School Shooting at Oxford High School

**Meddle** · December-04-21, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by oladub

Did they purchase gun for their boy as you stated ...

There's a screenshot up there somewhere where he calls it his new toy, or present, or something along that line.

**jcole** · December-04-21, 09:46 AM

From what I understand, they attended their son's arraignment from the front seat of their KIA via Zoom after having taken 4 grand out of the bank, so I think they may have been "on the lam" before the Prosecutor even mentioned charging them.

Originally Posted by NSortzi

So its been public knowledge that the parents might be charged since, what, the day after the shooting? And yet law enforcement wasn't watching them? They could be days away by now. How embarrassing.

**Hermod** · December-04-21, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Richard

c
A deadly weapon is a deadly weapon,a gun is no different then a car or knife or stick of dynamite,in the wrong hands or not used responsible they can all kill,dead is dead the last time I checked.

The worst school killing in the history of the US happened in Michigan when a disgruntled person dynamited a school.

**Maof** · December-04-21, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Meddle

If they were inside a business that wasn't open at the time and didn't break in, that would certainly be an issue.

Or maybe whoever let them in knew they were on the run and called authorities.

**jcole** · December-04-21, 10:03 AM

From my understanding, their car was found and they tracked them somehow to the art gallery and had to search it from topo to bottom to find them

Originally Posted by Maof

Or maybe whoever let them in knew they were on the run and called authorities.

**southen** · December-04-21, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by oladub

You are so right. Math is a form of mental gymnastics that prioritizes proportionality over politically driven sensationalism. The average of 10 school children and teens being killed in schools annually constitutes less than 1/5,000 of children dying since COVID began but let's focus on that because it promotes the Democratic Party narrative [[sarcasm). That's called not seeing the forest through the trees. People who can't see the forest through the trees wind up with high crime along with other problems.

I even have my booster wherever you are attempting to go spinning away with presumptions with that and the lecture about who vaccines protect blah, blah, blah..;

I agree that it isn't difficult to obtain weapons. The racist guy in Waukesha only needed a SUV to kill six [[so far) and hew down another 60 people ten days after running over his child's mother. SUV owners don't have to register their SUV's with the federal government either. I would blame that mega crime more on the soft DA who let him back on the street for a $1,000 bail than on his SUV. This is what happens when local governments get soft on crime.

I thought I mentioned that I supported arresting the parents of criminals in the Oxford case for not better securing their guns. That's actually a form of gun control although I think of it as prudence and a failure to mitigate problems.

In your post #143 you claimed, "These parents purchased a deadly weapon for a 15 year old." The BBC today said that, "Prosecutors say Ethan Crumbley, 15, used his father's gun". Did they purchase gun for their boy as you stated or did the boy take his father's gun as reported by the BBC? Either you or the British Broadcasting Corporation is wrong.

It is your interpretation of the math that is the problem, but you already knew that. Again, you continue to completely ignore the numbers that aren't readily available which is the mental impact that these actions and gun violence have on people. That would involve actually caring about other people instead of using certain statistics to downplay the impact of these events.

You do realize that if we regulated guns the way we regulate automobiles there would be a substantial decrease in gun related deaths and crimes, right? You keep comparing a gun massacre to cars as if it is somehow valid. I wish we would treat guns the way we treated cars. I would love to see gun owners sit at the DMV for hours on end each year.

It has been well reported that the gun was a gift for the boy. Must have missed that while crunching those statistics.

**Maof** · December-04-21, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by jcole

From my understanding, their car was found and they tracked them somehow to the art gallery and had to search it from topo to bottom to find them

Oh ok, I didn't know that.

**jcole** · December-04-21, 10:34 AM

I am so confused by this; why, if you are being charged with manslaughter, would you want to hire a firm[[a two person firm)that specializes in defending sex abusers? Do they just know these women or were they the first thing that popped up on Google?
https://defendingabuse.com/

Originally Posted by Meddle

^^^ Their 'lawyer' is connected to none other than Larry Nassar.

**CassTechGrad** · December-04-21, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Meddle

"But looking at such an issue after-the-fact raises other questions, said Christopher Smith, professor of Law and Public Policy at Michigan State University and chair of the Michigan Coalition to Prevent Gun Violence.

You have to consider whether the “teacher and school officials specifically have in their training that you need to report all these things,” Smith said.

“It’s easy enough to say people should do this and this and this,” he added. “If it’s not a part of the training, we have to wonder if it was realistic to expect someone to report this.”"

https://www.usnews.com/news/us/artic...chool-shooting

You don't need training for this. You see those kinds of pictures and notes, you act.

Did someone say "training"

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**Burnsie** · December-04-21, 10:43 AM

1111 Bellevue where they were hiding was built in 1916, Standard Motor Truck Co. assembly plant. Designed by Albert Kahn and Ernest Wilby.

**Lowell** · December-04-21, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by softailrider

Lots of kids grow up around firearms. Maybe they go target shooting or trap shooting or hunting with their parents. There's a lot of kids who are familiar with firearms and don't go shooting up their High School. Parents have to monitor their kids, these parents failed.

Yup that was me to varying degrees, grew up in huntin' and fishin' small towns, learned to lock then load, never ever let the barrel sweep across any part of a human body loaded or unloaded etc.

Events like this, 24th mass shooting event in Michigan this year I heard, leave us numb and shaking our heads, repeating the same arguments. Is it the guns? the parenting? a society that doesn't consider mental illness a medical issue? decline of morality? All of the above?

I'm resigned to a fatalism. The gun genie is out of the bottle and can't/won't be put back any more Chernobyl or Fukushima can. It's now permanent part of our environment, a bell that cannot be unrung like the mambas and cobras that were everywhere when I taught school in Africa, an every day threat that despite our caution can still bite us when we open a closet door or flip up the hood of our car.

**Lowell** · December-04-21, 11:28 AM

And now that this story is in the legal phase, and from what I've read here and elsewhere, the defense will have a very strong insanity plea, combined with the defendant's age, and parental actions and inactions.

**Henry Whalley** · December-04-21, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Lowell

I'm resigned to a fatalism...

Ditto, because optimism is the lowest form of cowardice.

**Meddle** · December-04-21, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Lowell

the defense will have a very strong insanity plea,

Supermarket guy in Boulder went that route. He ain't gonna be out any time soon, if ever.

**canuck** · December-04-21, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast

Can anyone seriously claim that it's not incredibly irresponsible to be called into your son's school to discuss his "concerning behavior" and at the same time not secure any firearms that are in the home?

He was too young to drive at fifteen, so I guess the next best thing was to purchase a gun. He could have rammed his into a crowd of schoolkids, but

It boggles my mind, but then again I don't live in ammosexual world and I don't fetishize guns.

He was too young to drive at fifteen, so they bought him the next best thing; a gun.

If he had been more patient, he could have rammed a car at sixteen into a crowd of schoolmates a year from now but his folks got him an innocent, inanimate object to content him for a while.

**401don** · December-04-21, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by Lowell

Yup that was me to varying degrees, grew up in huntin' and fishin' small towns, learned to lock then load, never ever let the barrel sweep across any part of a human body loaded or unloaded etc.

Events like this, 24th mass shooting event in Michigan this year I heard, leave us numb and shaking our heads, repeating the same arguments. Is it the guns? the parenting? a society that doesn't consider mental illness a medical issue? decline of morality? All of the above?

I'm resigned to a fatalism. The gun genie is out of the bottle and can't/won't be put back any more Chernobyl or Fukushima can. It's now permanent part of our environment, a bell that cannot be unrung like the mambas and cobras that were everywhere when I taught school in Africa, an every day threat that despite our caution can still bite us when we open a closet door or flip up the hood of our car.

This the problem which will never be corrected during our lifetimes. It's the prevalence of guns combined with a breakdown of American society. Switzerland has higher gun ownership than the U.S. but has miniscule gun homicides and hasn't had a mass murder in over 15 years. Those in favor of no firearms control will point to Switzerland and say "see it's the parent's responsibility to teach", knowing full well a significant segment of American society is totally disfunctional. As long as guns are laying around everywhere kids will take them to school and kill their fellow students or people will pick them up and shoot their spouse or neighbor during an argument or a kid will accidentally kill his baby brother or a guy will reach across his car seat during a fit of road rage or pull one out at a bar, etc.
The only solution to these crimes, which does nothing to get at causation, is stiffer punishment. If a gun is found not secured properly a mandatory 2 yr. prison sentence or something similar. Of course that will never happen. We still give repeat drunk drivers a slap on the wrist until they kill someone as well.

**Zacha341** · December-04-21, 01:50 PM

In Your OPINION. Thank you for sharing.

Originally Posted by Meddle

This thread is not about Chicago.

There is no reason for every thread on this site to be about Chicago.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · December-04-21, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Someone call Bouchard and tell him to get down here and pick up his trash, we have no dumping policies.

That's a good one.

**Meddle** · December-04-21, 03:20 PM

I won't be terribly surprised if the charges on the parents don't get dropped or at least reduced.

And I still want to see what happens to anyone else that was in that meeting.

**Hermod** · December-04-21, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Meddle

I won't be terribly surprised if the charges on the parents don't get dropped or at least reduced.

And I still want to see what happens to anyone else that was in that meeting.

The parents will get something, but not manslaughter.

The kid will get four murder ones and numerous assaults with intent to commit muder. The terrorism charge is an overcharge that will go away. The kid will be found guilty [[no not guilty by reason of insanity).

The main focus of the trial will be in the penalty phase where the kid's mental and emotional health and evidence of bullying and what desperate feeling he might have. I do not see life without parole, but a long sentence [[25 years?).

The supreme court has weighed in that life without parole for a juvenile charged as an adult is excessive and several sentences have been shortened on this basis in Florida.

**Richard** · December-04-21, 06:44 PM

Cases of where parents charged in school shootings are very rare,I would they would have to prove malicious intent for the manslaughter charge.

This is the bill that was in the table but has not passed in relation to the failure to secure,which kinda does not exist

Senate Bills 550-553 and House Bills 5066-5069 would require anyone who stores a firearm in an area accessible by a minor to either secure the gun with a locking device, store it in a lock box or keep it "in a location that a reasonable person would believe is secure." Failure to do so would be a felony punishable by up to five years in prison if a minor used the gun to injure or kill anyone, including themselves. The legislation would also exempt "firearm safety devices" from the state's 6 percent sales and use tax, reducing the total cost.

So this manslaughter charge,the resources that were used to collect the parents are all in the name of showboating and adding even more unnecessary drama to an already horrible situation.

Its more about a fake facade of justice and appeasement verses the rule of law.

How can they charge the parents with manslaughter because they allowed the minor to have excess to the gun IE they did not secure it - When it is clearly not illegal nor is it legally defined or required as to how one should secure it,it’s proposed but not passed.

I think it is like any other case,it takes money to defend yourself,the prosecutors are banking on the parents will not be able to afford a good lawyer and they are using this case to set a precedent over something that they could not get passed in the legislation,if they can get the manslaughter charge to stick,liberal judge,then there will be no need for the rule of law to be established by the legislature,because it will be set forth by the courts.

The prosecutor in this case,a person that is expected to uphold the laws on the books,is useing this case to circumvent the very system put in place to establish those laws in the first place.

It is her job to uphold the laws and not to create laws by using the judicial system against itself.

That is how thousands are incarcerated every year simply because they cannot afford a good lawyer,prosecutors making up the law as they go along.

That is wrong,no matter how justified it may deem to a particular case,it sets precedent fir every case after that because there is no defined law,those with funds will walk those without will go to jail.

So how do they get manslaughter charges?

There is no defined law concerning storage and accessibility of the gun.

They are not qualified shrinks to determine the teenagers metal status and capacity.

They had no knowledge the teenager had the weapon with him.

Unless the prosecutors can prove the parents gave the gun to the kid and told him to go shoot up the school,how does just simply being his parents justify a manslaughter charge?

If we could charge parents for being stupid or for not being stellar parents,1/2 of the parents in this country would be in prison.

We burn cities while holding police officers,who are also charged with upholding the laws on the books and not creating them as they go along,how is this case any different when we can see it is not just the police but the justice system all the way up to the prosecutors.

The prosecutors statement

She claimed that she was not trying to attack gun owners, but rather reinforcing the principle of responsible gun ownership. She would not confirm or deny, when asked, if a school resource officer had been present at the meeting with the principal.

It’s not her job to reinforce the principles of responsible gun ownership,it is strictly her job to follow and enforce the rule of law as written and charge accordingly.

Unrelated

They put metal detectors in a Brooklyn school and this is what they found in the first day

A Brooklyn high school confiscated 21 weapons just one day after metal detectors were installed.City officials installed metal detectors at Urban Assembly School for Law and Justice Thursday morning after a 17-year-old student was caught with a pistol and more than $30,000 in cash. It only took one day for the school's faculty to confiscate an arsenal of weapons that included nine knives, seven cans of pepper spray, four stun guns, and a pair of brass knuckles.

https://www.vladtv.com/article/27821...installs-metal

We are way past the dealing with kids in school aspect.

**401don** · December-04-21, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

So this manslaughter charge,the resources that were used to collect the parents are all in the name of showboating and adding even more unnecessary drama to an already horrible situation.

Its more about a fake facade of justice and appeasement verses the rule of law.
How can they charge the parents with manslaughter because they allowed the minor to have excess to the gun IE they did not secure it - When it is clearly not illegal nor is it legally defined or required as to how one should secure it,it’s proposed but not passed.

So is there currently no law in Mich. requiring a gun be secured? If there is, then even if it's not clearly defined, secured would certainly imply locked in a drawer, cabinet, etc., would it not?
Also, the legal system sometimes moves slowly and incrementally. A prosecutor may push beyond the boundaries of existing laws to bring incidents to the lawmakers and the public's attention, which results in changes in the future. You may disagree with them doing that but that's happened since the beginning.

**Meddle** · December-04-21, 07:50 PM

School shooting suspect told counselors alarming drawings were for video game, superintendent says

ABC|2 hours ago

The suspect in the deadly shooting at Oxford High School reportedly told school guidance counselors that alarming drawings his teacher discovered were for a video game.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/school-sho...ry?id=81559292

Oh puhleeeeses.....

**Alley** · December-04-21, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Maof

Or maybe whoever let them in knew they were on the run and called authorities.

I read that the building owner realized a car should not be there, recognized it, and called police. Apparently the Crumbleys were locked in the office of Andrzej Sikora's studio. I'm going to assume that the fact that Jennifer Crumbley was credited with taking the pic of Sikora and his mural on a restaurant in Oxford [[just around the corner from her house) for an article a couple week ago, and them being found at his space, is not a coincidence. That credit has since been removed at the restaurant's request, but it's archived in Wayback Machine here: https://web.archive.org/web/20211118...urant-founder/

**Meddle** · December-05-21, 07:18 AM

Digging deeper ....

Third party to probe Oxford High's actions ahead of shooting

ABC|7 hours ago

A Michigan school leader says a third party will investigate events at Oxford High School ...

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/...oting-81565199

Michigan school shooting probe widens beyond suspect, parents

NBC News|6 hours ago

Michigan authorities are moving forward with a broad investigation into Tuesday's school shooting, including a probe into the possibility of an accomplice ...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...rents-rcna7660

Will Mr. Art Studio guy get locked up with the Crummies?

All 3 Crumbleys locked up in same Michigan jail, authorities say

Fox News|7 hours ago

Michigan shooting suspect Ethan Crumbley and his parents were all behind bars inside the same Oakland County lockup on Saturday, according to authorities.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/crumbleys...oakland-county