I know how to fix the roads and you do too

[Atticus]

We don't need toll roads. We're not a pass through state like others that use this model.

The bottom line is that, as I stated above, it's a funding issue.

In the mid-to-late 1990's, the gas tax was raised. This provided an adequate funding boost, and the roads began to improve. The percentage of roads in 'good' condition steadily improved for a number of years. As hard as it is to believe, there was a very brief stretch where Michigan had pretty good roads. But it was very short lived.

Unfortunately, the funding increase was not adequate for very long. Had they added three words to the bill 'tied to CPI', then the gas tax would have increased along with inflation. Let's be realistic. If the tax had gone up a penny or two per year, would anyone really have noticed? Probably not, when the price fluctuates 10-30 cents at a time. But, they didn't. So the revenue levels stayed flat, while labor and materials went up in price, meaning that each year we were able to work on fewer and fewer roads.

On top of that two other factors crippled the revenue. First, fuel economy improved, so people used fewer gallons of gas to get where they needed to go, resulting in a decline in revenues from the gas tax. Second, the Michigan economy hit a recession well before the rest of the country, which limited how much people drove.

These factors combined to make the revenues woefully inadequate not even ten years after the tax was increased.

For those who love to point out that the tax and registration fees were raised just a couple of years ago, the problem is that it wasn't enough. It raises about $1.5 billion annually, which is the amount that MDOT said they needed to get the roads into shape. The problem is that the $1.5 billion gets split up. County and local roads get a big chunk. Maintenence [[salting, etc.) eats up. In the end, the increase from a couple of years ago is providing less than half of what is really needed.

Revenue. It's all about revenue.

Exactly. And the most realistic way to raise that revenue.... is to increase the gas tax.

But even if you can convince the politicians of the facts, and I actually think a decent number of them “get it”, they still have to answer to the voters. And particularly on the Republican side, you have a large segment of the population that is hell bent on the belief that ANY new tax is ALWAYS bad. Jesus Christ himself could come down and tell them that in this case it is the right thing to do, but that segment of the GOP voters would find a way to convince themselves otherwise... with help from the Mackinac Center mafia of course.

And while that is certainly not the case with all Republican voters, it does seem to be the mantra of those in control. Which is sad, because we used to have a lot more intelligent minded people on both sides of the aisle. But with a Republican controlled legislature, Whitmer is going to have a very tough sell to get enough “R” votes for her new tax... even if it is the right thing to do.

[Scottathew]

According to the SMART Bus operating budget report, fares and route revenue account for only 10 percent of operating revenue. The rest comes from federal, state and municipal transit authority grants. I’m subsidizing your SMART bus, and I never ride it.

The packed SMART 461 bus I rode to work today removed over 20 cars off the road. Transit is the way to go. Long-distance car rides aren't.

We should spend more money on transit and less money on widening I-75 and I-94.

[sirrealone]

Exactly. And the most realistic way to raise that revenue.... is to increase the gas tax.

I actually disagree with that. As I alluded to with my earlier post, the problem that I have is that the sales tax collected at the pump goes to the general fund instead of to the transportation budget, which is the standard for a majority of states. We collect some of the highest taxes at the pump, which people love to point out, but the problem is that we don't allocate them properly.

Obviously, allocating that sales tax would leave a big hole in the budget that would have to be filled.

No, we can't cut our way to a balanced budget. Additional revenues would have to be raised.

That's why I voted for increasing the sales tax to 7% a few years back, which would have been done in conjunction with reallocating the sales tax on fuel to transportation.

But, our electorate voted it down. And I'm sure many of the same who enthusiastically voted no have had car repair bills that far exceed what they would have paid in the additional 1% of sales tax.

Ah well.

[Meddle]

We don't need toll roads. We're not a pass through state like others that use this model.

I-69 will be a major international trade route pass through.

[O3H]

[Atticus]

I actually disagree with that. As I alluded to with my earlier post, the problem that I have is that the sales tax collected at the pump goes to the general fund instead of to the transportation budget, which is the standard for a majority of states. We collect some of the highest taxes at the pump, which people love to point out, but the problem is that we don't allocate them properly.

Obviously, allocating that sales tax would leave a big hole in the budget that would have to be filled.

No, we can't cut our way to a balanced budget. Additional revenues would have to be raised.

That's why I voted for increasing the sales tax to 7% a few years back, which would have been done in conjunction with reallocating the sales tax on fuel to transportation.

But, our electorate voted it down. And I'm sure many of the same who enthusiastically voted no have had car repair bills that far exceed what they would have paid in the additional 1% of sales tax.

Ah well.

I also liked that proposal, but we were among the only 11% who both understood it, and supported it. It was way too complicated for the average Joe to understand, so they voted no. If they tried a similar proposal again, I suspect the results would be similar. That is why I think the gas tax is the easiest way to do it, because the average Joe can at least understand it.

The other issue in removing the education funding component from the fuel sales tax, is that you are basically shifting a significant portion of the education funding to the “general fund”. This scares away support from the education supporters, because it basically means a dedicated source of education money [[fuel sales tax) is now under the General Fund instead, which is controlled by a Republican Legislature, and can be tapped for “other uses” whenever a funding crisis occurs.

In theory I still like the concept of the proposal, and making all taxes collected at the pump go towards transportation..,, but politics gets in the way. That is why I argue that increasing the gas tax is still the cleanest way to do it politically.

[Scottathew]

I reached out to my state Senator and Representative to tell them that I support fixing and funding the darn roads, even if it mean increasing our taxes. If you're like-minded, I recommend you do the same.

[Meddle]

I reached out to my state Senator and Representative to tell them that I support fixing and funding the darn roads, even if it mean increasing our taxes. If you're like-minded, I recommend you do the same.

Did you tell them you'd support even if it meant they'd lose access to Matty's piggy bank?

[Ray1936]

No toll roads in Nevada and the roads are excellent. Just sayin'.

[O3H]

Everyone loves a Super PAC,.....right ?

Campaign finance reports filed shortly before the Nov. 7, 2017 election revealed
that the Morouns' Central Transport trucking firm contributed $60,000
to the Detroit Community Impact Committee,
a Super PAC that spent tens of thousands trying to defeat
City Councilwoman Raquel Castaneda-Lopez - a vocal critic of the family

[BankruptcyGuy]

Interesting fact: in Michigan, road expenditures must be evenly allocated across the state on a per-mile basis. That is, an interstate in the UP gets the same funding as an interstate in Wayne County. If you've driven in the UP, you know that the roads are in pretty good shape there.

One suggestion would be to change the allocation of resources from per-mile to based on average daily traffic. Call me crazy, but maybe we repair the roads that people use the most.

[ABetterDetroit]

Interesting fact: in Michigan, road expenditures must be evenly allocated across the state on a per-mile basis. That is, an interstate in the UP gets the same funding as an interstate in Wayne County. If you've driven in the UP, you know that the roads are in pretty good shape there.

One suggestion would be to change the allocation of resources from per-mile to based on average daily traffic. Call me crazy, but maybe we repair the roads that people use the most.

What? Use common sense??

Are you sure you don’t want to buy all the expensive crap we don't have any of needed for toll roads just to extract money from our pockets?

[Detroitdave]

I figured out how to fix the roads 6 years ago. I moved away from them..

That's hilarious ! I left Michigan way back in 83 , but I moved back in 2011

[poobert]

We don't need toll roads. We're not a pass through state like others that use this model.

The bottom line is that, as I stated above, it's a funding issue.

In the mid-to-late 1990's, the gas tax was raised. This provided an adequate funding boost, and the roads began to improve. The percentage of roads in 'good' condition steadily improved for a number of years. As hard as it is to believe, there was a very brief stretch where Michigan had pretty good roads. But it was very short lived.

Unfortunately, the funding increase was not adequate for very long. Had they added three words to the bill 'tied to CPI', then the gas tax would have increased along with inflation. Let's be realistic. If the tax had gone up a penny or two per year, would anyone really have noticed? Probably not, when the price fluctuates 10-30 cents at a time. But, they didn't. So the revenue levels stayed flat, while labor and materials went up in price, meaning that each year we were able to work on fewer and fewer roads.

On top of that two other factors crippled the revenue. First, fuel economy improved, so people used fewer gallons of gas to get where they needed to go, resulting in a decline in revenues from the gas tax. Second, the Michigan economy hit a recession well before the rest of the country, which limited how much people drove.

These factors combined to make the revenues woefully inadequate not even ten years after the tax was increased.

For those who love to point out that the tax and registration fees were raised just a couple of years ago, the problem is that it wasn't enough. It raises about $1.5 billion annually, which is the amount that MDOT said they needed to get the roads into shape. The problem is that the $1.5 billion gets split up. County and local roads get a big chunk. Maintenence [[salting, etc.) eats up. In the end, the increase from a couple of years ago is providing less than half of what is really needed.

Revenue. It's all about revenue.

If you run for office, I will vote for you. The first Republican I'd have ever voted for.

[shovelhead]

[QUOTE=Detroitdave;566004]True ,but they don't have the extreme freeze thaw cycle, and weight loads.[/QUOTE

Seems that I remember when studying about Michigan in school that the whole southeast Michigan is built over unstable swampy land and that the first “improved” highway between Detroit and the then new state Capitol at Lansing was a plank road due to the swampy areas. That could also account for some of the reason that the roads are in such bad condition in the metro area vs. other areas of the state.

[RO_Resident]

Interesting fact: in Michigan, road expenditures must be evenly allocated across the state on a per-mile basis. That is, an interstate in the UP gets the same funding as an interstate in Wayne County. If you've driven in the UP, you know that the roads are in pretty good shape there.

One suggestion would be to change the allocation of resources from per-mile to based on average daily traffic. Call me crazy, but maybe we repair the roads that people use the most.

This isn't how the state gas tax is distributed.

The bulk of funds [[~90%) go through formula.

Of the formula funds, 39.1% goes to MDOT; 39.1% goes to the 83 counties; 21.8% goes to the state's 533 cities and villages.

Both the county and city/village distributions are based on overall mileage, bonuses for major/primary miles, population [[with an increasing bonus as the population gets larger), along with other factors [[e.g., snow!).

Yes, this is a simplified overview. But does lead to some quirks--Barton Hills gets a state gas tax distribution even though there are no public roads in the community under their jurisdiction.

http://house.michigan.gov/hfa/Archives/PDF/act51.pdf

[O3H]

Do your political representatives have YOU in their mind,
or the needs of industry in their re-election coffers ?????
Which one dominates the final vote ?

POWER :
https://artba.org/government-affairs...ion-committee/

[Sandhouse]

RO is correct about the working of the formula. It is a mess of complicated details. The share for bus transit and the state's rail programs is about 9 percent, and when all the details are included, the other shares are 36% for state highways, 35% for counties, and 19% for city streets.

The county and city/village subformulas are dominated by population [[or in the counties, number of automobiles). They're more of a per capita revenue-sharing thing than mileage-based.

And we're down to 531 villages and cities. The state finally realized that Barton Hills Village and Lake Angelus had no public roads to spend their per-capita shares on, so no more for them. My heart bleeds.

[RO_Resident]

And we're down to 531 villages and cities. The state finally realized that Barton Hills Village and Lake Angelus had no public roads to spend their per-capita shares on, so no more for them. My heart bleeds.

Cool, good to know. Didn't know that Barton Hills and Lake Angelus had been cut off.

[stasu1213]

I think that there is a racket going on with these crumbling roads in southeastern Michigan. I think that cheap asphalt is being used so that the roads would crumble by next winter. Contractors, probably paid to pay by elected officials, are probably hand picked or selected for the job. That way these contractors will keep getting the job of repairing these roads every year. I had always say “follow the money”. I think that corruption is still going on but cleverly under the radar so that the FBI cant even detect it unless an inside person exposes this racket

[Meddle]

Don't know if it still is true, but it used to be that paving contractors WERE a racket .... literally. Well connected, straight from Sicily.

[O3H]

Michigan is NOT special, unique, odd, etc., etc.
The roads suck, because they were built horribly.
Other places have the same conditions and they are doing fine.

Stop accepting mediocre workmanship, materials, and timeframes.
Set the bar really, really high and force a superior product as the end result

[Atticus]

I think that there is a racket going on with these crumbling roads in southeastern Michigan. I think that cheap asphalt is being used so that the roads would crumble by next winter. Contractors, probably paid to pay by elected officials, are probably hand picked or selected for the job. That way these contractors will keep getting the job of repairing these roads every year. I had always say “follow the money”. I think that corruption is still going on but cleverly under the radar so that the FBI cant even detect it unless an inside person exposes this racket

And the tin foil hat theories are out in full force. The problem is enough of these “theories” have trickled through to the legislature that many of the reps can’t see the obvious real problem... not enough funding.

And yes, many of the roads have been “built cheaply”. It basically comes down to a decision by the road commission of... do you paint 5 roads black with a thin layer of asphalt that falls apart in a few years, or do you build 1 road correctly? And by law, they are required to keep the roads in working conditions which forces them to choose 5 cheap fixes.

Put another way, you have 5 horrible roads with large potholes that isn’t very safe to drive. The complaints are piling in. As road commissioner you can do a quick resurfacing of all 5, or rebuild 1 correctly. And if you chose to only build the one, you will get sued for knowingly neglecting the other 4.

[ambassador]

http://content.time.com/time/magazin...159579,00.html

[O3H]

I live near the {Sterling Heights & Troy} "border" with
{Warren & Madison Heights} aka 14 Mile Road

I've actually lost count how many times it has been rebuilt, resurfaced,
modified, fixed, patched, etc., etc by the I-75 interchange and Oakland Mall.

Some may remember Sennet Steel [[where Karrs Nuts resides know)
at 1200 E. 14 Mile in Madison Heights and all the heavy industry nearby.
The traffic, trucks, weight on 14 Mile was monstrous the past 40 years

It was always a rush job, 24/7 operation, wam/bam, done in 3 or 4 days

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/m...e_418682_7.pdf