Raining in Detroit - Expressways and Homes Flooded

[Jimaz]

This isn't exactly a retention pond but Shelby Township is building a new reservoir to store up water during off peak hours to be used during peak hours. I think it's to avoid some financial fines or rate increases from GLWA or some such thing.

"... savings ... will result in a payback on the initial investment within five years."

That sounds like a fairly common sense thing to do. Do we need more of this in other GLWA communities?

• Live web camera shows construction of Shelby’s new water storage facility
• shelbytwp.org/dpw

[MikeM]

Yes, many other communities are doing that if they don't have one already.

[MikeM]

More record rainfall from Wednesday's storm: Rainfall totals

[Dumpling]

Every single time, it's the failure of the Conner Creek pumping station.

It lost power - GET A BACKUP GENERATOR!!!

2011, 2014, 2016 and now 2021. Except for 2014, it's been every 5 years.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...ay/6181038001/

The third party evaluations of the flooding problems
are here.

There are power upgrades underway for the GLWA
pump stations and more are planned. The other day
the wastewater plant was shut down for a few hours,
reportedly for adding a third power supply line from a
substation to the plant. There has been two lines from
two separate substations. I don't know the specific details.

The consultant report faulted the Freud Pump Station
for the June 25-26 flooding and the Bluehill Pump Station
for the July 16 flooding, but said that on both occasions the
Conner Creek Pump Station was fine.

Right now, so far as activating a generator, we have what
gun fans have to say about police: when seconds matter,
generator operators are minutes away.

[MikeM]

Experts: Pump problems may have made metro Detroit flooding worse, but damage inevitable

Experts reviewing June's flooding on behalf of metro Detroit's regional water system said water-logged basements were inevitable, but the "depth and duration" of the residential flooding would have been less without power failures at key east-side pumping stations.

Ed Hogan, a vice president at Detroit-based engineering firm Wade Trim, said their preliminary investigation shows the heavy rain would have caused some basement flooding no matter how GLWA facilities responded.

"But there is no question that the intensity of this rain event and the duration of the intensity of this rain event was such that there was going to be extensive basement flooding."

GLWA subscribes to two weather services that predicted about 1.5 inches of rain June 25-27, versus 6 to 8 inches that the area received overnight, Hogan said. The system is designed to handle up to 1.7 inches in an hour, he said.

[Richard]

Study finds that clean air leads to more Atlantic hurricanes

The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration study links changes in regional air pollution around the world to up-and-down storm activities. According to the study, a 50% reduction in pollution particles and droplets in Europe and the Americas is linked to a 33% increase in Atlantic hurricane formation over the past few decades, while the opposite is happening in the Pacific. Published in Wednesday’s Science Advances.


Murakami, Kosin and other scientists said climate change from greenhouse gases is expected to slightly reduce the overall number of storms, but increase the number and strength of the most intense storms, making them wetter and increasing hurricane flooding.

https://nationworldnews.com/study-fi...%20activities.

Follow the science correct?

The down side of de industrialization and cleaner air is is more intense storms and flooding.

[Gistok]

Wave after wave... 2-5" over next seven days.
Attachment 41521

Yikes! So far in 2022 rainfall has been pretty mild. We'll have to see how long it will last. Good to see that some of the homes in low lying areas of Dearborn Heights have been bought up by their city.

[canuck]

Study finds that clean air leads to more Atlantic hurricanes

The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration study links changes in regional air pollution around the world to up-and-down storm activities. According to the study, a 50% reduction in pollution particles and droplets in Europe and the Americas is linked to a 33% increase in Atlantic hurricane formation over the past few decades, while the opposite is happening in the Pacific. Published in Wednesday’s Science Advances.


Murakami, Kosin and other scientists said climate change from greenhouse gases is expected to slightly reduce the overall number of storms, but increase the number and strength of the most intense storms, making them wetter and increasing hurricane flooding.

https://nationworldnews.com/study-fi...%20activities.

Follow the science correct?

The down side of de industrialization and cleaner air is is more intense storms and flooding.

The down side of gleaning from below grade sources is that you end up flooding forums with septic posts.

[Richard]

The down side of gleaning from below grade sources is that you end up flooding forums with septic posts.

The downside of acting ignorant,is you remain ignorant.

[CassTechGrad]

In 1633 Galileo was sent to the inquisition for believing that the Earth was round: the consensus had declared it to be flat. One Man's Trash is Another Man's Data

[JonWylie]

Study finds that clean air leads to more Atlantic hurricanes

The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration study links changes in regional air pollution around the world to up-and-down storm activities. According to the study, a 50% reduction in pollution particles and droplets in Europe and the Americas is linked to a 33% increase in Atlantic hurricane formation over the past few decades, while the opposite is happening in the Pacific. Published in Wednesday’s Science Advances.


Murakami, Kosin and other scientists said climate change from greenhouse gases is expected to slightly reduce the overall number of storms, but increase the number and strength of the most intense storms, making them wetter and increasing hurricane flooding.

https://nationworldnews.com/study-fi...%20activities.

Follow the science correct?

The down side of de industrialization and cleaner air is is more intense storms and flooding.

So the logical conclusion is that we should pump the air with pollutants in hopes of decreasing hurricanes in one area of the world? Good luck taking that to the investors

[Rocket]

So the logical conclusion is that we should pump the air with pollutants in hopes of ............

Another conclusion might simply be that people shouldn't build homes or hotels on a beach in a hurricane zone.

And that if they decide to do it anyway, we taxpayers CERTAINLY shouldn't be forced to provide them with free flood insurance.

[Richard]

So the logical conclusion is that we should pump the air with pollutants in hopes of decreasing hurricanes in one area of the world? Good luck taking that to the investors

The only conclusion that it provides is that for every action there is a reaction,they still weigh the balance of the estimated 7 million that die from pollution verses those that die from an increase of intense storms.

Weather patterns do not only effect one region of the world,hurricanes are born in Africa and move across thousands of miles and hit the states.

Cold fronts start in Antarctica and blast through Canada and hit the states all the way down.

A hurricane hitting the south creates heavy rain events up north,it is all connected.

The only thing you guys took out of that was hurricanes and not my problem because they do not effect me in the north,no place in the world has its own little independent weather,it is all connected.

Do you have the same intensive rain events in Detroit that you had 10-20-30 years ago?

They are not saying more,they are saying less storms but more intensive ones.

Just do not make any attempt to use all information available in order to make decisions and prepare for changes in the future,wait until it is to late,makes more sense.

[Richard]

Another conclusion might simply be that people shouldn't build homes or hotels on a beach in a hurricane zone.

And that if they decide to do it anyway, we taxpayers CERTAINLY shouldn't be forced to provide them with free flood insurance.

Actually flood insurance is not free,highly subsidized yes,but anybody in the country that lives in a flood zone,including Detroit as clearly it floods or this thread would not exist,so you would have to apply that same logic to everybody in every city in the country.

That would be like saying people in Detroit should not build houses because it floods,and if they get flooded,tough you are on your own.

Detroit received over $39 million for that 2 day flooding event are you also saying,we the taxpayers should not have had to pay that also?

I did not hear anybody in Ohio saying,screw that why should my tax dollars pay for flooding in Detroit.

It’s your pension funds building those hotels and condos on the beaches in Florida and destroying them,maybe next time tell your pension funds to pick up their own tab,why should me as a taxpayer pay for your pension funds damages?

Is that how it works?

I agree with you though,I think everybody oceanfront should be self insured,it’s a beautiful view and only should be reserved for the billionaires and pension funds,the rest of the citizens should go find a mud puddle to slosh around in because they deserve less,added benefit it keeps the riff raff and low income away from the beaches,they do not deserve to have access because they are not a part of the millionaires club.

Why would I pay $800k to live beachfront and want some trash that only makes $100k a year moving in alongside of me because of taxpayer subsidies in the case of a storm.

Not that it matters because nobody pays cash for a $800k beach front home,they have a mortgage which requires insurance out the ass and there is very little tax dollars involved in rebuilding those properties,so the claim that taxpayers are paying to rebuild beachfront properties is not really true.

It may have been a different story up there when NY got hit because they did not live in a registered hurricane zone,those that do have special hurricane insurance which can be in excess of $15,000 a year.

My house is 1 mile from the beach and not subject to the direct wind loads but still in a hurricane zone,I am self insured but it would cost me over 6000 per year for hurricane insurance.

The taxpayer funded rebuilding kicks in when people cannot afford the insurance are reimbursed for damages,as a majority that is working families that own a home who also pay taxes that cover damages in other parts of the country when an event occurs.

Not sure where people get the idea that taxpayers are paying millionaires to rebuild their beach front properties,they would in no way qualify for any taxpayer relief simply because the dirt value alone is kicks them out of the minimum income levels needed to qualify for FEMA relief.

My house is paid for,if it was damaged during a hurricane,I could have FEMA pay to rebuild/repair it based on reported income levels,but it would also require me to sign a mortgage with FEMA with monthly payments and interest until it is paid back.

The only taxpayer money spent to rebuild is for low income,everybody else you have to pay it back and you cannot receive it if you do not meet the low income threshold.

[Gistok]

^ Richard... your Geography needs updating... Antarctica is at the South Pole...

[Rocket]

I agree with you though,I think everybody oceanfront should be self insured,it’s a beautiful view and only should be reserved for the billionaires and pension funds,the rest of the citizens should go find a mud puddle to slosh around in because they deserve less.

^Wha?

Rich people should be free to build where they want. Simultaneously, I shouldn't be forced to subsidize their silly decisions.

I never even hinted that they should ONLY be self insured. They are free to buy non-subsidized insurance like everyone else.

What happens if no insurer will offer to insure your $20 million home on the beach? Or the policy is $100k a year? Well, you'll need to factor that into your decision to build or not.

The problem ends up solving itself. If people can't get insurance, and therefore mortgages, they'll end up building on higher ground, further back from the ocean. The billionaire can still have a beach view, and the school teacher in Iowa making $55k a year won't have to subsidize it.

[Hermod]

The down side of de industrialization and cleaner air is is more intense storms and flooding.

There might be something in this. Back in the 1990s, I was living in the Tidewater area of Virginia. At a boat show, there was a NOAA booth where they had a hurricane history of Virginia. Obviously, the older historical hurricanes were prior to weather station data, but diary notes from the 17th and 18th centuries showed massive hurricanes with major geological shifts in the land. One hurricane scoured a swampy area into Lynnhaven Bay. A pair of hurricanes created Willoughby Spit. One hurricane put the entire eastern shore under water while it lasted. Right after the Revolution, a hurricane closed a major inlet in NC and Edenton, NC went from one of the leading US seaports into a backwater.

Years ago, large hurricanes often hit VA, NC, and SC. Now most seem to hit Florida and Texas. Hurricane intensity and frequency seem to run in cycles independent of the general warming trend as we climb out of the "Little Ice Age".

[canuck]

^ Richard... your Geography needs updating... Antarctica is at the South Pole...

Youguy gets his daily science fix from something called nationworldnews. I’ll just leave it at that…

Usguys just plain act ignorant.

[Jimaz]

... something called nationworldnews....

Hey now. Don't knock "the fastest emerging news website." News has to emerge from somewhere, dontcha know? LOL!

[Richard]

^ Richard... your Geography needs updating... Antarctica is at the South Pole...

You should watch the weather channel,they have little pictures that will help you along with things like the jet stream.

Your ability to even attempt to understand things needs updating,or trips you up in your overzealous attempts to correct others.

[Richard]

^Wha?

Rich people should be free to build where they want. Simultaneously, I shouldn't be forced to subsidize their silly decisions.

I never even hinted that they should ONLY be self insured. They are free to buy non-subsidized insurance like everyone else.

What happens if no insurer will offer to insure your $20 million home on the beach? Or the policy is $100k a year? Well, you'll need to factor that into your decision to build or not.

The problem ends up solving itself. If people can't get insurance, and therefore mortgages, they'll end up building on higher ground, further back from the ocean. The billionaire can still have a beach view, and the school teacher in Iowa making $55k a year won't have to subsidize it.

Thats pretty much how it is playing out,my whole thing was out of all the things taxpayers subsidize,beach front property is not one of them.

5 years ago I could have bought beach front for $450,000,easy to buy it’s the other stuff that makes it expensive.

And that’s what happens people bought it,had it for years,majior storm hits,insurance does not want to cover it then they walked away at a loss.

Now that same property is 1 million as a tear down,so at this point nobody living directly on the beach is going to qualify for any taxpayer assistance.

You are leaning more towards disaster relief as a rule,that is taxpayer funded and at some point in time everybody is going to need it,so it would be hard for me to say,Detroit flooded and instead of disaster relief they should just all move to higher ground.

Hurricane Katrina and New Orleans kicked off that discussion into high gear,before that it was,damit man some of our fellow Americans got hit by a storm,what can we do to help,because that’s how we were,they did not say screw that they live 5 states away they ain’t getting my tax dollars.

Outside of the damage caused from all the massive forest fires that have impacted humans that never used to live there where the same forest fires raged effecting nobody,it is not feasible to move millions and the infrastructure to support them to higher ground because of an event.

[Richard]

There might be something in this. Back in the 1990s, I was living in the Tidewater area of Virginia. At a boat show, there was a NOAA booth where they had a hurricane history of Virginia. Obviously, the older historical hurricanes were prior to weather station data, but diary notes from the 17th and 18th centuries showed massive hurricanes with major geological shifts in the land. One hurricane scoured a swampy area into Lynnhaven Bay. A pair of hurricanes created Willoughby Spit. One hurricane put the entire eastern shore under water while it lasted. Right after the Revolution, a hurricane closed a major inlet in NC and Edenton, NC went from one of the leading US seaports into a backwater.

Years ago, large hurricanes often hit VA, NC, and SC. Now most seem to hit Florida and Texas. Hurricane intensity and frequency seem to run in cycles independent of the general warming trend as we climb out of the "Little Ice Age".

I was stationed out of Little Creek late 70s early 80s and can really only remember 1 named hurricane in that 4 year period,I was standing on Virginia Beach watching the power of the surf as the storm rolled in.

They used to call that whole part from south Florida way past the Carolinas shipwreck ally because the warm waters from the Gulf Stream carried the hurricanes up that far.

In the past though,the blizzard of 49’ ,the hurricane that hit Galveston,there was massive events that went down in history,but not like it is now,I have been in Florida going on 40 years now,and it was not until the mid 80s that south Florida got hit by a massive hurricane,I went through 4 of them in 2004 back to back.

I agree the ones that do hit are more intense and carry more moisture with rain events all the way up and past the middle of the county where they never used to do that.

There was an island twice the size of Belle isle off of New York /New Jersey ,back in the 20s,touristy trap thing,hotels and everything,one hurricane and it completely disappeared.

I think a lot of what they call climate change is the natural flux of things that have been around for thousands of years,it was not climate change that changed the Sahara desert from a lush landscape to a barren desert,it was but man had nothing to do with it.

The sand on the beaches of Carolinas and Florida came from the Appalachian mountains over centuries.

I go fishing in the gulf,the water temps are always in the mid to high 80s consistently come august and September,all the talk about sea level rise is bunk,it has more to do with astrology and forces that change tide patterns that create flooding events,it always has.

The shifting of the planet on its axis plays more to the weather and sea levels,always has,what started the ice age?

Before Andrew hit Miami there was a 25 year lull in major storms hitting Florida,once the clean air act kicked in so did the major hurricanes.

[Gistok]

You should watch the weather channel,they have little pictures that will help you along with things like the jet stream.

Your ability to even attempt to understand things needs updating,or trips you up in your overzealous attempts to correct others.

That should be JET STREAMS...

[southen]

When climate deniers aren’t comparing themselves to Galileo or hilariously using civil rights quotes they tend to fall back on the argument that humans are incapable of changing the earth’s climate and that everything is cyclical.

Maybe there is hope then that Richard has basically said that man does have an impact on the planet and has some control over climate change. Granted he cares more about industry than breathable air but it feels like a step in the right direction to me.

[Richard]

That’s the thing about Ponzi schemes,they always work because there is enough suckers that climb on board.

What Richard has a problem with us hypocritical people looking to make themselves feel better at others expense.

You do not like industry because it can be dirty if not properly implemented.

But yet you still drive cars,buy plastic products,wear clothes,use electronic devices and want to enjoy the benefits it provides.

You have done nothing to save the planet or do anything about climate change by removing the industry out of your back yard and into somebody else’s,stop buying the products that industry provides,including the clothes on your back otherwise you do not even believe the BS you are dumping on others.

All you did was puff your chest up under the false pretense of saving the planet while the people that depended on that income are now eating dirt.

You are not supporting anything all you are doing is making places like China rich while you devolve down to the level that they were before everybody dumped their industry on them.

One would figure that somebody living in the era that was dependent on industry,got rid of it ,and now suffers the consequences of it,would understand what happens without it.

You can really become one with nature as you are laying naked under stars,eating roots or otters because you no longer have the money to buy food or shelter.

Funny how the auto manufacturers are walking back those EV launch deadlines.

Funny how places like Rivian are losing stock value by the day.

Or maybe because once the reality sets in so does the intelligence.

Come at me naked without owning anything and tell me you are saving the planet,at that point I will say congratulations,until then all you are doing is promoting the next Ponzi scheme and expecting others to be the same suckers.

As you are circling down that toilet while trying to convince yourself you are actually doing something to save the planet,multiple other states are announcing brand new billion dollar factorys being built,bringing thousands of jobs and bringing millions of revenue to those cities and states.

And guess what - They are all industry and industrial,the only new ones you have drawn are the exact same companies that caused the city to empty out in the first place.

I am sure you were out there protesting the battery factory in Michigan,you know those things that provide pollution and help destroy the planet ?

My guess was no.