Impeach Whitmer?

[beachboy]

bibs wrote: "It all boils down to control. Republicans tend to be bi-polar control freaks and anti regulation as well as anti big government. [...] Democrats tend to regulate until you can't do anything and love social programs. Having both sides meet some where in the middle usually produces the best legislation."

bibs is correct .. compromise is the essence of practicable politics. But with ideologues stirring the pot, and the media hysterically dramatizing every event for their profit, we have polarization. Add to that a typical lack of technical knowledge and/or nuance among politicos, and you have a recipe for disaster that oscillates among polarized political "positions", ad nauseam.

Dealing with SARS-CoV-2 virus and its symptoms/sequelae is a tradeoff limited primarily by the number of available hospital/ICU beds and the number of available healthcare workers. The number of infected cases, the number of deaths, and the economic impact of various Government-mandated measures are lagging indicators. Policy determination and "law" enforcement based on lagging indicators is a sort-of leadership-like activity that somewhat resembles driving a car by looking in the rear-view mirror. How does that accurately predict future hazards? Or does that merely support the illusion of political apparatchiks "doing something" to "beat the virus"?

Who is asking about the underlying technical models -- and who is publishing or evaluating these models and their analytical critiques in a publicly-accessible manner? How accurate are such predictive models, given known error profiles of testing procedures [[e.g., accuracy in laboratory tests vs. field testing practice)? To what extent is the polarized political apparatus consulting or employing such models? Where are these questions being addressed substantively in publicly accessible fora?

Answers to the above questions might provide insight into whether or not our politicians are leading from the perspective of forward analysis, or by keeping their eyes and minds fixated on the rear-view mirror -- or some "compromise" in-between. ​Quid putas? - or should we ask: Quo vadis?

[Danny]

The impeachment proposal of Gov. Whitmer is already dead when it reaches the Democratic Controlled Senate. Take that Republicans!

They will vote no no no!!!

[Scottathew]

It has not been disproven that it was cooked up and leaked out a lab in Wuhan.

That's not how proof works. If you make a claim, you're responsible for proving it. If you're suggesting that China made this virus and unleashed it onto the world, you need to convince me, not the other way around.

Comparing this to hurricanes forming near Africa is, in my opinion, a huge stretch.

It's not. This virus is more than likely just a natural thing that occurred. The virus mutated and jumped from animals to humans. It's akin to a natural disaster. An "act of God". The most we can do is respond to it in the best way possible. It's not China's fault that the virus started there. It's not Africa's fault that hurricanes start to form there. It's not Washtenaw County's fault when a tornado starts there and crosses over into Oakland County.

Shit happens. We can either deal with it like adults or point xenophobic fingers at boogeymen while doing nothing.

[CassTechGrad]

China, along with many other countries, is rightfully outraged at the current U.S. administration for not admitting climate change even exits, never mind acting on it. That has the potential to kill a lot more people in the long run.

15,000 years ago, just a blink-of-the-eye in geologic terms, there were no Great Lakes. Instead there was a chunk of ice covering this area somewhere between 1 mile to 2 miles thick. Think about that for a minute. The ice started receding due to global warming around that time without any help from humans. If it’s warming then it’s because it’s supposed to be warming, it’s gonna happen whether we want it to or not! This is the “world is flat” debate all over again!

[Zacha341]

Not hating on China, but they've got nerve condemning the US. Even absent a unified consensus or acknowledging of climate change, and this admins impact on EPA practices, we remain far ahead in our environment policies and practices, and need to continue to lead in these areas.

As we have under varied administrations, before Trump.

Sure China may presents clear fresh Beijing publicity photos, night skies and mountains over Hong Kong skyline a' twinkle. But, I have family and friends who spent extensive [[non-tourism) time in the inner provinces, were you don't even hear birds, no less see any!

There are cities and urban areas that experience nearly perpetual smog where you cannot see far into the short distance. You can almost 'taste' the air!

In China, mask wearing's about extremely bad air quality, and tactile grit-level particulate matter, covering buildings, vehicles, skin etc.

So like really? China judging the US on matters of the environment?

China, along with many other countries, is rightfully outraged at the current U.S. administration for not admitting climate change even exits, never mind acting on it. That has the potential to kill a lot more people in the long run.

[jcole]

Click on Detroit:
https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/...eachment-talk/

Michigan House speaker shuts door on Whitmer impeachment talk

[softailrider]

That's not how proof works. If you make a claim, you're responsible for proving it. If you're suggesting that China made this virus and unleashed it onto the world, you need to convince me, not the other way around.




It's not. This virus is more than likely just a natural thing that occurred. The virus mutated and jumped from animals to humans. It's akin to a natural disaster. An "act of God". The most we can do is respond to it in the best way possible. It's not China's fault that the virus started there. It's not Africa's fault that hurricanes start to form there. It's not Washtenaw County's fault when a tornado starts there and crosses over into Oakland County.

Shit happens. We can either deal with it like adults or point xenophobic fingers at boogeymen while doing nothing.

I'm not buying much of that at all. If the virus mutated and jumped from animals to humans as you and most others have said, it's because the Chinese were eating Bats, Pangolins, dogs, cats and god know what else. It didn't happen just because the Chinese were living on the earth with those animals.

If you believe what the Chinese government says [[I absolutely do not) they have finally banned the commerce and consumption of that type of wildlife. Obviously, the year 2020 is a too late for that.

With all the diseases that have originated from that country, any reasonable person would believe that China has a huge area of responsibility for this mess. I think your comparison of a pandemic that has traveled across the globe and killed 250,000 people in the United States, to a tornado that crosses county lines is ridiculous.

[Scottathew]

China could also look down on us for the backward things we do. They could point the finger at how a large portion of our country fights easy methods to stop the spread of the virus. It's 2020, America should know better. America should understand and accept science. America should have the moral fiber to refrain from certain activities and wear masks. But we just can't do it.

It's a two-way street. China isn't perfect and America certainly isn't either.

[SammyS]

https://www.bitchute.com/video/WTg1hvmJb7U/

[Zacha341]

Dig that! However, I still find most of their judgment questionable [[expedient to the poli-tricks of the day) and also useful to those already poised to advance any critique anti-American ala the former Trump admin dumping ground to do so [[while yet still living here interestingly).

To date: For example, we still do not know [[and doubtful that we will ever know) the complete facts as to how China 'handled' their pops relative to their COVID outbreak as to how many actually had, or have the COVID -- who lived or died, or disappeared from their population rolls!

And now they are to lecture us on what we are doing?

Fact: China is a closed, authoritarian, very highly controlled and government regulated system absent the freedoms we might want to yet retain withstanding the pandemic. While not being nil in our necessary response to this pandemic as sovereign nation-- not governed as China.

And as for science? I am NOT anti. But proffered science has not been without fault, agenda and politics. Particularly where large groups are involved; for their own good [[of course) and for other motives.

We see and acknowledge this by glancing a just tad back at history!

Detroiter's must be diligent to note where policies going forth will take us!

It will be interesting to see if Whitmere will be a two-term governor in the context and politic of all of this relative HER response to COVID going forth. And the judgment on that!

China could also look down on us for the backward things we do. They could point the finger at how a large portion of our country fights easy methods to stop the spread of the virus. It's 2020, America should know better. America should understand and accept science. America should have the moral fiber to refrain from certain activities and wear masks. But we just can't do it.

It's a two-way street. China isn't perfect and America certainly isn't either.

[CassTechGrad]

If history teaches us that “White Europeans” were the cause of the Native American Indian smallpox epidemic back in the 1820’s, then we must also teach that the “Yellow Chinese” are the cause of the American coronavirus epidemic today in 2020? Those poor refugees coming here from Europe weren’t responsible for the smallpox epidemic that followed them, they wished no harm on anyone. Just an act of God I guess but I may be wrong.

[Meddle]

Graduate?

"“We must, on this occasion, Use Every Stratagem in our power to Reduce them.”

On July 13, Bouquet, who at that point was traveling across Pennsylvania with British reinforcements for Fort Pitt, responded to Amherst, promising that he would try to spread the disease to the Native Americans via contaminated blankets, “taking care however not to get the disease myself.” That tactic seemed to please Amherst, who wrote back in approval on July 16, urging him to spread smallpox “as well as try Every other method that can serve to Extirpate this Execreble [sic] Race.”

What Amherst and Bouquet didn’t know was that somebody at Fort Pitt had already thought of trying to infect the Native Americans with smallpox—and had attempted to do it.

William Trent, a trader, land speculator and militia captain, wrote in his diary that on June 23, two Delaware emissaries had visited the fort, and asked to hold talks the next day. At that meeting, after the Native American diplomats had tried unsuccessfully to persuade the British to abandon Fort Pitt, they asked for provisions and liquor for their return. The British complied, and also gave them gifts—two blankets and a handkerchief which had come from the smallpox ward. “I hope it will have the desired effect,” Trent wrote.

Though it’s not completely clear who perpetrated the biological warfare attack, documentary evidence points to Trent as the probable culprit. As detailed in Fenn’s 2000 article, the trader later submitted an invoice to the British military for purchasing two blankets and a silk handkerchief “to Replace in kind those which were taken from people in the Hospital to Convey the Smallpox to the Indians.” Ecuyer certified that the items were used to spread smallpox, which indicates that he may have been in on the attempt as well. British Gen. Thomas Gage, who succeeded Amherst that year as colonial commander, eventually approved the payment."

https://www.history.com/news/colonis...llpox-blankets

"Smallpox did break out among the Indian tribes whose warriors were besieging the fort—19th-century historian Francis Parkman estimated that 60 to 80 Indians in the Ohio Valley died in a localized epidemic. But no one is sure whether the smallpox was carried by Ecuyer’s infected blankets or by the clothing Indian warriors had stolen from the estimated 2,000 outlying settlers they had killed or abducted.

Ecuyer’s attempt to spread smallpox among the hostile Indians was in no way disapproved. While Colonel Henry Bouquet was preparing to lead a British expedition to relieve Fort Pitt, Amherst sent him a note on June 29: “Could it not be contrived to send the smallpox among the disaffected tribes of Indians? We must on this occasion use every stratagem in our power to reduce them.”

Bouquet, another Franco-Swiss mercenary recruited because he spoke German, wrote back on June 13, “I will try to inoculate the bastards with some blankets that may fall into their hands, and take care not to get the disease myself.” Amherst replied on July 16, advocating exposure to smallpox “by means of blankets, as well as every other method that can serve to extirpate this execrable race.”

Ecuyer, in fact, had acted before receiving orders from Bouquet or Amherst."

https://www.historynet.com/smallpox-in-the-blankets.htm

I've also read speculation that the US Cavalry did the same or similar, but I can't find content about that right now.

[intelligentBeing]

Why?? What has she done wrong?

The intense Whitmer hate some people have is beyond deranged. I dont remember people coming for Snyder's throat for literally poisoning a city and forcing those unconstitutional emergency managers. Not a single peep from these rural nutjobs and conservative suburbanites.

Whitmer says you have to stay home for the good of humanity and they all lose their minds. Acting like Whitmer ate their babies.

What the hell is this response.. an anxious, infuriated blabbering of stereotypes and false equivalencies? Is it really hard to understand why the lockdown/shutdown orders are not welcomed? I get it that you want to save humanity, but really? You can't bring yourself to at least understand the other side of the argument?

I agree with meddle.

[EastsideAl]

What the hell is this response.. an anxious, infuriated blabbering of stereotypes and false equivalencies? Is it really hard to understand why the lockdown/shutdown orders are not welcomed? I get it that you want to save humanity, but really? You can't bring yourself to at least understand the other side of the argument?

I agree with meddle.

What other side? Yay, sickness and death!? Hey, let's go for 300,000!?

The side where I know people are dying of a communicable disease that spreads in indoor spaces, but I have to sell some more cheeseburgers? Where I know that being in crowded spaces with little distancing between people creates infection hot spots, but I really need to get drunk and party? Where I know a mask helps prevent infection and spread of this deadly disease, but if I wear one I might look wimpy?

I'm sorry, I've been having real trouble for 8 months now seeing this "other side" of a deadly pandemic, or the "other side" of prudent if painful public health measures to try to stop its spread and save lives. Now with an at least partially preventable second wave raging around us and getting worse [[while other countries have been able to control this situation and mostly stay open through prudent public action) I am having real trouble continuing to control my anger over people who for some reason still think there are '2 sides' to a virus.

[Meddle]

What other side?

The side that says this is not a Dictatorship. The side that says Government can advise and recommend people and businesses take certain actions, but cannot order people to stay home or businesses to close under penalty of law.

[Richard]

Even more so when you have cities and states implementing curfews in order to stop the spread,who would have known the virus spreads more easily between the hours of 10pm to 5am.

What is even worse there are well documented cases where those in power that are creating the requirements seem to feel they are exempt from following them.With a simple ... oops that was wrong when caught.

In the bigger picture,Michigan locks down,it further disrupts the supply chain for the rest of the country,I see plenty of Michigan supplied Christmas trees flowing in but the rest of the supply chain that provides parts etc fir the essential businesses in the rest of the country is broken and on hold.

The one supply chain that is not broken,are the warehouses that are filled with imported junk that was stagnant because of the tariffs.

Whats going to happen long term?

Even more are going to say,hey that part is cheap,why should I pay double the cost because it was made in the US by US workers,I can buy this cheap part and outside of the labor cost can replace it 4 times at the cost of a 1 quality part.

So even after this virus is long gone,the impact and consequences of actions today will impact tomorrow in long term negative ways.

[Jimaz]

....
I'm sorry, I've been having real trouble for 8 months now seeing this "other side" of a deadly pandemic, or the "other side" of prudent if painful public health measures to try to stop its spread and save lives. Now with an at least partially preventable second wave raging around us and getting worse [[while other countries have been able to control this situation and mostly stay open through prudent public action) I am having real trouble continuing to control my anger over people who for some reason still think there are '2 sides' to a virus.

Since when did they allow adults into this playpen?

[Maof]

What other side? Yay, sickness and death!? Hey, let's go for 300,000!?

The side where I know people are dying of a communicable disease that spreads in indoor spaces, but I have to sell some more cheeseburgers? Where I know that being in crowded spaces with little distancing between people creates infection hot spots, but I really need to get drunk and party? Where I know a mask helps prevent infection and spread of this deadly disease, but if I wear one I might look wimpy?

I'm sorry, I've been having real trouble for 8 months now seeing this "other side" of a deadly pandemic, or the "other side" of prudent if painful public health measures to try to stop its spread and save lives. Now with an at least partially preventable second wave raging around us and getting worse [[while other countries have been able to control this situation and mostly stay open through prudent public action) I am having real trouble continuing to control my anger over people who for some reason still think there are '2 sides' to a virus.

Yes sir! According to this guy, it's "rounding the corner"....going on 8 months now.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akE9hBslTBA

Meanwhile, he has more important things to do......https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...y-golf-2020-11

[CassTechGrad]

Tina Nguyen, Politico

“When Democrats refuse to chide the current protesters for violating social-distancing guidelines, their message is that the coronavirus directives are “expendable” — if the cause is something that liberals support.

The liberal justification for their argument is that ‘This is important enough,’ which is a political opinion, not a scientific or medical argument. It's just another way of saying, ‘Your First Amendment right to assemble can be restricted, but mine cannot’.”

[jcole]

The Government, both Federal and State DOES have the right to tell us what to do during a health crisis. For God sake, READ:

Never have state and federal powers been tested to the extent that we are seeing today. The federal government’s power is limited to certain circumstances. Through the Commerce Clause, which gives Congress exclusive authority to regulate interstate and foreign commerce, the federal government has broad authority to quarantine and impose other health measures to prevent the spread of diseases from foreign countries, as well as between states although that has never been affirmed by the courts. Also, the federal Public Health Service Act authorizes the secretary of Health and Human Services to lead federal public health and medical responses related to public health emergencies.Under the U.S. Constitution’s 10th Amendment and U.S. Supreme Court decisions over nearly 200 years, state governments have the primary authority to control the spread of dangerous diseases within their jurisdictions. The 10th Amendment, which gives states all powers not specifically given to the federal government, allows them the authority to take public health emergency actions, such as setting quarantines and business restrictions.
With states adopting emergency measures, there are several broad public health tools that governors can invoke. They can, for example, order quarantines to separate and restrict the movement of people who were exposed to a contagious disease to see if they become sick. They can also direct that those who are sick with a quarantinable communicable disease be isolated from people who are not sick. And, as a growing number of governors have done in recent days, states can order residents to stay at home with exceptions for essential work, food or other needs. The governors’ orders, akin to shelter-in-place directives, affect tens of millions in the affected states. Curfews are another tool they can impose.
As outlined by the National Conference of State Legislatures, emergency health laws vary by state. When a 53-year-old Kentucky man who tested positive for COVID-19 refused to self-isolate, for example, state officials there obtained a court order to force him to isolate himself. They also posted a law enforcement officer outside the man's home.
The power to quarantine and take even more stringent measures in the name of public health has belonged largely to the states for nearly 200 years. In 1824, the Supreme Court drew a clear line in Gibbons v. Ogden between the state and federal governments when it came to regulating activities within and between states. In a unanimous ruling, then-Chief Justice John Marshall cited the 10th Amendment in saying that police powers are largely reserved to states for activities within their borders.
Those police powers, he explained, include the ability to impose isolation and quarantine conditions. Marshall wrote that quarantine laws “form a portion of that immense mass of legislation which embraces everything within the territory of a state not surrendered to the general government.”
In 1902, the Supreme Court directly addressed a state’s power to quarantine an entire geographical area. In Compagnie Francaise de Navigation a Vapeur v. Louisiana State Board of Health, the justices upheld a Louisiana Supreme Court decision that the state could enact and enforce quarantine laws unless Congress had decided to preempt them. Thus Louisiana could exclude healthy persons from an infested area populated with persons with a contagious or infectious disease [[the Port of New Orleans), and that this power applied as well to persons seeking to enter the infected place, whether they came from within the state or not. The decision in Compagnie Francaise remains unchanged, and numerous courts have cited it as authority for state quarantines as recently as the Ebola outbreak.

https://www.americanbar.org/news/aba...h-to-pandemic/

[JBMcB]

What other side? Yay, sickness and death!? Hey, let's go for 300,000!?

Here's the other side, as articulated by Dr. David Nabarro of the WHO.



The short of it is, lockdowns are *devastating* to poor people. They should be used in the most targeted and sparing fashion possible. They should not be the first line of defense, but a last resort.

[Gistok]

https://www.bitchute.com/video/WTg1hvmJb7U/

Sounds like one of those bitching Karen's of the world that's "entitled".

It's not just about businesses who are closing down... it's also about a health care system that is on the brink of breaking down. Exhausted and frightened healthcare workers... not to mention the emotional strain it puts on them as Covid patients die without loved ones nearby. These people go thru their own version of PTSS every day. Just because some people decided to ignore the advice of social distancing or wearing masks.

Yeah business are sadly closing forever... but part of that can be blamed on an inept federal government that has be sitting on their asses not implementing another stimulus relief package, which might have saved some businesses.

[intelligentBeing]

What other side? Yay, sickness and death!? Hey, let's go for 300,000!?

The side where I know people are dying of a communicable disease that spreads in indoor spaces, but I have to sell some more cheeseburgers? Where I know that being in crowded spaces with little distancing between people creates infection hot spots, but I really need to get drunk and party? Where I know a mask helps prevent infection and spread of this deadly disease, but if I wear one I might look wimpy?

I'm sorry, I've been having real trouble for 8 months now seeing this "other side" of a deadly pandemic, or the "other side" of prudent if painful public health measures to try to stop its spread and save lives. Now with an at least partially preventable second wave raging around us and getting worse [[while other countries have been able to control this situation and mostly stay open through prudent public action) I am having real trouble continuing to control my anger over people who for some reason still think there are '2 sides' to a virus.

I get you want to claim moral high ground and make it seem like people who are anti-lockdown just want people to die, but the fact that you can't even come to understand the other side means you are incapable of even arguing. If you cannot even understand the opposite side of the argument how can you effectively argue against it? You argue against a fake, made up enemy. Believe it or not but the other 50% of people that don't agree with you don't want people to die. It will be impossible for you to ever have a productive conversation on this until you understand that.

To help you understand, I cannot claim this as my own but it explains the "other side" well: "Stay home and save lives" really means "I'm privileged so I can work from home and still make money. I hereby transfer the burden of herd immunity to the workers & peasants who deliver food and keep society functioning while I luxuriate in my personal digital utopia."

[SammyS]

I get you want to claim moral high ground and make it seem like people who are anti-lockdown just want people to die, but the fact that you can't even come to understand the other side means you are incapable of even arguing. If you cannot even understand the opposite side of the argument how can you effectively argue against it? You argue against a fake, made up enemy. Believe it or not but the other 50% of people that don't agree with you don't want people to die. It will be impossible for you to ever have a productive conversation on this until you understand that.

To help you understand, I cannot claim this as my own but it explains the "other side" well: "Stay home and save lives" really means "I'm privileged so I can work from home and still make money. I hereby transfer the burden of herd immunity to the workers & peasants who deliver food and keep society functioning while I luxuriate in my personal digital utopia."

Can’t disagree with you.
I think we’re at a point where we treat this like adults and allow individuals to decide on their own.
If you’re game, proceed with your life with caution. Don’t get stupid about it.
If you don’t feel safe, by all means stay home but don’t expect the taxpayer to shell out for your PJ lifestyle indefinitely. There’s got to be some motivation to return back to normal despite the constant barrage of this new normal bs. American is not and will not become a welfare state. It’s just not in our style to emulate Europe.

[Zacha341]

As a Michigander/ Detroiter, the seriousness of COVID has never been a debate. I argued many posts ago that it can be deadly as mortality numbers for example in Detroit March thru the end of April were very high.

Having said that, our response must be measured - the response balanced.

I hope governor Whitmer is urged to apprehend that [[withstanding the right-does-this-so-we-must-do-that politics). I have been fortunate that my income converted to online, with training and pre-technical skills I already had helping me step UP further into technology for distanced employability.

Everyone has not been so fortunate. Nor are all jobs the same.

Not to mention that we maintain a working infrastructure and medical services, not so-distanced, ala those toilets we need a' flushin' and lights coming on. Just to name a very few! Beyond the narrow thinking that the government can replace everyone's income with a flick of switch.

I'm vigilant in my efforts to prevent the spread of and not acquire this virus to my family, household etc. But I'm not heel-clicking interested in the 'Great Reset' tag-along policies that will likely occur beyond COVID-19, and at the behest of COVID!

Policies/ edicts that monitor if your are wearing your mask when say you are alone, driving etc or in your home with 'X' number of people at what time of day, etc. What will this 'Reset' [[as referenced in the above video and starting to be referenced in the media) cache contain, beyond the fear motive to accept such without question???

It will be interesting to what some politicians [[and the new god[[s) of 'science') may depose to the masses while set themself above and beyond their dictates. It's happened before ON BOTH SIDES!

Caveat: As I have said before I am NOT anti-science, but history shows misuse and catastrophic outcomes [[not a Trump devotee either).