Return of the Q line

[stasu1213]

There were going to be a trolley that travelled northbound on Woodward from Jefferson to 8 mile road. I had went to a few meetings 10 plus years ago. The project kept getting stalled. I think that the Q line was to extend to 8 mile road but after the cost of digging up Woodward the investors probably changed their minds. Governor Rick Snyder and Mayor Dave Bing was going to match the funding of the project to take it north to 8 mile road but at the last minute decided to pull out of the deal bring Gilbert and others back to the drawing board. I believe that there are those controlling city government including it's elected officials and planners that don't want to see reliable mass transportation in the city including South Eastern Michigan

[Gistok]

Stasu1213 you sure do have a lot of theories... but never anything to confirm them...

[casscorridor]

They definitely were not trying to sabotage transit or provide bad service. It's just that Dan Gilbert rode Portland's famous streetcar, and so it's based on that.

But while the Portland Streetcar doesn't have the reliability issues of the QLine, its peak frequency is 15 minutes, and 20 minutes off peak, and does not have 24 hour service. So it ALSO has worse service [[ignoring covid) than Woodward's buses.

A bunch of streetcars and light rail lines have been built in North America and very few of them have turned out well. Urbanists, transit planners, and politicians are all very prone to fads, and there's also a shocking amount of ignorance about successful transit systems from other parts of the world.

Streetcars [[trams) work very well in many cities in Europe, but those cities tend to be very compact and high density, neither of which is Detroit. They also seem to work okay in SF and Toronto. The reason most of the new systems have failed in America is that they are essentially one-off vanity projects rather than part of a comprehensive transportation plan. The problem is expanded further in that the US federal gov does not have a coherent strategy for funding and building urban transportation systems and instead looks for "shovel ready" projects, and just as you said, these tend to be trend driven and ignorant to global best practices.

[stasu1213]

Stasu1213 you sure do have a lot of theories... but never anything to confirm them...

My theories had been proven and my predictions had been right over the 10 years that I had been on this forum

[stasu1213]

100 plus years ago Detroit had one of the best mass transportation systems inst the world. There were street cars that traveled to Port Huron, Saginaw, Ann Arbor etc. They were abolished for highways, expressways, and cars. I have a car of mine own but I think that if citizens of Michigan including Detroit had choices to how they chose to travel then Michigan and Detroit could become a world class state and city once more

[Rocket]

100 plus years ago Detroit had one of the best mass transportation systems inst the world. There were street cars that traveled to Port Huron, Saginaw, Ann Arbor etc. They were abolished for highways, expressways, and cars. I have a car of mine own but I think that if citizens of Michigan including Detroit had choices to how they chose to travel then Michigan and Detroit could become a world class state and city once more

Few people with options are going to walk blocks or miles to a trolley,... wait for a trolley, then travel at 8-10 mph to a trolley stop that again is blocks or miles from their workplace, then finish the commute by foot, especially in a Detroit winter [[with sidewalks that don't even get shoveled).

Trolleys only seem to work well when there are no other options, and you have high population density near trolley lines, and workplaces for those same people are also near trolley lines.

70-110 years ago we had a big percentage of Detroit population living in duplexes,.. all some 8'-10' apart near trolley lines. Many workplaces such as Ford were also along trolley lines, and we had a highly motivated workforce [[I.e. a strong work ethic and little if any welfare), and few could afford cars, so the trolley system worked great.


But trying to force society to go backwards 100 years seems silly. Especially at the horrific cost that comes with light rail.

[Honky Tonk]

Few people with options are going to walk blocks or miles to a trolley,... wait for a trolley, then travel at 8-10 mph to a trolley stop that again is blocks or miles from their workplace, then finish the commute by foot, especially in a Detroit winter [[with sidewalks that don't even get shoveled).

Trolleys only seem to work well when there are no other options, and you have high population density near trolley lines, and workplaces for those same people are also near trolley lines.

70-110 years ago we had a big percentage of Detroit population living in duplexes,.. all some 8'-10' apart near trolley lines. Many workplaces such as Ford were also along trolley lines, and we had a highly motivated workforce [[I.e. a strong work ethic and little if any welfare), and few could afford cars, so the trolley system worked great.


But trying to force society to go backwards 100 years seems silly. Especially at the horrific cost that comes with light rail.

👍

[Richard]

Few people with options are going to walk blocks or miles to a trolley,... wait for a trolley, then travel at 8-10 mph to a trolley stop that again is blocks or miles from their workplace, then finish the commute by foot, especially in a Detroit winter [[with sidewalks that don't even get shoveled).

Trolleys only seem to work well when there are no other options, and you have high population density near trolley lines, and workplaces for those same people are also near trolley lines.

70-110 years ago we had a big percentage of Detroit population living in duplexes,.. all some 8'-10' apart near trolley lines. Many workplaces such as Ford were also along trolley lines, and we had a highly motivated workforce [[I.e. a strong work ethic and little if any welfare), and few could afford cars, so the trolley system worked great.


But trying to force society to go backwards 100 years seems silly. Especially at the horrific cost that comes with light rail.

As a country we spend billions on stuff that has no direct impact or gives options.

We cannot look at how it is today,it’s not really forcing people to go back 100 years,as silly as it seems we have to look at where we will be 100 years from now,and build towards that,proactive verses reactive.

We can already see where the future is heading,after the adverage wage earner pays for it they will not be able to afford what they are paying for and will have no choice but to rely on other transit options.

When gás hit $5 per gallon,public transit ridership increased up to 50% in most places,we are kidding ourselves if we do not think the winds of change will not bring that again.

Then that will become the choice,walk 6 miles to your job or walk 6 blocks to the trolly line.

If a system is not in place,people will do what they need to do and move somewhere where else that provides more options.

Cities do not plan for tomorrow,they plan 10-20-30-50 years into the future,it’s not best policy to wait until the future arrives then figure out how to deal with it because it keeps you behind in the past continuously.

Actually when you look at the past,things did what they were designed to do and served a purpose.

We cannot look at the Detroit of today and say it will never work,you have to believe in what you want Detroit of the future to be.

The Q line did exactly what it was designed to do,profitable or not, the seed was planted and give residents a physical view of what the future can bring in a larger scale.

If we want to look at what European cities are doing and use that as a comparison,they are gearing up and already establishing no vehicles in the city period.

Going back 100 years to a established trolly system,beats the hell out of going back 100 years and having to find a place to park your horse and buggy.

[Hermod]

100 plus years ago Detroit had one of the best mass transportation systems inst the world. There were street cars that traveled to Port Huron, Saginaw, Ann Arbor etc. They were abolished for highways, expressways, and cars. I have a car of mine own but I think that if citizens of Michigan including Detroit had choices to how they chose to travel then Michigan and Detroit could become a world class state and city once more

The intercity interurbans died long before expressways. One of the main causes was the city of Detroit takeover of the DUR intracity lines [[giving them gas on the renewal of their franchise). The city then kept the interurbans from using city lines to access downtown. Even when the DURoperated the city streetcars, the interurbans were forced by city charter to pick up and drop off any local passengers which seriously slowed their suburban runs.

[Hermod]

100 plus years ago Detroit had one of the best mass transportation systems inst the world. There were street cars that traveled to Port Huron, Saginaw, Ann Arbor etc. They were abolished for highways, expressways, and cars. I have a car of mine own but I think that if citizens of Michigan including Detroit had choices to how they chose to travel then Michigan and Detroit could become a world class state and city once more

<br><br>The intercity interurbans died long before expressways.&nbsp; One of the main causes was the city of Detroit takeover of the DUR intracity lines [[giving them gas on the renewal of their franchise).&nbsp; The city then kept the interurbans from using city lines to access downtown.&nbsp; Even when the DURoperated the city streetcars, the interurbans were forced by city charter to pick up and drop off any local passengers which seriously slowed their suburban runs.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;<br>

[masterblaster]

Few people with options are going to walk blocks or miles to a trolley,... wait for a trolley, then travel at 8-10 mph to a trolley stop that again is blocks or miles from their workplace, then finish the commute by foot, especially in a Detroit winter [[with sidewalks that don't even get shoveled).

Trolleys only seem to work well when there are no other options, and you have high population density near trolley lines, and workplaces for those same people are also near trolley lines.

70-110 years ago we had a big percentage of Detroit population living in duplexes,.. all some 8'-10' apart near trolley lines. Many workplaces such as Ford were also along trolley lines, and we had a highly motivated workforce [[I.e. a strong work ethic and little if any welfare), and few could afford cars, so the trolley system worked great.


But trying to force society to go backwards 100 years seems silly. Especially at the horrific cost that comes with light rail.

Phoenix, a city with more jobs-sprawl and more residential-sprawl, a metro that is poly-centered [[Phoenix, Scottsdale, Chandler, Mesa, Tempe, etc) is expanding its light rail as we speak.

You can guide development by building rapid transit. Rapid Transit spurs development around its transit stations and along the transit route [[kinda the same as freeways).

This is evident around rapid transit stations - for instance, check out all of the high density development occurring around the rapid transit station in the inner ring suburb of Malden, Massachusetts.

In the last 30-40 years, cities just as spread out or even more spread out than Detroit - places like Dallas, Houston, Los Angeles, Minneapolis-St. Paul, Cleveland, Orlando, San Jose, Sacramento, Denver, Salt Lake City, etc - have built rapid transit lines. Mixed-use development and high-density housing has popped up along the transit lines of many of these cities as well as cities like ATL, Chi, DC.

Why can't we have that here? [[Nobody will answer that question)

[Hermod]

In a thread on this topic several years ago, I opined that the way to get an express line that went somewhere was to start the Qline in Pontiac and build toward downtown Detroit. That would assure that there was always support for continued construction. As it is, Qline is a parking lot shuttle.

[southen]

In a thread on this topic several years ago, I opined that the way to get an express line that went somewhere was to start the Qline in Pontiac and build toward downtown Detroit. That would assure that there was always support for continued construction. As it is, Qline is a parking lot shuttle.

I'm fairly confident that the same "issues" the suburban communities have with the train coming from Detroit would exist for any train trying to leave Pontiac.

[renf]

I recall reading that the Grand Trunk, in about 1929, proposed building a
express commuter rail line from Detroit to Pontiac with the possibiity that
an elevated highway could be built above the rail line. I assume the
Depression ended that planning.

[Baselinepunk]

Can something "return" that never fully existed in the 1st place?

QLine is a half-assed attempt at best with a focus more a style than functionality and practicality.

[masterblaster]

Below is a Free Press advertisment from 1929, advertising housing to be built in Clawson in close proximity to the commuter rail line that was rumored to be built along the Grand Trunk Railroad:

Attachment 41653

There is one particular method of linking - where you provide a webpage link for an image - that does not seem to work [[at least for me). So I have to download the image and upload into this website. I believe the image I was trying to show above will appear:

[masterblaster]

In a thread on this topic several years ago, I opined that the way to get an express line that went somewhere was to start the Qline in Pontiac and build toward downtown Detroit. That would assure that there was always support for continued construction. As it is, Qline is a parking lot shuttle.

This idea has merit. The Detroit area revolves around the suburbs; it is a suburban-oriented metro area, where a disproportionate share of the jobs and wealth are in the suburbs. Since the 1970s, the suburbs have looked at rapid transit as charity to the city. If you start a rapid transit line along arguably the most dense and vibrant corridor in the metro - the Woodward Corridor in the suburbs - you might get the buy-in from the suburbs.

[Sandhouse]

The "Aero Gardens" image is fascinating. I had not seen it before. It is a tangible artifact of the plan to make the Grand Trunk Western a Detroit equivalent of the Burlington "triple-track raceway" from Chicago to Aurora, or the Philadelphia Main Line. Possibly it was imagined the line would have been electrified.

The picture suggests the overpass and stairs built at 15 Mile Road. The Birmingham depot was the only use of high-level platforms outside the northeast.

Other reminders are the overpasses of the railroad in Bloomfield Township, which were built to accommodate 3 or 4 tracks underneath, and the other grade separations to the south.

Like the Fisher Building, which was intended to be the first third of a much larger structure, this plan came from a time when Detroit was expected to grow enormously, and stay rich forever.

[Hermod]

At one time, Detroit had this commuter rail.

[renf]

This blog has listed cities that have recently expanded existing light
rail networks or created new ones. Should Ottawa, Charlotte, San Juan and Honolulu be added to that list. I would like to see patronage data on these new and expanded light rail systems. Cleveland also extended its light rail from Cleveland terminal to the former Cleveland Stadium

[intelligentBeing]

Was downtown yesterday and saw they were painting portions of the Qline lanes red. On Twitter I saw this tweet, turns out they may be making sections of Southbound Woodward Qline only. Picture below is from the tweet:


This will definitely help timeliness of the Qline and exactly what many other on this forum wanted. No need for Woodward to have more than 2 lanes each way for auto traffic. I think this is great. Norhtbound woodward has parking between the sidewalk and the Qline lane. Could turn the parking into 2 way bike and have the qline lane be qline only. Would still have 2 lanes + median for auto traffic. Or just expand the sidewalks like they did south of grand circus.

[Honky Tonk]

Was downtown yesterday and saw they were painting portions of the Qline lanes red. On Twitter I saw this tweet, turns out they may be making sections of Southbound Woodward Qline only. Picture below is from the tweet:


This will definitely help timeliness of the Qline and exactly what many other on this forum wanted. No need for Woodward to have more than 2 lanes each way for auto traffic. I think this is great. Norhtbound woodward has parking between the sidewalk and the Qline lane. Could turn the parking into 2 way bike and have the qline lane be qline only. Would still have 2 lanes + median for auto traffic. Or just expand the sidewalks like they did south of grand circus.

Note to self: Avoid Woodward and businesses on Woodward.

[JonWylie]

Note to self: Avoid Woodward and businesses on Woodward.

I'm sure you were down at Lululemon everyday before they painted a lane red.

[Honky Tonk]

I'm sure you were down at Lululemon everyday before they painted a lane red.

I'll PM you a picture of me wearing their bikini briefs.

[bust]

Complements, JonWylie. Making downtown more pedestrian-friendly even if by discouraging car commuting should be better, not worse, for retail.