Is Downtown at Risk of Going Backwards?

[313WX]

Well it's good for SE Michigan! That's for certain. Perhaps a few out of state will apply for the jobs as well.

It's good for GM.

If they're working remotely, they won't be moving to Michigan to pay income taxes, buy a home to pay property taxes, or spending money at local businesses while contributing sales taxes.

[Gistok]

It's good for GM.

If they're working remotely, they won't be moving to Michigan to pay income taxes, buy a home to pay property taxes, or spending money at local businesses while contributing sales taxes.

I have a question about that... if you live in a very expensive part of the country... say NYC, Boston, LA or San Francisco, and you get a job offer from GM [[or any company)... are they going to pay you the going talent rate for people who actually live in Michigan? Or do they pay you a higher rate because you happen to live in a high cost-of-living area of the country?

[Richard]

The few people that I know that are working remotely are paid a corporate rate,no matter where they live.

The price of rural and mountain property has doubled and tripled in the last couple of years,mostly in Oregon from those fleeing Seattle and Portland.

Even at that figure in California people were having a 3 hour drive time one way just to be able to get out far enough to afford a house.

So they have the base salary minus the drive time and automotive expense,agreed wages are higher according to location but I am thinking once remote working kicks in the company’s will argue that point and adjust accordingly.

At this point it has pushed those working remotely into a higher standard of living if they move from a high dollar city out to the country.

Just skip the suburbs,Green acres is the place to be.

[motorcity]

It's good for GM.

If they're working remotely, they won't be moving to Michigan to pay income taxes, buy a home to pay property taxes, or spending money at local businesses while contributing sales taxes.

Precisely. If they're all perpetually remote, it means nothing for Michigan, yet all the local news outlets tried to act like it was some great news.

[motorcity]

My favorite coffee shop Astro in Corktown on Michigan Ave [[next to Slow's) just announced they're closed until Spring 2021. Terribly sad.

[Zacha341]

Yeah that's a tripped-out question G! Not answered. Also, I don't know if everyone knows this, but some of these remote jobs/ positions require you to have a fairly sealed, silent, closed-door setting/ room from which to work. You must be able to manage both Zoom and Teams full-on, preferably with a dual-monitor setting [[for sure a backup computer).

Some require multi-level VPN verification and high speed internet beyond say 'hot-spotting' a mobile phone. No dogs barking in the background or a spouse/ partner walking by in the all-together or children crying! - wherever you're working from! Brave new world I've noted so far. Thankfully, my technical skills were good so as to step up into this. Whew....

I have a question about that... if you live in a very expensive part of the country... say NYC, Boston, LA or San Francisco, and you get a job offer from GM [[or any company)... are they going to pay you the going talent rate for people who actually live in Michigan? Or do they pay you a higher rate because you happen to live in a high cost-of-living area of the country?

[Danny]

COVID-19 almost made Gilberttown Detroit disappear. However Dan Gilbert has another up sleeve.

[Richard]

Employees working from home should pay 'privilege' tax' to support workers who cannot, Deutsche Bank research note says

an average salary of $55,000 at a tax rate of 5%, Deutsche Bank estimates the average person would pay more than $10 a day in tax, and raise a total of $48 billion a year.

According to the research report titled "What We Must Do to Rebuild," employees who work from home receive immediate financial benefits, including reduced costs for travel, food and clothing. "Our calculations suggest the amounts raised could fund material income subsidies for low-income earners who are unable to work remotely and thus assume more 'old economy' and health risks," Jim Reid, global head of fundamental credit strategy and thematic research at Deutsche Bank, said in the report.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/11/12/deutsche-bank-remote-workers-should-pay-work-home-tax/6262411002/


You know there is a certain group that will be loving this idea.

If WFH takes hold to that extent,I am thinking downtown office buildings would adapt and convert to apartments with a bonus office space,which may not be so bad because it would bring more permanent residents into the downtown core.

[Zacha341]

Oh my! I see that word 'privilege' being tossed about again. This is a dog whistle for hearty for chow-time [[for the bureaucrats to redistribute) as it seems to have a pin-point 'target' for now... More government rescue after filtration of said funds from the top!

Just great many will concur - until the definition of privilege starts to morph and slide downward and include various folks not expecting to be impacted [[like the increasingly struggling lower-middle class tax payer[[s)! Detroit's tax base is already so errodeded.

Good times. Yeah.....

[EGrant]

According to the research report titled "What We Must Do to Rebuild," employees who work from home receive immediate financial benefits, including reduced costs for travel, food and clothing.

"The report says the tax should only apply outside times when the government advises people to work from home, as has happened during the pandemic. The tax should also exclude low-income workers and the self-employed."

So at this point, this is all much ado about very little, as most people working from home don't actually have a choice due to government mandates. I've said it before, once it is actually safe [[not sorta safe) to return to in-person work, I think a majority of people will want to return to the office, or at least have some sort of hybrid in-person/wfh setup.

Despite what tech "thought leaders" and hastily written Forbes articles say when declaring the death of the office or New York City, I think there's a silent majority just keeping quiet about their work from home complaints until this is over.

[motorcity]

I've said it before, once it is actually safe [[not sorta safe) to return to in-person work, I think a majority of people will want to return to the office, or at least have some sort of hybrid in-person/wfh setup.

The average downtown worker bee does not enjoy their 30 to 60+ minute one-way commute downtown from the suburbs, dealing with parking, paying Detroit income tax, paying for lunch.

WFH is a new normal. Even if it's a hybrid, only come in once a week setup, companies will dramatically scale back office space and restaurants will have only a fraction of the peak lunch and dinner crowds. Not good.

[Richard]

Actually may be a blessing in disguise.

To many cities rebuilt their downtowns based on the commercial aspect,then wondered why they did not have a vibrant downtown after 5 pm,then tried to bring the residents back into the downtown,the problem then was the commercial properties were expensive by that stage.

IF WFH becomes the norm then the only option for the office towers will be to adapt and become residential,lots of office space to build out creates competition which drives down prices for residential.

IF WFH becomes the norm it could in a perverse way,be the best thing that has happened in years for the downtown,it would help create a vibrant 24/7 downtown,which in turn creates mass transit etc.

Which would actually be better for restaurants and other entertainment venues.

The more people milling about the safer it becomes and the more desirable it becomes.

Interesting enough,where I am at they are building “livable Warehouses”

That is what they call them

It is actually kinda like 2 story townhomes but with two entry doors per unit,one door enters into your separate home office and the other gives to excess to your private residence.

So you head off to work in the morning by going out one door and into the other,if a client needs to stop by,they can without entering your private entrance.

Those are rentals.

But local code dictates that if you have a home office that is used for commercial then you lose your homestead exemption,which can translate into $1000s per year depending on location.

I have a friend that does WFH she has her little office in the house but during the day nobody can make any noise in the house because of conference calls [[gov stuff) her husband finishes his work by two in the afternoon but has to hide in the bedroom if he wants to watch tv.

But she is kinda like a hermit in a box office 8 hours a day and has very little social life outside of that.

With what is going on our city workers are still WFH and it is a pain in the ass to call them because you cannot have a conversation over the kids screaming in the background.

It may sound cool and all of that but I really think a small percentage could really handle it long term,for many the office is their escape or social life.

[motorcity]

Auto show’s death is going to be a nail in the coffin of many downtown restaurants.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...se/6628078002/

[Gistok]

Auto show’s death is going to be a nail in the coffin of many downtown restaurants.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...se/6628078002/

We all know your desire to hurry to post this piece of "supposed" negativity on this forum, but your reading retention issue left out a very important detail... this is a one time show that will be outdoors, as a way to show at least some of the new cars in a safer outdoor setting.

The article also mentions the part you seem to have missed... that the NAIIS is looking forward to returning to TCF Center [[to be rebranded as Huntington Center) in 2022.

[motorcity]

We all know your desire to hurry to post this piece of "supposed" negativity on this forum, but your reading retention issue left out a very important detail... this is a one time show that will be outdoors, as a way to show at least some of the new cars in a safer outdoor setting.

The article also mentions the part you seem to have missed... that the NAIIS is looking forward to returning to TCF Center [[to be rebranded as Huntington Center) in 2022.

It's not coming back in 2022 or they would detail that it is. And two, by January 2022, it will have been three years since the last Detroit auto show. If you're a downtown restaurateur, there is no light at the end of this tunnel; this is a nail in the coffin. This horrible news does not make me happy, it makes me quite sad. Salt in the wound as our newspapers celebrate Korean and Mexican-built "American" cars as this region circles the drain.

[Satiricalivory]

^ Is this your midlife crisis? This behavior makes a lot more sense looking at it that way.

[drjeff]

It's not coming back in 2022 or they would detail that it is. And two, by January 2022, it will have been three years since the last Detroit auto show. If you're a downtown restaurateur, there is no light at the end of this tunnel; this is a nail in the coffin. This horrible news does not make me happy, it makes me quite sad. Salt in the wound as our newspapers celebrate Korean and Mexican-built "American" cars as this region circles the drain.

The auto show is less than two weeks of the year. It has little to no impact on the success of a restaurant. Even if said restaurant is packed during those two weeks it will fail if it isn't busy the rest of the year.

[Richard]

The auto show is less than two weeks of the year. It has little to no impact on the success of a restaurant. Even if said restaurant is packed during those two weeks it will fail if it isn't busy the rest of the year.

One needs to understand how restaurants actually operate to make that call.

There are slow times and busy times,if the auto show happened during a slow time when the revenue received helped carry the restaurant forward it is not indicative of a failing restaurant.

You are talking about a cash infusion that could easily equal $50,000 - $100,000 within that few days,it helps offset the cost and keep restaurants open that may be showing lower revenue returns throughout the rest of the year.

But a restaurant failing is not the concern,conventions are a quick cash infusion to the host city,that is why they are so sought after.

They dump millions of dollars into the local economy with in days,that is why other cities spend hundreds of million creating convention centers and promoting their presence.

Its not just restaurants that benefit everybody in the city does,even those employees that live in the city and work in that industry,convention set up etc.

In the longer view,all of those attendees have to eat,farmers and suppliers from across the state benefit.

All the residents of the city benefit because those events,like it or not put millions into the city coffers that the residents do not need to come up with.

See that is where the proposed climate change could benefit Detroit,they could get creative and hold the event outside because it would be comfortably warm.

Disney world has 105 minute wait lines for the rides,their convention goes on course.

9% of the tax that your city hotels charge goes to the state fund that promotes tourism which brings in additional millions,let alone the hotels that also depend on that additional influx of revenue to survive.

If one takes the stance of,they should not be in business and would fail without that revenue,then you might as well write off 50% of the hotels and restaurants in the city,which from past experiences proves that is the last thing you want.

It’s not so much as a matter of failing,it’s the lii on g term impacts and trickle down ramifications to the quality of life within the city if they fail.

Even if there is no convention this year,try and take a mini local vacation,rent a room and enjoy a local restaurant.

They are trying to survive just as hard as everybody else.

[softailrider]

The auto show is less than two weeks of the year. It has little to no impact on the success of a restaurant. Even if said restaurant is packed during those two weeks it will fail if it isn't busy the rest of the year.

I'm sure that's true, but when you combine the loss of the auto show with the cancellation of all or most convention and event business it could have a much larger impact.

[Gistok]

It's not coming back in 2022 or they would detail that it is. And two, by January 2022, it will have been three years since the last Detroit auto show. If you're a downtown restaurateur, there is no light at the end of this tunnel; this is a nail in the coffin. This horrible news does not make me happy, it makes me quite sad. Salt in the wound as our newspapers celebrate Korean and Mexican-built "American" cars as this region circles the drain.

Did you get that from the Psychic Hot Line? I thought Miss Cleo was dead?

[EGrant]

Why do we continually feed the forum troll?

[Satiricalivory]

Why do we continually feed the forum troll?

Why is the user not banned yet? Why does this troll get to be king of DetroitYES?

I know he's the same guy who keeps coming back, but he'll eventually get tired of making new accounts and new emails if he's banned swiftly, but moderation here needs to stop sleeping.

[wolverine]

As someone who has been working from home 95% of the time since March 2020, I cannot wait to return to my office regularly. I enjoy the commute, interactions, happy hours, restaurants and recreation. All of that activity makes life worth living.

Work from home simulates end-of-life daily activity. Rarely leaving the house, more sedentary, Less interactions. I certainly took up new hobbies. I have a wood / metal shop in the basement of my condo building and enjoy bicycling and spent more time cooking. Not having a commute gave me more time to do that stuff, but I'd rather look forward to coming home to do that vs being around it all the time.

I am not at all convinced of the "death of downtowns". It may take a year or more to fill vacant storefronts, but people will return to daily life and WFH will be a supplemental benefit, but not the standard.

[Gistok]

I am not at all convinced of the "death of downtowns". It may take a year or more to fill vacant storefronts, but people will return to daily life and WFH will be a supplemental benefit, but not the standard.

I absolutely agree. I worked from home up to 2 days a week when I used to work for AT&T, and I was glad to go in those other 3 days [[or 4 days).

WFH is great in winter months where it would be a long commute in bad weather. But when it came to annual appraisals and bonuses... it helps to show yourself to the boss. And if you work full time remote... when it comes to downsizing at a company... the easiest to let go are the ones you don't see. I lost 2 bosses that way... their boss was in Wisconsin!

[EGrant]

As someone who has been working from home 95% of the time since March 2020, I cannot wait to return to my office regularly. I enjoy the commute, interactions, happy hours, restaurants and recreation. All of that activity makes life worth living.

Agree as well. I know there's a lot of media coverage around the future of the office being remote work, but in private [[admittedly anecdotal) conversations I've had, people prefer being in the office, or at least a hybrid model for the reasons you mentioned. However, those still employed and working from home are a little hesitant to be overly vocal about this, as most are thankful just to have a job.