill,who do you think is at the bottom of the hill?

I would love to see every refinery shut down in 2023 because of a mandated EPA regulation,the current administrations party would hold no office for the next 50 years.

Thats what happens when you put the cart before the horse just to appease a minority,I paid $5 per gallon today,not that I care because I just pass down the increased amount down to my customers,and they pass it down to the person in the street that is struggling to pay the rent.

See how that works?

19 food processing plants have also burned or exploded this year,they will not be able to feed the country and process the corn for E15 at this point,we are heading for a shit storm come fall even worse if they cannot roll the E15 tax credits over come 2023.

The 2 things this country runs on,food and fuel,is going to be in short supply.

I guess the silver lining in all of this, is we so far do not have bombs raining down on us from the WW3 that you guys started,so $5 per gallon becomes insignificant in the grand scope of thingsz

[MikeM]

Now you are down to,not only does Detroit have their own little special gas pumps like nowhere else in the country...

No, I never said that. Nice try. Detroit does not have "special pumps". Regions where E15 is sold have special pumps, like the pump in this story.

...the marathon refinery only produces gasoline specifically for Detroit.The gasoline is shipped all over the country,there is no way marathon blends locally for other states because there are different temperatures spans in every state,they would have to blend 50 different batches.

The finial blend is done at local terminals with butane,it’s all about stopping expansion caused by heat expansion.

So much wrong here, where to start. The gasoline refineries produce is mostly either CBOB or RBOB [[or CARBOB in California). Both are produced in varying octanes with the final octane rating raised by blending with ethanol after arriving at the terminal. [[Butane is not mixed at the terminal: butane content in the gasoline pool is reduced to around 2% in summer due to its high RVP. Butane is dumped back into the gasoline blending pool in winter if economics make it more attractive

As a result of several U.S. refinery closures in 2020, U.S. operable atmospheric crude oil distillation capacity, the primary measure of refinery capacity in the United States, dropped 4.5% to a total of 18.1 million barrels per calendar day [[b/cd) at the start of 2021. The end-of-year 2020 total is 0.8 million b/cd less than the 19.0 million b/cd of refining capacity at the start of 2020. According to the data in our annual Refinery Capacity Report, the beginning of 2021 marks the lowest annual capacity figure to start the year since 2015. Based on information reported to us in our recent update, U.S. refining capacity will not expand significantly during 2021.

At the beginning of 2021, 129 refineries were either operating or idle in the United States [[excluding U.S. territories), down from 135 operable refineries listed at the beginning of 2020. The additional refinery closures in the 2021 Refinery Capacity Report largely reflect the impact of responses to COVID-19 on the U.S. refining sector.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=48636

Covid did not go away from one day to the next,the idled refineries could have started to ramp up production as the states started releasing restrictions,common sense dictates that when people come off of house arrest they are going to drive again which would increase the demand.

I agree with you the gas refineries never manipulate supply in order to increase prices,because they are the poster child of honest business practices.

I bought the Brooklyn bridge during the pandemic and am now short on cash,I can sell it to you cheap.


The U.S. consumes 8.80 million barrels of oil per day,or 365 million gallons of gasoline per day,the 6 that shut down contributed less then 1 million barrels per day ,they had little impact on the bigger picture.

You have to understand the difference between an idled refinery verses a shut down refinery,my bad I assumed,because it is no different then an automobile manufacturer I figured it would be common there.

If I am not mistaken,it is 2022 so they have had over 1.5 years to start ramping up production,but they have not.

I don't know what you are trying to prove there. Like I said, refinery runs dropped to a low point in May 2020, from a rolling 5-year average of just under 17 mmb/d to 13 mmb/d. That's not happening with 129 idled refineries. Recent runs are back up to over 15 mmb/d.

On the E15,so explain to me how the existing refineries are going to be able to meet the 2023 EPA guidelines and spend billions without jacking the price of gas up to $30 a gallon without the use of the tax credits?

Are you thinking they are the only corporation in the world that does not pass added cost down to the consumer?

I already have an additional $25 a month fuel charge on top of a $15 per month green energy pre charge added to my electric bill starting 3 months ago,not sure why people have it in their mind the evil corporations are going to absorb all of this out of the kindness of their hearts.

It’s not a conspiracy theory,crap rolls downhill,who do you think is at the bottom of the hill?

I would love to see every refinery shut down in 2023 because of a mandated EPA regulation,the current administrations party would hold no office for the next 50 years.

Thats what happens when you put the cart before the horse just to appease a minority,I paid $5 per gallon today,not that I care because I just pass down the increased amount down to my customers,and they pass it down to the person in the street that is struggling to pay the rent.

See how that works?

19 food processing plants have also burned or exploded this year,they will not be able to feed the country and process the corn for E15 at this point,we are heading for a shit storm come fall even worse if they cannot roll the E15 tax credits over come 2023.

The 2 things this country runs on,food and fuel,is going to be in short supply.

I guess the silver lining in all of this, is we so far do not have bombs raining down on us from the WW3 that you guys started,so $5 per gallon becomes insignificant in the grand scope of thingsz

^ Gibberish

[Richard]

I am not trying to prove anything - the question is clearly stated in the thread topic,I answered it and the reasons I believe,and backed up with links,why I believe it is a scam and a case of look here and do not look there.

You reply was it will never happen because gas stations do not have the infrastructure in place to dispense it.

Which was wrong - then when you are shown the facts the best you can do is call gibberish.

Your reply’s are not about E15,your reply’s are based on a narrative and anybody that does not follow it is full of gibberish.

[MikeM]

On April 12th, the president made a midterm visit to Iowa. He proposed lifting the summer ban on sales of E15 to help keep prices in check:

Today, I’m announcing that the Environmental — and I don’t think it’s much of an announcement; it’s already broken out pretty much the last 24 hours — but the Environmental Protection Agency is planning to issue an emergency waiver to allow E15 gasoline that uses more ethanol from homegrown crops to be sold across the United States this summer in order to increase fuel supply. [[Applause.)

And, folks, I feel like — thank you. I feel like, as a minister and I feel like I’m preaching to the choir here. But here’s what it means: E15 is about 10 cents a gallon cheaper than E10, and some gas stations offer an even bigger discount than that.

But many of the gas stations that sell it here in Iowa, Illinois, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania are required to stop selling it in the summer.

But with this waiver, on June 1, you’re not going to show up at your local gas station and see a bag over the pump that has the cheapest gas. You’re going to be able to keep filling up with E15. [[Applause.)

On April 13th, the OP posts an article referring to the lifting of the E15 summer sales ban and asks if you will use it. I respond by informing him that it won't be an issue because no one around here sells it. Only 1.5% of the stations in the country sell it, so don't worry about it. You take off on some rambling diatribe about ethanol and post a bunch of false information that shows the shallowness of your knowledge of the refining industry.

The funny part is how triggered you are. When Trump was president and flew to Iowa during the midterms and proposed lifting the summer E15 sales ban - as a way to increase corn prices! - I didn't come to a Detroit discussion forum and rant for three weeks about it.

But last night at a rally in Council Bluffs, Iowa, President Trump made an announcement he hopes will make a lot of those farmers very happy.

[[SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: My administration is protecting ethanol, all right? That's what you want to hear.

[[CHEERING)

TRUMP: Today, we are unleashing the power of E15 to fuel our country all year long.

MARTIN: President Trump is referring to his promise to lift certain restrictions on the sale of ethanol and gasoline in order to boost sales and put more money in the pockets of corn farmers. Clay Masters of Iowa Public Radio was at the rally, and he joins us now from Council Bluffs, Iowa. Good morning, Clay.

CLAY MASTERS, BYLINE: Good morning.

MARTIN: So just lay out for us what President Trump is ordering the EPA to do by lifting regulations on ethanol.

MASTERS: So last night, the president laid out his intent to extend the sale of a kind of gasoline called E15 year-round. Right now, selling it in the summer months is prohibited. E15 is basically gasoline with 15 percent of it being primarily from corn-based ethanol. Doing this could prop up corn prices that have been down thanks to tariffs by other countries imposed in retaliation for the Trump administration's trade war.

[Richard]

You are confused,I am not triggered by it,for every action there is a reaction and for it to be beneficial you have to look at true intent.

E15 burns faster,which means you use more of it quicker which increases the demand and they will sell more of it,so what are you solving outside of increasing production at the refinery and increasing the demand on corn?

So what is the benefit of lowering the price at the pump when all it will do is increase the price at the grocery store,it is actually costing the consumer more in the bigger picture.

The only benefit that kicks in when you attach tax credits for every gallon sold which can then be sold to the refineries so they can meet their pollution standards.

All they really had to do was delay the implementation of the new standards,but that would have looked like they were walking back on pollution promises.

The trade war had zero to do with it,the government has been propping up corn trade and production for decades in order to keep the cost of food down.

E15 does not care about summer or winter,it’s the additives that decrease expansion rates in hot weather that make the difference.

Mainly the use of butane,so what happens when you increase the production of butane?

You are not solving anything because you are then increasing the pollution levels that it takes to create the butane.

It is simple - sorry guys,we want to save the planet but do to circumstances we are going to have to delay certain pollution controls at the refineries so they can ramp up production in order to meet the demand,that will drive prices down.

When you fine a refinery for creating pollution after a certain cut off point,they are going to limit production up to that point,after that point it becomes to expensive to produce and the price goes up accordingly in order to offset the increased fines.

The process is totally irrelevant.

You called the OP a he - she is a female - you live there you should know that,but when you do not pay attention to the bigger picture you lose little pertinent details like that.

[Zacha341]

LOL! Am I a 'she'....? I've thought so all these years so far, but now I best check with a biologist!

I would not want offend anyone by insisting with any certainty......

Back to the topic I'm noticing that 87 Octane is running thru my car like water. Maybe it's the station I am using. Going to try 89. Costs more but if better mileage......

...You called the OP a he - she is a female - you live there you should know that, but when you do not pay attention to the bigger picture you lose little pertinent details like that.

[MikeM]

E15 does not care about summer or winter,it’s the additives that decrease expansion rates in hot weather that make the difference.

You need to learn what Reid vapor pressure is, what affects it, how ethanol and butane affect it, and why it's regulated. Then you'd know why E15 cares if it's summer or winter.

Mainly the use of butane,so what happens when you increase the production of butane?

You are not solving anything because you are then increasing the pollution levels that it takes to create the butane.

Butane is not an "additive" - it's not something from outside the refining or production process that you add in [[like a detergent). It's a byproduct of either refining oil or, more commonly, from stripping natural gas liquids at the well or at fractionating plants. Refinery butane has to compete with fractionator butane for supplies to steam crackers at petrochemical plants for ethylene production, and for LPG fuels. It's usually cheap since it's more plentiful in typical shale plays, so dumping it into the gasoline pool in cold months when its high RVP won't push the gasoline RVP over acceptable limits makes economic sense. Of course it depends on the RBOB/butane spread, export demand, storage costs, etc.

The rest is still gibberish.

[Richard]

Geez talk about gibberish,I have a couple of friends that are petro engineers,I can hook you up with them and you can debate the details down to the molecular structure of a drop of gasoline until the cows come home.

The average consumer picks up the pump and puts gas in their car,they are not looking to learn the process.

What they want to know is how much will it cost them,is it bad for my car and what are the ramifications of its use and how does it effect me.

So others and myself have outlined all of those aspects,provided links if somebody wants to go further they are welcome to.

You started this discussion with the comment of - it will never happen because the stations do not have the infrastructure.

So now you have gone from knowing zero to internet searching,and posting the results and then what anybody else says is gibberish.

Grasshopper you have many many years to go in order to catch up to us old foggies that you detest so much,you may be able to impress your other young compatriots while sitting around vaping or getting stoned but most of us where were you are now at before or maybe while you were still in diapers.

You may also learn at some point that when they say they are the government and they are here to help,that is the time when you need to be looking at why because it always comes with a catch and nothing should be taken at face value.

If you want to save the planet and support the polices that they tell you are all about saving the planet,no problem,but until you stop buying crap from China and discontinue the use of plastic,nobody is really saving anything or even serious about saving the planet.

Us old foggies used to bring the groceries home in paper bags and our drinks in glass bottles,all recyclable,we were saving the planet long before it was even a thing.

Its about generating revenue and the ones that can come up with the best heart tugging schemes generate the most revenue.

You will learn about snake oil schemes when you get older and how it costs you money,no problem if you want to give up yours but I like to keep as much as mine as possible,that’s the goal,I did work for it.

No matter how you spin it ,E15 as it is being presented is a snake oil scheme,I already explained the process and who it benefits and what the objective is.

You have not debated any of that,just focusing on the chemistry,which nobody cares about,other then the corn part and the separation issues the rest does not matter.

The chemical make up of snake oil is irrelevant,the circumstances surrounding the sale of snake oil is what is relevant.

Unless of course you can explain the economics of saving .50 at the pump while increasing the cost $3 in food products as a result of and how that actually is beneficial to the consumer.

Simple economics,so why would they make a move like that ? There is a reason.

Trump threw the E15 across the board but in the end easing the pollution restrictions on the refineries and drilling for oil in country was what drove prices down across the board which also lowers the cost of food production.

They can do that now instead of just trying to pull the rug out from fossil fuel with some kind of wet dream deadline that they know will never work.

They can slowly phase it out over a long period of time without bankrupting or throwing 1/2 of the population into poverty in the process.

[MikeM]

Geez talk about gibberish,I have a couple of friends that are petro engineers,I can hook you up with them and you can debate the details down to the molecular structure of a drop of gasoline until the cows come home.

The average consumer picks up the pump and puts gas in their car,they are not looking to learn the process.

What they want to know is how much will it cost them,is it bad for my car and what are the ramifications of its use and how does it effect me.

So then why did you bring up butane and additives and "expansion"? Lol

So others and myself have outlined all of those aspects,provided links if somebody wants to go further they are welcome to.

You started this discussion with the comment of - it will never happen because the stations do not have the infrastructure.

So now you have gone from knowing zero to internet searching,and posting the results and then what anybody else says is gibberish.

Who went internet searching and posting links and revealed how little they know? Lol

Grasshopper you have many many years to go in order to catch up to us old foggies that you detest so much,you may be able to impress your other young compatriots while sitting around vaping or getting stoned but most of us where were you are now at before or maybe while you were still in diapers.

You may also learn at some point that when they say they are the government and they are here to help,that is the time when you need to be looking at why because it always comes with a catch and nothing should be taken at face value.

If you want to save the planet and support the polices that they tell you are all about saving the planet,no problem,but until you stop buying crap from China and discontinue the use of plastic,nobody is really saving anything or even serious about saving the planet.

Us old foggies used to bring the groceries home in paper bags and our drinks in glass bottles,all recyclable,we were saving the planet long before it was even a thing.

Its about generating revenue and the ones that can come up with the best heart tugging schemes generate the most revenue.

You will learn about snake oil schemes when you get older and how it costs you money,no problem if you want to give up yours but I like to keep as much as mine as possible,that’s the goal,I did work for it.

No matter how you spin it ,E15 as it is being presented is a snake oil scheme,I already explained the process and who it benefits and what the objective is.

You have not debated any of that,just focusing on the chemistry,which nobody cares about,other then the corn part and the separation issues the rest does not matter.

The chemical make up of snake oil is irrelevant,the circumstances surrounding the sale of snake oil is what is relevant.

Unless of course you can explain the economics of saving .50 at the pump while increasing the cost $3 in food products as a result of and how that actually is beneficial to the consumer.

Simple economics,so why would they make a move like that ? There is a reason.

Trump threw the E15 across the board but in the end easing the pollution restrictions on the refineries and drilling for oil in country was what drove prices down across the board which also lowers the cost of food production.

They can do that now instead of just trying to pull the rug out from fossil fuel with some kind of wet dream deadline that they know will never work.

They can slowly phase it out over a long period of time without bankrupting or throwing 1/2 of the population into poverty in the process.

Thanks for wasting our time with your stream of gibberish, grandpa. Go be useful and drive your jaguar around and report back how many E15 pumps you find.

[Richard]

Okay youngster,you got me there because the farmers did not go out during the winter to plant the corn,last years crop was already spoken for and sense this years crop will not be planted and ready for market until the fall,it would be tough to find E15 on a large scale now.

Maybe that will give the service stations in Detroit time to change their infrastructure in order to dispense it at that time.

In the meantime feel free to save the planet at your expense and not mine,there are enough fake hairbrain schemes going on out there already sucking peoples wallets dry in order to make a few people feel good about themselves.

Its scheduled to come out in June using the existing 88 octane pumps.

Biden says is it going to be used to reduce independence on foreign oil,funny thing is we were already independent on foreign oil before he took office and changed it.

[MikeM]

No one is trying to save the planet. The stated goal was a temporary easing of prices by increasing fuel supply [[removing the E15 summer ban).

How are we already independent of foreign oil? We imported over 8 million barrels per day last week.

[Richard]

Re-read what I wrote.

Of course it is about saving the planet,that was the reason Biden shut down fracking and pipelines as soon as he took office and removed our self reliance on oil.

I thought that was the whole reason behind saving the planet,removing fossils fuels from the equation.

Oppps sorry I forgot,how to make billions off of people thinking they are saving the planet 101.

The estimated savings at the pump equates to 10c per gallon,so people with little cars will save $1 per 10 gallons but spend $3 more in the supermarket for every $1 per savings at the pump.

That is cash out of pocket,now total up what it will cost the taxpayers in additional tax credit costs,billions.

[MikeM]

No, at this point it's not about saving the planet. It's all about saving your ego, your self-righteous need to bloviate about any and every topic, your need to crap all over every thread with your logomania. I think your hot air is a bigger threat to the planet than ethanol.

[Richard]

No, at this point it's not about saving the planet. It's all about saving your ego, your self-righteous need to bloviate about any and every topic, your need to crap all over every thread with your logomania. I think your hot air is a bigger threat to the planet than ethanol.

Feel better now? Maybe when you reach the age of 18 you will gain knowledge,even more so the older you get,that’s what happens as you experience life,along the way you gain knowledge,I have knowledge on a large spread,because I made it my business to gain it.

You started all of this with your comment of E15 will never come in because the service stations did not have the infrastructure.

You posted flat out false information and, I am the problem.

I have not posted anything that I have not either backed up with links or that is not easily searched to verify.

You are pushing a narrative,I presented pertinent information.

You have the world of information at your fingertips and yet you act and treat others with disrespect,you have a lot of learning to do.

Your daddy says it is about saving the planet,you gonna argue with him about it also?
Biden acknowledged that E15 is only sold in a limited number of gas stations, saying “even though E15 is only available in a few thousand pumps today, we’re investing more than $100 million to build biofuel infrastructure of the future — things like . . . blender pumps, the gas pumps that can handle higher blends of bio-ethanol and diesel fuel.”
Biden further referenced his plans to substantially boost production of sustainable aviation fuel [[SAF) to reduce the carbon footprint of the aviation sector. The administration has indicated that it may open paths for producers to make SAF from ethanol, in addition to existing pathways for production of the fuel.
The biofuels industry “has a role to play in a sustainable energy future,” Biden said.

https://www.governorsbiofuelscoaliti...g-term-future/

The reason they do not like to use E15 in the summer? Because it actually increases the levels of pollution,look it up.

You better be careful when you post disinformation like that,your party has a new disinformation squad and they will not think twice about eating their own.

[MikeM]

The reason they do not like to use E15 in the summer? Because it actually increases the levels of pollution,look it up.

Duh! That's why it's banned. The whole point of the thread was about the ban being waived. Where have you been? Too busy raving to pay attention.

[Richard]

Duh! That's why it's banned. The whole point of the thread was about the ban being waived. Where have you been? Too busy raving to pay attention.

Nice try on the flip

If you had known that you would have never come out the gate with - it will never happen because the service stations do not have the infrastructure.

You would have said - good luck with that,when Trump tried doing it the courts struck it down and did not allow it.

The question posted as a thread topic was - will you use blended ethanol gas in your car and will it help?

Pretty simple question.

My raving as you put it outlined the specific reasons as to why I thought it was a bad idea and went in depth as to why.

All you could come up with was - it will never happen,and you considered that a superior well thought out reply.

Thats not a discussion.

Maybe your disconnect comes from not understanding the whole purpose of a discussion is,if the OP was looking for a poll they would have put a poll thingy at the top.

I will tell you a little story,you are free to skip it,it happened probably when you were still in grammar school.

There is a country called Venezuela,it was rolling right along as one of the most productive and wealthiest countries in Latin America.

Along came a farmer called Chavez and decided to take that democracy and create a dictatorship out of it.

Americans did not like that,because dictatorships,socialists and wannabe socialists and commies are not in our Christmas list.

The oil company in the U.S. called CITCO is owned by the Venezuelan government and at the time 7-11 sold CITCO gasoline as their only brand in their 1000s of stores across the country.

Overnight Amercians stopped purchasing gas at 7-11 and from CITCO ,it almost bankrupted 7-11.

If people do not like E15 they will not buy it,you know that,I know that,Biden knows that,implementing it would cost billions in lost revenue.

The one thing you will not admit is,the very act of bringing the topic up under the current leadership was an act of pandering out of desperation.

When he brought it up he was in Iowa,looking for support because Iowa is the leading corn production state in the country.

So instead of looking for solutions to the mess that was created day one in office when those orders were signed removing this country from self reliance,and lower gas prices , and became energy and dependent on other countries.

The gas companies do not set the price per gallon,opec does,E15 does not drive the price of gas down,oversupply does.

All E15 does is water down the base in order to stretch it out.

So why even pander to the population looking for real answers,just like in this thread,people were looking for real answers so they could make that decision if and when the time comes.

Which is a bit more then

It will never happen
The service stations do not have the infrastructure to dispense it.

When the question was - will you use it - will it help



You still have not answered the questions posted and you keep twisting around like a rattle snake in a burlap bag.

The difference between when Trump tried to implement it and Biden trying to implement it?

There is a war going on,no surprise,but it does give Biden a leg up on getting it approved considering it could be sold as in the interest of national economic security.


The state of Michigan has already approved it with zero opposition from the courts,why would they do that if they already knew that the court shot Trump down,unless of course that court was a part of the resist anything Trump aspect.


Look at the timing when Michigan approved it,it was already decided they were going to implement it at least 1.5 years ago.

They not only passed the act,they also figured out the tax credit aspect,that has to be the fastest action any state has ever done in the history of the country.

Imagine if they put that same effort into fixing the potholes,they would be filled so fast it would take people 30 days before they even realized they were fixed.

Or even when it comes to transit.

You have to wonder what was the real motivation behind all of that in order to implement the passing of it at that speed.

Outside of pure desperation.

Like it or not at this time,everything we see feel and eat still depends on fossil fuels in its creation,the only way you are going to drive down costs is by increasing the supply of oil and extend the deadlines on the refineries,but some feel it is necessary to drive this country into a deep dark recession and make millions of Americans suffer all in the name of saving the planet and the best they can come up with is E15 pandering.

The right hand womans response was - all Amercians need to do is lower their standards.

She is kind right though,we really do not need to eat 3 meals a day,people lived without A/C and heating for decades and most rural locations did not get electricity until after 1946.

[MikeM]

You have quite the imagination. I never flipped. I "came out of the gate" with E15 can't be bought around here, so you won't have a choice. And it didn't take me 35 paragraphs to say it. 35!

[Richard]

You have quite the imagination. I never flipped. I "came out of the gate" with E15 can't be bought around here, so you won't have a choice. And it didn't take me 35 paragraphs to say it. 35!

Do you only see the world day by day?

It is being staged for the summer,June,is it summer yet or June in Detroit?

Or do you have special months outside of the rest of the world to match your special gas pumps?

The state would have never passed the bill and tax credit package at light speed if they did not intend on implementing it.

See that is the problem,you make it personal,it is not my imagination,I posted the links to back it up.

You are correct it did not take you 35 paragraphs to post false information but then again shallow minds should stick to shallow thoughts.

You are mistaken if you think that this thread has been about yours or mine little playground,there are others that would like to see the bigger picture,just because you do not like it personally,nobody cares.

Others are smart enough to take what they wish out of it,if they learned something all the better,knowledge is power,trying to restrict knowledge that you do not like or how it is presented is weak.

You will learn stuff like that as you mature.

All of the evilness and suffering going on in the world and what concerns you the most is somebody posting 35 paragraphs on the internet.

You should take advantage of your ability to travel while you are young,maybe it will give you a grasp of how lucky you really have it,while you bitch about 35 paragraphs on the internet in other places entire families are getting slaughtered,they would love to change places with you so you do not have to suffer the trauma of seeing 35 paragraphs on the internet.

You have a choice they did not.

Mid terms are coming up and there is zero positive news for a certain party and that spells disaster,if they can kick in E15 and be able to say look we brought the price of gas down see how good we are,it does not matter what the consequences are,so if it is thought that E15 will be a quick way of getting some positive press,you will have E15 coming out of your south end.

Short term fixes that are designed to pump up ratings have long term negative consequences,most that have been around for awhile are well aware of that.

There are people a lot more powerful then you setting the stage for it to happen,so outside of you saying it will not happen,maybe coming up with some positives that would give people a little more insite or even your reasons why it will not happen it may be a bit more productive.

There is nothing in this world that you can say it will never happen, because somebody some where always has a reason or motive to make it happen.

All I have done is complied information from multiple different sources and condensed it down,even if it is 35 paragraphs,it is still less time consuming to somebody that does not want to do or does not have the time to research certain topics,you and others with a limited attention span may be triggered by that,but you are not the only one in existence and the world was not put into existence in order to cater to you.

Its like anything else in life,it’s there,what you do with it or how you apply it is up to you,you and others are not the designated spokesperson for society or how much information they should be subject to.

To me the only person that can dictate to me the length or content of my posts is the owner of the site,it is their realm,anybody else that may have an issue,you have the option of cancelling your voice out by blocking me.

It’s really not that complicated.

[MikeM]

It’s really not that complicated.

Lol, the irony.

[Rocket]

the only person that can dictate to me the length or content of my posts is the ..........

Of course, just understand that NO ONE is reading them. Perhaps they'll read the first couple of lines, then the last couple.

You end up conveying less, not more.

[Richard]

Of course, just understand that NO ONE is reading them. Perhaps they'll read the first couple of lines, then the last couple.

You end up conveying less, not more.

Did you know that the number one rule with posting dis-information on the internet that is taught?

Keep your post in under 3 lines and to the point.

Not everything is that simple and for people to understand sometimes things take a little bit more of an explanation,you can train a monkey or bot to simply post - it will never happen.

Whats the point of that outside of seeking recognition without actually participating.

The thread has over 2300 views,it’s kinda hard to make the claim that NO ONE read it,ya think?

Maybe that is the real reason for the downfall of print media,people no longer have the attention span past 3 lines like they are living in a Twitter world.

My 2020 F250 has 3 different sections of owner’s manual over 150 pages,you guys should tell Ford nobody can read anymore if it goes past 3 lines,it would save them millions.

How is my posting length any different then the links people post where when you click on them,it leads to twice the amount of words?

I have no interest in climbing Mt Everest,but I would not feel it is my place to dictate to those that are interested in climbing it as to how they should go about it.

It shows how screwed up people are,read comments in forums,Facebook,Facebook market place,next door etc ,95% of the comments have zero to do with what is posted,just people going after the poster and the content.

I can make it simple for people

No,I will not use E15,because it sucks.

Now where do I pick up my participation trophy?

Not that I care and it’s just an observation,others have made long posts,including ones that feel the need to complain about long posts, but nobody has an issue there.

That tells me it is not the length of the post that is the issue,more so a fraction of people that use that beef in order to be a part of that group that goes around patting each other in the back because they view those actions as a score against the opposition.

I am not a needy person,I make my own way in life and and view contributions as a little more then 3 lines posted on the internet that really says nothing,that deserves some kind of participation trophy.

I can talk to myself and say things that are meaningless,without having to post them on the internet.

No wonder everywhere you go,even to restaurants,everybody is staring at their phones,seems like nobody actually has discussions anymore.

How does anybody even get a college degree anymore,maybe they limit the exams to 3 lines or less ?

Maybe that is the real reason people cannot afford to buy a house and spend night and day telling the internet about it,they would never be able to fill out a mortgage application because it is longer then 3 lines.

You get back in life the effort you put into it,if all people can comprehend in the learning process is anything printed in 3 lines or less,they are going to have a hard go at it.

Over 2300 views,if 1 person walked away with a better understanding,that’s all that matters,the other 99% is indicative of why there are successful people and there are not because most will not make the effort to get to where they want to be.

The forum is no different,there will be those who seek more knowledge on a particular subject and there will be those who will input non essential things because it does not interest them,and they think in a singular pattern,if it does not interest them,they feel it should interest nobody else.

[Gistok]

^ Thread read count NOT EQUAL to post read count. Having 20+ paragraphs, with many Red Herrings, makes the extra effort less worth it to read. There are at least 10 posters that have suggested that to you remove the fluff, which you have ignored. Also you have issues with mixing homonyms. Not a good sign for getting your points across.