Gas Prices Low! FOR NOW...

[Zacha341]

It's negatively impacted us regardless. Perhaps they took turns signing it...

Clinton signs NAFTA into law, Dec. 8, 1993

On this day in 1993, Bill Clinton, the first Democratic president in 12 years, signed the North American Free Trade Agreement into law.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...8-1993-1040789

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-...igned-into-law

[NAFTA] treaty, which President Bill Clinton signed on Dec. 8, 1993, was meant to “eliminate most trade barriers between the three countries,” as TIME phrased it back then...

www.time.com/5468175/nafta-history/

You mean the NAFTA George signed? The one that was the brain child of Republican Dave Dreier? The one ratified in Congress by Republican majorities in both houses, with the help of Newt Gingrich[[R)? The one that had more Democrats vote against than for? Lol

[MikeM]

It's negatively impacted us regardless.

But it hasn't, except in your own mind.

I remember repeatedly being told here by the conservative business owner members about how beneficial it was for not just Americans, but for democracy in general.

And Clinton didn't spend over a decade organizing diplomatic, legislative, and business support for it like the self-proclaimed business friendly, free trade supporting Republican party.

[Zacha341]

Ok. Then it can stay solely on my mind... since it's such a neutral factor LOL!

I don't do the 17 long paragraph - refutations [it's Sunday PM - bicycling time!]

Republicans Democrats - And the defense, deflection, and justifying therein.

In the meantime we see the poor, middle and working class sinking and the county spiraling downward, with more violence pulling up the rear.

That's just my mind and OPINION too.

[Mind field]

No friggin way I'm investing in a EV, when the technology still has a lot of problems that need to be solved. What happens if my battery dies on the Interstate with no charging station for miles? Are tow trucks going to be equipped with chargers on them to come give me a charge? Unknown. I'm retired, I can't afford one anyway.

Wow, posts like yours and so many others that spout EV nonsense are just cringe worthy. The knowledge is out there, a simple google search is all it takes to educate yourself. It's up to you to educate yourself on this issue, but I still see so much ignorance and plain falsehoods regarding electric vehicles.

Here are some EV facts:

1. Charging stations are becoming more and more ubiquitous. There are plenty of apps and of course trusty Google Maps that prove my point. You can get to most places in the lower 48 in an electric vehicle. It might take a little bit more planning and research on where the charging stations are, but the alternative is paying $5+ per gallon of gas. Any idiot with access to the internet can do this. Unless you have a frequent need to travel to Kangiqsujuaq, Quebec or any other super remote location far from civilization, I'd say fears about where you'll be able to charge are unfounded.

2. Not everyone can afford a Tesla. Totally understandable. GM just announced a large price cut on the Bolt. The MSRP will be in the mid 20s. Totally within reach for a large segment of the population. Of course supply chain restraints will cap the output of the Bolt and I'm sure many other vehicles, electric or otherwise. This is a function of the massive disruption the pandemic, shifting labor market, and the most significant war the world has seen in many decades have caused. It's less a function of who the president is or what political party is in power. There are plenty of other sub 40k EV models.

3. What happens if your battery dies on the Interstate and there is no charging station for miles? LOL!!!! Are you serious? You can blame your own stupidity for getting yourself stranded! Do you think electric vehicles don't have gauges telling the driver what the range is and the percent charge of the battery? It's the same thing that would happen if you ran out of gas, the only person to blame would be yourself!

If you've been at all paying attention to the world the last few years, you know we're headed for some big trouble, one way or another. I'd start getting prepared to not rely on systems that have proven semi-reliable or reliable in the past. I'm talking our energy infrastructure, food systems, and healthcare to name a few.

[Rocket]

Here are some EV facts:

1. Charging stations are becoming more and more ubiquitous. There are plenty of apps and of course trusty Google Maps that prove my point. You can get to most places in the lower 48 in an electric vehicle. ............, I'd say fears about where you'll be able to charge are unfounded.

Yes and no. Many of those charging stations listed in your app don't work, others charge at a MUCH slower rate than listed. As an example, go up to a 125kw charging port, and it may only put out 90. And if 2 other cars are plugged in nearby, that might be 30, as there isn't unlimited power coming into the transformer that feeds that row of chargers.

2. Not everyone can afford a Tesla. Totally understandable. GM just announced a large price cut on the Bolt. The MSRP will be in the mid 20s. Totally within reach for a large segment of the population.

True,
But the even bigger issue is having a place to plug in at all. You can't have your own charging port if you park on the street, or in a car port at an apartment, so really, having an electric car means having a garage. Which again means just the upper half of the population, which is why cheap electric cars don't make much sense.

And to take the $7,500 tax credit, one needs to make perhaps $40k+ a year. [Average income being = $31k in the US]. Remember 1/2 of the country pays no federal income tax at all after personal and dependent deductions. So having a tax bill left over after all your standard deductions of $7,500 or more is for the upper 40% of the country really.

Electric cars are really a toy for the rich. The increase in carbon footprint doesn't seem to be worth the novelty.
[/QUOTE]

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Wow, posts like yours and so many others that spout EV nonsense are just cringe worthy. The knowledge is out there, a simple google search is all it takes to educate yourself. It's up to you to educate yourself on this issue, but I still see so much ignorance and plain falsehoods regarding electric vehicles.

Here are some EV facts:

1. Charging stations are becoming more and more ubiquitous. There are plenty of apps and of course trusty Google Maps that prove my point. You can get to most places in the lower 48 in an electric vehicle. It might take a little bit more planning and research on where the charging stations are, but the alternative is paying $5+ per gallon of gas. Any idiot with access to the internet can do this. Unless you have a frequent need to travel to Kangiqsujuaq, Quebec or any other super remote location far from civilization, I'd say fears about where you'll be able to charge are unfounded.

2. Not everyone can afford a Tesla. Totally understandable. GM just announced a large price cut on the Bolt. The MSRP will be in the mid 20s. Totally within reach for a large segment of the population. Of course supply chain restraints will cap the output of the Bolt and I'm sure many other vehicles, electric or otherwise. This is a function of the massive disruption the pandemic, shifting labor market, and the most significant war the world has seen in many decades have caused. It's less a function of who the president is or what political party is in power. There are plenty of other sub 40k EV models.

3. What happens if your battery dies on the Interstate and there is no charging station for miles? LOL!!!! Are you serious? You can blame your own stupidity for getting yourself stranded! Do you think electric vehicles don't have gauges telling the driver what the range is and the percent charge of the battery? It's the same thing that would happen if you ran out of gas, the only person to blame would be yourself!

If you've been at all paying attention to the world the last few years, you know we're headed for some big trouble, one way or another. I'd start getting prepared to not rely on systems that have proven semi-reliable or reliable in the past. I'm talking our energy infrastructure, food systems, and healthcare to name a few.

I see you're quite the authority on EV's so much that you have to pick apart and ridicule other people's posts. Like I said, I won't be buying one anytime soon, above my pay scale. The government is pushing for them to eliminate dependence on oil.

[Honky Tonk]

I see you're quite the authority on EV's so much that you have to pick apart and ridicule other people's posts. Like I said, I won't be buying one anytime soon, above my pay scale. The government is pushing for them to eliminate dependence on oil.

Right. DTE never raises their rates. There is so much that should be done to eliminate pollution and contamination of the planet, but they're not doing it. They pick the easiest and most profitable solution and push that.

[oladub]

But the even bigger issue is having a place to plug in at all. You can't have your own charging port if you park on the street, or in a car port at an apartment, so really, having an electric car means having a garage. Which again means just the upper half of the population, which is why cheap electric cars don't make much sense.

And to take the $7,500 tax credit, one needs to make perhaps $40k+ a year. [Average income being = $31k in the US]. Remember 1/2 of the country pays no federal income tax at all after personal and dependent deductions. So having a tax bill left over after all your standard deductions of $7,500 or more is for the upper 40% of the country really.

Electric cars are really a toy for the rich. The increase in carbon footprint doesn't seem to be worth the novelty.

[/QUOTE]

I have a Bolt. There no longer are tax credits available for Chevrolets or Teslas. Rebates are now pretty much now used to stimulate the sale of foreign cars that have just entered the EV market.

As to the affordability of Chevy Bolts, I have my bill in front of me. I bought a 2020 Bolt LT with heated seats in Jan.,2021 after the 21s had come out. It had 36 miles on it. Final assembly at GM Orion Assembly, Lake Orion. MI.

$40,395 MSRP
-$2,227 employee discount [[ I was never a GM employee)
-$6447 GM card discount
-$17,839 rebates
$18,336 UPFRONT PRICE Bergstrom Chev. Madison WI
$2,006 taxes [[WI sales tax based on the MSRP)
$379 DMV registration [[includes an extra $100 to pay EV road taxes)
$297 documentation fees
$28 other fees
$21,046 WHAT I PAID [[cash balance)

My 7 year old grandson offered his very succinct new car evaluation. "It looks stubby on the outside but has a lot of room inside.' I started calling it "Stubby" but my wife likes it too much and doesn't want me calling it that. That grandson and I, of course, still use that name when my wife is out of hearing range.

That is about 33% less than the cost of the average new car purchased. You might not have a GM card and with EV demand id so high now GM isn't probably handing out generous rebates but GM just reduced the base price of Bolts significantly for the second time. Last week, "Chevrolet announced the 2023 model year Bolt EV will start at $26,595. The 2023 Bolt EUV, an SUV styling of the EV, will start at $28,195. Both prices include the delivery fee." With all the inflation, prices just came down $5,000.

You will never see this in an ad but I can beat most cars off the line. When I received a follow up call asking what I liked best about my Bolt, I said, "My radio" because without the engine noise I can hear it better than in all my previous vehicles. Road noises still exist.

[Rocket]

I have a Bolt. There no longer are tax credits available for Chevrolets or Teslas.

$21,046 WHAT I PAID

You will never see this in an ad but I can beat most cars off the line.

I dig the Bolt. My friend got one for his wife.

I haven't driven hers, but I did get to drive a per-production car years ago and it was fun.

It scoots nicely from 10-50, is fun to toss into a corner, and I LOVE the camera rear-view mirror.



But all those rebates you got sort of backs up my point.

WHY are they giving all those rebates? It's a great car, should sell like wildfire. They're not giving 50% discounts on Camaros.

I think it comes down to it being hard to plug in for most compact car buyers, as most compact car buyers don't have a garage with electricity.

It works best for people buying a second or third car. Something fun to9 drive and easy to park that they can zip around the city in.

But what the environmentalists are actually trying to accomplish is to replace all those old Caprice Classics and rusty Expeditions that lower income people tend to drive. But those buyers tend not to have garages, and the people that do just go for a Tesla or a Porsche Taycan.

[oladub]

I half agree with you. Having a garage is an advantage of home ownership. Eventually, some and then many landlords will retrofit their parking to include electric EV outlets. Some communities will zone in that requirement but i'm for the free market to move along that decision and opposed to government rebates for buying foreign cars. Really, how stupid is that?

GM will be coming out with an EV Equinox soon. That will be a great size with towing capacity. Silverado and Ford EV pickup sales are doing well. As more people buy EVs, apartment owners will be under more pressure to update their parking options. No doubt, they will more than pass than their costs.

Bolts do make superb second cars and employment commuter cars. One of my sons has a Volt and puts more miles on it than his Malibu because he uses it everywhere he doesn't need the extra seats or is driving 100 miles RT or more.

Much of my Bolt's rebates probably had to do with clearing last years models out of the dealers' lots to make room for the 21s. The recent announced 2023 $5,000 price cuts probably have to do with Bolts having a different size frame than all future GM EV's. The newer other GM EV batteries charge faster than the Bolt. It takes about 6.5 hours at night to charge my Bolt in the garage with a level 2 garage charger to 100% if I've driven 190 miles . It takes 25min to charge to 80% with a fast charger along the interstate at Walmarts if I need 120 mile of charge. That's considered slower than most other EV's.

Thanks for affirming the acceleration of the car. I suspect most people would not have any idea of how Bolts scoot along.Bolts do 0-60 in 6.5sec. Malibus with the larger engine do 0-60 in 7.5sec.. Tesla Plaids can now do 0-60 in 2 seconds but i don't have money for that.

[313WX]

Gotta say, on the subject of EVs, I'm surprised Ford beat GM to the punch with delivery of pickup trucks, given they were pretty far behind at first.

[Richard]

^ it’s risky though without them concentrating on the commercial market,all it takes is government incentives to go away,the commercial market can bear no incentive buying.

The lighting is supposed to weigh inbetween 4500 to 5200 lbs,a few states are starting to implement extra fees on vehicles over 5000 lbs in order to get people out of what is currently manufacturers bread and butter.

A majority of that small truck market is small independent businesses that buy those trucks because they can park them in their driveway.

44.1 million households are renters,I am getting ready to build a garage with an apartment on the top,750 sqft will bring $1100 per month with utilities,not sure how much more it will be if they have a EV to plug in,I know I cannot and the utility company will not upgrade the existing 200 amp feed coming in because they would also have to spend millions upgrading the transfer station,so no super chargers.


Woman on marketplace was selling her Tesla because she moved into an apartment that did not offer charging service.

So it is a matter of saving the planet when it is convenient or economically feasible to the average buyer.

The question is,would Oladub had been willing to pay the full price of $40,000 for his bolt had the incentives not been available?

The whole thing with EVs of today,they will not be the EVs of 5 years from now,so we are going to spend billions accommodating something that has the shelf life of an IPhone and it will be a constant evolution of emerging technology that will require billions more to support each time.

This whole cold Turkey thing is going to throw millions out of the market and it will cost billions more to support them as they fall further into the abiss.

Not sure why they could not have just flex fueled the hell out of everything,you cannot go cold Turkey and expect anything good to come out of it.

As we can clearly see.

A city in California has already started banning Nat gas and propane to commercial and residential,kiss Chinese restaurants good bye,you cannot cook with an electric wok.

For those in Detroit that depend on nat gas for heating because you know it is way cheaper then electricity,imagine the cost it is going to be to heat your house in the winter with electric heat,let alone the power company will not be able to support the massive increase of usage,rolling blackouts will be common.

You could buy a gas generator though.

Just out of curiosity,the city of Detroit like many other cities heat those big skyscrapers with steam provided by the city,that steam is created with Nat gas,imagine switching all of that over to electricity heat?

[Zacha341]

Don't give 'em any ideas! Next you'll have a new control-cudgel to bust folks upsides their heads regarding heating and cooling their home, privately. Told and admonished on the better civility, good and demand for you to say nothing.

We're not big AC consumers. I can personally take alot of heat, but I'm not planning to freeze in my home [we've already dialed down]. I don't want a 'lecture' from the NYT's on how I must lower heat while sleeping for example.

Right. DTE never raises their rates. There is so much that should be done to eliminate pollution and contamination of the planet, but they're not doing it. They pick the easiest and most profitable solution and push that.

[Zacha341]

Good point. We have a gas stove and could manage with electric for 'home' cooking. But ask most chefs [the coney island line-cook also] and they'll inform you that 'open' flame, and certain heat levels are best for fast-service commercial cooking and certain recipes.

...A city in California has already started banning Nat gas and propane to commercial and residential, kiss Chinese restaurants good bye, you cannot cook with an electric wok.

[Zacha341]

Dem. Sen. Debbie Stabenow brags that it doesn't 'matter' to her how high gas prices are because she drives by every station in her electric vehicle...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...drives-EV.html

Duly noted. I wish I were her! Or at least an outer-ring member of the elite royal enclosure.

From article:

Her comments came on the day the average price per gallon of gas in the U.S. reached a new high of $4.92. In Michigan the average sits higher at $5.17 per gallon, according to AAA's tracker...

United States senators make an annual salary of $174,000. Michigan's average household income is $59,234 between 2016-2020.

[Honky Tonk]

[QUOTE=Zacha341;625425]Don't give 'em any ideas! Next you'll have a new control-cudgel to bust folks upsides their heads regarding heating and cooling their home, privately. Told and admonished on the better civility, good and demand for you to say nothing. [/0QUOTE]


Interesting post. DTE has been sending emails that I can get a free smart thermostat. One prerequisite is that I have to have internet access, and the thermostat needs to be connected to the internet. This way if there's a lot of power usage in my area, my residence can get dialed down. I'm not comfortable with this arrangement, especially in Winter months. The thought of frozen or broken pipes just doesn't sit well, or freezing my pootzoo's off at night, because of a stiff wind out of the North.

[Jimaz]

Dem. Sen. Debbie Stabenow brags that it doesn't 'matter' to her how high gas prices are because she drives by every station in her electric vehicle...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...drives-EV.html

...

Don't let Daily Mail's reputation stick to you:

[Honky Tonk]

So they don't disprove it, they just give you a bunch of reasons why it "probably" ain't so. Got to hand it to the Blue Meanie Machine.

[Zacha341]

^ Let us pray.... [that the article is totally false].

Yet BEYOND that article we clearly know that the power elite are little affected by the factual news we're receiving at the gas pump!

[Zacha341]

What? You don't reflexively say yes/ sign up for/ to every NEW option/ policy [initially pushed as a benefit]? You think too much. Too much Fox-snews. Again!

Interesting post. DTE has been sending emails that I can get a free smart thermostat. One prerequisite is that I have to have internet access, and the thermostat needs to be connected to the internet. This way if there's a lot of power usage in my area, my residence can get dialed down...

[oladub]

The question is,would Oladub had been willing to pay the full price of $40,000 for his bolt had the incentives not been available?

The whole thing with EVs of today,they will not be the EVs of 5 years from now,so we are going to spend billions accommodating something that has the shelf life of an IPhone and it will be a constant evolution of emerging technology that will require billions more to support each time.

This whole cold Turkey thing is going to throw millions out of the market and it will cost billions more to support them as they fall further into the abiss.
.

I priced Bolts the year before and did not buy one. I had a piece of junk mail from my GM card that said i could receive an extra $3,000 in addition to the $3,400 I had already built up with 5% reward card over seven years. it sounded too good to be true so I went back to the dealership. It was true. Even the salesman went back to the sales manager to verify that I could uses all these incentives. He came back to tell me that for that week only, I could even collect an employee discount although I was not an employee. I couldn't turn down the deal of a lifetime when all the incentives were aligned at the dealership. So no, I wouldn't buy it at the full MSRP but if they wanted to sell it to me for less than half price, I was ok with that. There were no government incentives.I might have also considered buying an Equinox instead if they were selling one for less than half price.

I plan to run my Bolt for 15 years if I can still drive then. Battery degradation is minimal probably less than ICE engine and transmission wear over 10 years. There are fewer parts to wear out.I don't have to change oil and will never go into a transmission shop or gas station. Yes, the newer models are better because the technology is improving so fast. Who takes photos with film anymore? It's something like that. I suspect that a lot of Bolts will wind up as valued commuter and second cars. It is amazing that Chevrolet will be knocking over $5,000 off the MSRP next year with over 8% inflation. With such a demand for EV's, my suggestion is to keep an eye on 2022 prices in January after the 23s have come out. Chevrolet will have to discount the 22s still on their lot to a price thousands of dollars lower than the reduced MSRP 23s.

I found this: "Owner-occupied housing units made up 58.5 percent of total housing units, while renter-occupied units made up 30.9 percent of the inventory in the first quarter 2022."

[oladub]

Don't let Daily Mail's reputation stick to you:

I like Daily mail for opening up stories that the US media often avoid and for all the photos. But here are two other other linked sources.

“I got it and drove it from Michigan to here just last weekend and went by every single gas station—it didn’t matter how high it was—and so I’m looking forward to the opportunity for us to move to vehicles that aren’t going be dependent on the whims of the oil companies and the international market,” said Stabenow. -Green Car Reports

"On the issue of gas prices, I drove my electric vehicle from Michigan to [D.C.] last weekend and went by every gas station and it didn’t matter how high it was,” Stabenow said." -ABC News

""Today, the average gas price in America hit an all-time record high of over $4/y because . OK, that stings, but a clean conscience is worth a buck or two. It’s important. I’m willing to pay $4/gallon. Hell, I’ll pay $15 a gallon b/c I drive a Tesla"" -Stephan Colbert ABC News

I bought an EV party because it was cheaper than an ICE vehicle and partly because Joe Biden had just been elected and it was just a logical conclusion to believe that gasoline prices would increase as a result. The Joe Biden effect far exceeded my expectations.

[Honky Tonk]

What? You don't reflexively say yes/ sign up for/ to every NEW option/ policy [initially pushed as a benefit]? You think too much. Too much Fox-snews. Again!

Sigh.... you're right. Pass that bottle of green Kool-aid, will you?

[Zacha341]

^ I'm too broke to share my drinks. See you at the bus stop or at the MOGO bike station [I already have a rental account] when we finally have to give up on putting gas into our loathsome internal combustion engine vehicles.......

[Honky Tonk]