Quicken Loans Rumored to be Going Public

**313WX** · June-17-20, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

I wish I could like this comment.

I go out of my way to not do business with Comerica since 2007 because of this. It makes the TCF victory sweeter because it's like a big middle finger to Comerica.

Well, not quite.

TCF post-merger still only has half the assets that Comerica does.

**Gistok** · June-18-20, 12:57 AM

Comerica Chairman Ralph Babb Jr. [[a Texan) moved Comerica because he was a Texan. Yes Detroit Bank & Trust became Comerica, and then merged with Manufacturers Bank long before they moved.

What pissed off a lot of Detroit business people was that Babb was the head of Detroit Renaissance... the group that promoted business in Detroit... oh the irony.

As for Gilbert selling off only part of Quicken, as opposed to it all, is quite simple... he is the primary office building owner in Detroit. If Quicken were sold, then he could lose his major tenant downtown, unless he maintains control.

If he gets "10s of billions" [[as the news media is reporting) and only sells off a 49% interest... then he'll be by far the richest person in Michigan and still get to control Quicken, as well as protect the value of his vast building holdings downtown.

And if he wishes to continue to spend/invest his money in the city [[as he has mentioned)... then he will be less beholden to banking institutions for financing whatever projects he wants to build/renovate in Detroit.

**davewindsor** · June-18-20, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Comerica Chairman Ralph Babb Jr. [[a Texan) moved Comerica because he was a Texan. Yes Detroit Bank & Trust became Comerica, and then merged with Manufacturers Bank long before they moved.

What pissed off a lot of Detroit business people was that Babb was the head of Detroit Renaissance... the group that promoted business in Detroit... oh the irony.

As for Gilbert selling off only part of Quicken, as opposed to it all, is quite simple... he is the primary office building owner in Detroit. If Quicken were sold, then he could lose his major tenant downtown, unless he maintains control.

If he gets "10s of billions" [[as the news media is reporting) and only sells off a 49% interest... then he'll be by far the richest person in Michigan and still get to control Quicken, as well as protect the value of his vast building holdings downtown.

And if he wishes to continue to spend/invest his money in the city [[as he has mentioned)... then he will be less beholden to banking institutions for financing whatever projects he wants to build/renovate in Detroit.

He doesn't have to sell 100% of Quicken all at once. He can sell 49%. Sell his buildings with Quicken employees. Then sell the remaining 51%. He's sold Greektown casino, so he's already starting to divest his downtown buildings. Why is it taking so long to clear the Hudson's site? Is it just to create buzz while he dumps the rest of his Detroit portfolio and then once it's sold he gives the Hudson hole back to the city?

**Satiricalivory** · June-18-20, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

He doesn't have to sell 100% of Quicken all at once. He can sell 49%. Sell his buildings with Quicken employees. Then sell the remaining 51%. He's sold Greektown casino, so he's already starting to divest his downtown buildings. Why is it taking so long to clear the Hudson's site? Is it just to create buzz while he dumps the rest of his Detroit portfolio and then once it's sold he gives the Hudson hole back to the city?

He's literally in the process of investing billions of dollars in the city, the opposite of divesting. Selling Greektown casino [[which happened almost two years ago) does not mean he is pulling out of Detroit. These straw-man arguments your coming up with here are just plain fantasy.

**davewindsor** · June-18-20, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

He's literally in the process of investing billions of dollars in the city, the opposite of divesting. Selling Greektown casino [[which happened almost two years ago) does not mean he is pulling out of Detroit. These straw-man arguments your coming up with here are just plain fantasy.

He's investing money in the city to turn a profit for himself. He sold Greektown Casino for a profit. He's selling his flagship business Quicken Loans a second time for a profit. Call a spade is a spade for what it is. He'll eventually sell all his downtown holdings for a profit. It's fantasy to think otherwise.

**Satiricalivory** · June-18-20, 02:02 PM

Fist of all, dont try it with this "spade a spade" idiom as if what you're saying is somehow obvious and not completely convoluted speculative feelings and theories.

Second of all let me humor you and say Dan manages to sell off all his fixed up properties at massive profits to all sorts of people. That would be nothing but a wild success story for Detroit and would dismantle all the criticisms about his investment and it would be a huge slap in the face to all the people who claimed Detroit was not worth investment for decades.

I'm sure in the distant future Dan will start selling some large properties, and that would be a good thing because that's how real estate is supposed to work.

But the idea that Dan is pulling the world's biggest ponzi scheme and is just waiting for the right moment to drop everything and abandon Detroit completely and move back to Livonia is complete diatribe drivel nonsense with nothing to back it up. Like I said, pure fantasy fiction.

**iheartthed** · June-18-20, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Atticus

I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. The Comerica move was made because the CEO was a Texan and wanted to bring the company to his home. I am sure there were some incentives Comerica received from Texas for making the move, along with lower state taxes. But using that argument, every company should move there.

Having the C-suite in Dallas or Detroit does not really impact the company’s ability to grow. The move was personal, and let’s call a spade a spade, Comerica was a bad corporate citizen that made a move for minimal corporate gain [[other than to reduce the CEOs commute time).

I wish that Comerica could have remained in Detroit, but I think it does matter that the bank is located in Dallas. For instance, the city of Detroit now banks with TCF Chemical because they are located in Detroit. I'm sure Comerica picked up a lot of business by virtue of just being located in Texas. Also, there's no guarantee that Comerica would even exist had it stayed in Detroit. It was an acquisition target by larger banks.

**Gistok** · June-18-20, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

He's investing money in the city to turn a profit for himself. He sold Greektown Casino for a profit. He's selling his flagship business Quicken Loans a second time for a profit. Call a spade is a spade for what it is. He'll eventually sell all his downtown holdings for a profit. It's fantasy to think otherwise.

No... you are describing a Logic Fallacy...

Slippery Slope

In a slippery slope argument, a course of action is rejected because, with little or no evidence, one insists that it will lead to a chain reaction resulting in an undesirable end or ends. The slippery slope involves an acceptance of a succession of events without direct evidence that this course of events will happen.

**davewindsor** · June-18-20, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

Fist of all, dont try it with this "spade a spade" idiom as if what you're saying is somehow obvious and not completely convoluted speculative feelings and theories.

Second of all let me humor you and say Dan manages to sell off all his fixed up properties at massive profits to all sorts of people. That would be nothing but a wild success story for Detroit and would dismantle all the criticisms about his investment and it would be a huge slap in the face to all the people who claimed Detroit was not worth investment for decades.

I'm sure in the distant future Dan will start selling some large properties, and that would be a good thing because that's how real estate is supposed to work.

But the idea that Dan is pulling the world's biggest ponzi scheme and is just waiting for the right moment to drop everything and abandon Detroit completely and move back to Livonia is complete diatribe drivel nonsense with nothing to back it up. Like I said, pure fantasy fiction.

Who the hell are you?? You have license to put words in other people's mouths now?? A ponzi scheme is illegal. I never said Dan did something illegal. When I say a spade is a spade, I mean he's no philantrophist. He's in it to make money LEGALLY. And he has every legal right to do that. There's something seriously wrong with your head if you're suggesting I said he did something illegal here.

**davewindsor** · June-18-20, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

No... you are describing a Logic Fallacy...

Slippery Slope

In a slippery slope argument, a course of action is rejected because, with little or no evidence, one insists that it will lead to a chain reaction resulting in an undesirable end or ends. The slippery slope involves an acceptance of a succession of events without direct evidence that this course of events will happen.

You can't even comprehend what a slippery slope is. Gun control is a good example of a slippery slope. Ex. The NRA says banning automatic rifles [[A) will lead to the banning of all rifles like semi-automatic hunting rifles [[B) something completely different, so therefore we shouldn't ban any rifles. That's a slippery slope argument and a logical fallacy.

Have you ever heard of Probabilistic Logic?? If somebody sold a mortgage company in the past for a profit and bought it back at a discount, there's a good logical probability he will sell the same company again for a profit. This is not a slippery slope argument because he sold the same company in the past. It's an apples to apples comparison. He also sold other Detroit holdings in the past like Greektown Casino for a huge profit, so he's not a buy and hold investor. He buys it and flips it for a large profit. Past behavior is a good predictor of future results. There's no logical fallacy here.

**Seven&wyo** · June-18-20, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

Who the hell are you?? You have license to put words in other people's mouths now?? A ponzi scheme is illegal. I never said Dan did something illegal. When I say a spade is a spade, I mean he's no philantrophist. He's in it to make money LEGALLY. And he has every legal right to do that. There's something seriously wrong with your head if you're suggesting I said he did something illegal here.

You're either not a businessman or the world's worst businessman.....or a painfully generic one, I can't tell.

**davewindsor** · June-18-20, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Seven&wyo

You're either not a businessman or the world's worst businessman.....or a painfully generic one, I can't tell.

You don't even know what you are talking about.

**Gistok** · June-18-20, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Seven&wyo

You're either not a businessman or the world's worst businessman.....or a painfully generic one, I can't tell.

Ignore him... his posts are almost universally negative. The glass is always half empty with him...

**Satiricalivory** · June-18-20, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Ignore him... his posts are almost universally negative. The glass is always half full with him...

You mean empty? I didn't wanna say it but I'm pretty sure that person is a troll. I'm not wasting any more of my time arguing in good faith.

**davewindsor** · June-18-20, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

You mean empty? I didn't wanna say it but I'm pretty sure that person is a troll. I'm not wasting any more of my time arguing in good faith.

Ha, you don't argue in good faith.

**Gistok** · June-18-20, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

You mean empty? I didn't wanna say it but I'm pretty sure that person is a troll. I'm not wasting any more of my time arguing in good faith.

Yeah... that's the one... he once criticized Detroit cuz he couldn't find a place to use a restroom.

**davewindsor** · June-19-20, 07:57 AM

Well, I hope you guys are right about Dan and that the city does well as it benefits all of us in one way or another. I hope the momentum continues. But, usually when I hear of someone having something traumatic happen to them like a stroke, they loose a lot of their ambition and downsize their business and decide to focus more on their family and hobbies like boating, outdoors, etc. We'll see what happens here.

**Richard** · June-19-20, 09:27 AM

Or maybe somebody is mad because they did not get paroled and are having thoughts about spilling the beans and what you are seeing is preemptive damage control and limiting liabilities.

**ShadowSoarer** · June-20-20, 04:36 PM

Here is a recent interesting article that people here would be interested in:

https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/2020/06/20/quicken-loans-ipo-who-gets-rich/3197631001/

**Satiricalivory** · June-20-20, 06:43 PM

They're saying the company could be more valuable than GM which wouldn't be that surprising in today's crazy seemingly no-sense stock market.

Also they'll probably make offers to employees first.

**Richard** · June-20-20, 09:48 PM

Yet in the eyes of the Wall Street credit rating agencies, Quicken Loans is still viewed as a relatively risky business and its debt is rated as below investment grade, or what is commonly called "junk" in the financial world. It's considered too dangerous for some investors such as some pension funds.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/bu...it/3340842002/

A startup tech company that recently won a $740-million jury verdict in Texas state court against a Detroit-based title company affiliated with Quicken Loans is now going after a bigger target — Quicken Loans itself — claiming in a federal suitthat the mortgage-lending giant also is responsible for the trade secrets theft and must pay up.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/bu...ry/2605399002/

**Gistok** · June-21-20, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by Richard

Yet in the eyes of the Wall Street credit rating agencies, Quicken Loans is still viewed as a relatively risky business and its debt is rated as below investment grade, or what is commonly called "junk" in the financial world. It's considered too dangerous for some investors such as some pension funds.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/bu...it/3340842002/

A startup tech company that recently won a $740-million jury verdict in Texas state court against a Detroit-based title company affiliated with Quicken Loans is now going after a bigger target — Quicken Loans itself — claiming in a federal suitthat the mortgage-lending giant also is responsible for the trade secrets theft and must pay up.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/bu...ry/2605399002/

Did you read the article AND look at the date?

And did you notice this little paragraph?

"To be sure, legal experts say that jury awards of this size are almost always whittled down to smaller sums during appeals or in settlements. And the startup faces high legal hurdles in its argument that Quicken Loans has any liability in the case.
Experts also said that Amrock and Quicken Loans most likely have insurance policies in place that would provide some protection against large jury awards."

**enio** · June-21-20, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Did you read the article AND look at the date?

And did you notice this little paragraph?

"To be sure, legal experts say that jury awards of this size are almost always whittled down to smaller sums during appeals or in settlements. And the startup faces high legal hurdles in its argument that Quicken Loans has any liability in the case.
Experts also said that Amrock and Quicken Loans most likely have insurance policies in place that would provide some protection against large jury awards."

The jury award has since been vacated by the Texas Court of Appeals. The petitioner, HouseCanary failed to prove Amrock/Quicken stole trade secrets. My guess is the parties will try to negotiate a settlement in lieu of a second trial.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ssed-on-appeal

**bailey** · June-23-20, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by enio

The jury award has since been vacated by the Texas Court of Appeals. The petitioner, HouseCanary failed to prove Amrock/Quicken stole trade secrets. My guess is the parties will try to negotiate a settlement in lieu of a second trial.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ssed-on-appeal

I'd also add, there will be no settlement. After the verdict all sorts of fraud was revealed on the part of Housecanary by whistleblower witnesses [[multiple) at HouseCanary.

The federal suit naming Quicken is going nowhere.

The bulk of the rest of this thread and the Hudsons & Monroe?.... holy cow, what a bunch of negative nancy debbie downers. This should be a freaking fantastic story about local success blowing the doors off of an IPO [[allegedly... rumor has it...etc).

instead it's post after post demonizing the QL team and Gilbert for MAYBE [[allegedly...rumor has it..etc) testing the waters about cracking the door and inviting investors in to raise an astronomical amount of capital.

There would literally need to be about a thousand people...lawyers, execs, admin staff, spouses of key employees, and the like in on the great scam to divest from Detroit & Cleveland and run for the hills.

I think we can see by the fact the "rumors" are out there, ndas don't shut people up. you think there wouldn't be a leak about Dan's plan to strip and part out the company to vulture capital firms and leave 18,000,000+ square feet of empty office space in Detroit and Cleveland?

seriously, seek help. it can't be healthy to live this way.

**Satiricalivory** · June-23-20, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

seriously, seek help. it can't be healthy to live this way.

It's not it's almost like a disorder, I pray god can help them. Unfortunately there are so many people like this on the internet when it comes to Detroit I've found. It's sad because if this IPO was happening in literally any other city this wouldn't even be an argument. It would just go like this "wow great news! local company hitting the big time" and that would be the end of the discussion. Instead we get all sorts of wild theories and doom speculation.