Avenue of Fashion

[softailrider]

For a couple of decades before she went into a senior living apartment, I worked with a women who lived on North Cambridge, directly behind U of D high. Her view out her front door was the back of that school. I was at her house numerous times through out the years, her block and the blocks nearby were very nice, virtually all the houses were brick and well kept up.

[Towne Cluber]

While it is certainly cherry-picked to prove a point, it does look like it is Santa Rosa, just south of 8 Mile.

Except it doesn’t prove his point at all, which makes the claim even stranger. “Bombed out ghetto” yet there aren’t any abandoned homes, burned down homes, empty lots with debris, abandoned cars, garbage, etc. Just a non-descript working class street with reasonably maintained lawns and homes. There are many neighborhoods exactly like it in the city and suburbs alike. He tried to pick perhaps the worst looking street in that area and it still didn’t work.

[canuck]

Except it doesn’t prove his point at all, which makes the claim even stranger. “Bombed out ghetto” yet there aren’t any abandoned homes, burned down homes, empty lots with debris, abandoned cars, garbage, etc. Just a non-descript working class street with reasonably maintained lawns and homes. There are many neighborhoods exactly like it in the city and suburbs alike. He tried to pick perhaps the worst looking street in that area and it still didn’t work.

Well yes, I was expecting bham to put up an altogether less savory reference photo. That street looked fine, not a a Robinwood setting, for sure. A lot of streets in Montreal are a lot rougher looking, and yet not ghetto. Of course, a lot of neighborhoods in Detroit may put up a nice front and yet have a lil' red ridin' hood tag of disapproval on them.

That street looked pretty well tended to me.

[Bham1982]

That street looked fine, not a a Robinwood setting, for sure.

Robinwood is an empty street and therefore much safer. You need people to have crime. The highest crime neighborhoods in Detroit are occupied.

A lot of streets in Montreal are a lot rougher looking, and yet not ghetto.

There is no Montreal neighborhood remotely as rough, obviously. Montreal has like 5% of the violent crime rate of Detroit and no real concentrations of disorder. Detroit undoubtedly has bigger homes/lots, as it was historically a much richer, sprawlier city.

Of course, a lot of neighborhoods in Detroit may put up a nice front and yet have a lil' red ridin' hood tag of disapproval on them.

That street looked pretty well tended to me.

I don't see what you find "nice" or "well tended" about tumbledown shotgun homes, overgrown grass and vacant/abandoned lots. But, in any case, NW Detroit is also full of solid brick home neighborhoods much nicer-looking than this one, yet still absolutely awful.

This neighborhood of brick homes built for the upper middle class sits a half-mile west of Livernois, yet homes are being shot up:

https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...me/2415887002/

Here's the neighborhood:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4373...7i16384!8i8192

If these homes were 2-3 miles north, in Pleasant Ridge or Huntington Woods, they'd be worth at least 400k. In Toronto, off Yonge, they'd be around $1 million. Looking at Zillow they go for about 30k, or about the same as a Subaru Outback.

Spacious brick single family homes in the middle of a major metro area in the richest country on the planet don't go for 30k unless there are serious issues.

And here's a citywide crime map. Note that Livernois is a big dividing line:

https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits...ime-in-detroit

[Bham1982]

For a couple of decades before she went into a senior living apartment, I worked with a women who lived on North Cambridge, directly behind U of D high. Her view out her front door was the back of that school. I was at her house numerous times through out the years, her block and the blocks nearby were very nice, virtually all the houses were brick and well kept up.

While I don't doubt this is true, what's the point of this anecdote?

I've never been a victim of crime in Detroit, despite doing some pretty inadvisable things during my younger years. So what? It doesn't mean that Detroit isn't a shockingly violent city.

NW Detroit has had crazy high crime and social disorder for 40 years now, and didn't really get rundown looking until very recently. It still has less abandonment than really anywhere else in the city, and obviously the housing stock was built for the upper middle class. But when homes are going for basically nothing, and crime is through the roof, anecdotes are useless.

The black middle class mostly left NW over the last 20 years, so who is gonna buy those homes? Why would any sane person with kids and a decent paycheck willingly live in a shooting gallery instead of some nice neighborhood in, say, Farmington Hills?

[Cincinnati_Kid]

While I don't doubt this is true, what's the point of this anecdote?

I've never been a victim of crime in Detroit, despite doing some pretty inadvisable things during my younger years. So what? It doesn't mean that Detroit isn't a shockingly violent city.

NW Detroit has had crazy high crime and social disorder for 40 years now, and didn't really get rundown looking until very recently. It still has less abandonment than really anywhere else in the city, and obviously the housing stock was built for the upper middle class. But when homes are going for basically nothing, and crime is through the roof, anecdotes are useless.

The black middle class mostly left NW over the last 20 years, so who is gonna buy those homes? Why would any sane person with kids and a decent paycheck willingly live in a shooting gallery instead of some nice neighborhood in, say, Farmington Hills?

Do you say anything positive about Detroit? You continue to live in your suburban bubble, and slam anything or any place outside your enclave. I happen to know plenty of people who have lived in NW Detroit for over 40 years, and have never been victimized by any major crime, no break-ins, car thefts, or armed robberies. Maybe, a vandalism every now and then, but you get that in the suburbs as well. As a matter of fact, I was driving by the area you're talking about a week ago, and it doesn't nearly look as bad, as you make it out to be.

[Meddle]

I just did a quick virtual wander up Monica around Chippewa and Pembroke. Images are dated 2018. It's not great, but certainly not terrible. Smaller homes, either brick or vinyl. Homes all appear well kept, yards mowed and trimmed. Generally newer vehicles in driveways.

Looks like my two neighborhoods did in the 70s and 80s.

[gpp1004]

The black middle class mostly left NW over the last 20 years, so who is gonna buy those homes? Why would any sane person with kids and a decent paycheck willingly live in a shooting gallery instead of some nice neighborhood in, say, Farmington Hills?

Because many people don't want to live in a suburb that is [[opinion - not fact) unwalkable, primarily low-density residential, and not particularly charming architecturally. When my husband and I moved back to the area from Seattle in 2017, we tried awfully hard to buy in the city. We're both reasonably sane, plan on adopting children in the next two years, and do well for ourselves financially - typical guppies. But banks don't like to approve mortgages for anything north of 500k in Detroit [[which is its own problem). So we ended up just outside of the city in a lovely home that was approved no problem. Farmington Hills - and the rest of Oakland county was never on our radar because it [[again, opinion - not fact) sucks.

[gnome]

I drive our church’s bus. Many of my riders come from the area being discussed. I spend a time driving up along Livernois pretty often.

It is much better.

It will get more betterer

Can’t everyone get along enough to agree that it was once almost completely empty, now it isn’t.

Isn’t that good news? Can’t you please be pleased that good news is indeed good?

What is wrong with you people?

[Seven&wyo]

What's wrong with Bham?

[Cincinnati_Kid]

What's wrong with Bham?

Amen. He's the "Voice of Doom" when pertaining to Detroit, or any other locale than Birmingham. I've seen some crappy houses on 14 Mile between Woodward and Greenfield that look just like the mixed frame and brick houses in Detroit and other areas, that cost $ 2 - 300,000 or more. But he doesn't mention those.

[stasu1213]

The area between Eight Mile and Pembroke such as Stoepel had seen better days. Streets off 7 mile such as Ohio, Greenllawn, Monica etc have density of homes but influx of section 8. I’m not crapping on those who are on section 8 but a few haves tendency of not obeying the rules and allowing undesirables to live with them. I had noticed that teenagers are setting up basketball hoops in the middle of the street. Something that wasn’t allowed in the 80s. I would say if I were a techie working downtown making $70,000 or above I would live in a house in the area instead of paying the high rent downtown with nothing to do grocery shopping at. I would catch the bus to work

[Bham1982]

Because many people don't want to live in a suburb that is [[opinion - not fact) unwalkable, primarily low-density residential, and not particularly charming architecturally.

But the vast majority of Detroit [[city proper) is "unwalkable, primarily low-density residential and not particularly charming architecturally". If you live at 7 & Meyers in NW Detroit, and then move to 9 & Coolidge in Oak Park, it isn't like there's any difference re. these factors.

Walkability might even be a bit more feasible in apples-to-apples burbs, because sidewalks are better maintained, fewer strays and less safety issues. 9 Mile is certainly more walkable than 7 Mile.

And I highly doubt that most people value such factors over safety, schools, taxes, neighbors and access to employment, retail and services. If they really value such things, they wouldn't be in one of the most sprawltastic places on the planet.

[Bham1982]

Amen. He's the "Voice of Doom" when pertaining to Detroit, or any other locale than Birmingham. I've seen some crappy houses on 14 Mile between Woodward and Greenfield that look just like the mixed frame and brick houses in Detroit and other areas, that cost $ 2 - 300,000 or more. But he doesn't mention those.

Actually, this is kinda the point. Bham has lots of dumpy, trash homes around 14 Mile and just east of Woodward. NW Detroit has lots of amazing, grand homes built for the wealthy. Guess which homes cost multiples more?

This is the market saying that NW Detroit west of Livernois is extremely undesirable. The demo that held up property values for 40 years [[middle class blacks) is mostly gone. They're now in West Bloomfield, Southfield, Lathrup, Farmington, Novi, etc. Black folks value good schools, safety and services just like everyone else.

[dtowncitylover]

Actually, this is kinda the point. Bham has lots of dumpy, trash homes around 14 Mile and just east of Woodward.

HUH?! Those homes are not dumpy or trashy. Small, brick bungalows some are but they're not dumpy. Please find me one home on Eton, Pennistone, or Sheffield that's dumpy or trashy. Lord...

They would probably cost a little less in RO or Berkley, but wtf?!

I would love a brick in Bagely though. Always have. Those homes are amazing. I never cared to live downtown or midtown. Give me a brick in a neighborhood any day. Would love a home in that Bham neighborhood too.

[masterblaster]

But the vast majority of Detroit [[city proper) is "unwalkable, primarily low-density residential and not particularly charming architecturally". If you live at 7 & Meyers in NW Detroit, and then move to 9 & Coolidge in Oak Park, it isn't like there's any difference re. these factors.

Walkability might even be a bit more feasible in apples-to-apples burbs, because sidewalks are better maintained, fewer strays and less safety issues. 9 Mile is certainly more walkable than 7 Mile.

And I highly doubt that most people value such factors over safety, schools, taxes, neighbors and access to employment, retail and services. If they really value such things, they wouldn't be in one of the most sprawltastic places on the planet.

1) The neighborhood west of Livernois, east of Wyoming, between 6 Mile and 8 Mile, is called Bagley [[named after the elementary school). This neighborhood has housing stock on par with Rosedale Park and East English Village EXCEPT the area north of Outer Drive. Your cherry-picked link showing the lesser-quality homes north of Outer Drive was not representative of what the majority of the neighborhood looks like.

2) Your article is about a shooting on Appoline Street, a street which is more than 1.5 miles west of Livernois. People in this neighborhood are not walking to the Avenue of Fashion, so it doesn't represent the customer base.

3) West 7 Mile is walkable, lined with storefronts all the way from University of Detroit-Jesuit west to the city limits, while 9 Mile Road in Oak Park is mostly lined with houses and stripmalls.

[Bham1982]

HUH?! Those homes are not dumpy or trashy. Small, brick bungalows some are but they're not dumpy. Please find me one home on Eton, Pennistone, or Sheffield that's dumpy or trashy. Lord...

Home "niceness" is subjective, but I think most would agree there are plenty of dumpy homes on the south end of Bham. They're mostly vacant, investor owned sites, many of which will be redeveloped into million dollar properties.

And there are lots of streets that aren't "dumpy" but basically have the same housing as Hazel Park, South Warren or the East Side of Detroit. Certainly not conventionally "nice".

You honestly think these homes are desirable for families?

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5367...7i13312!8i6656

In 15 years these homes will probably all be gone, but for now, this is an extremely modest street, with nothing going for it outside of location.

[Towne Cluber]

...I think most would agree there are plenty of dumpy homes on the south end of Bham. They're mostly vacant, investor owned sites, many of which will be redeveloped into million dollar properties.

Once again, a complete exaggeration.

[dtowncitylover]

You honestly think these homes are desirable for families?

Yes. Because millenials aren't having 7 children and baby boomer empty nesters are looking to downsize and the neighborhood is green and safe.

[jcole]

Home "niceness" is subjective, but I think most would agree there are plenty of dumpy homes on the south end of Bham. They're mostly vacant, investor owned sites, many of which will be redeveloped into million dollar properties.

And there are lots of streets that aren't "dumpy" but basically have the same housing as Hazel Park, South Warren or the East Side of Detroit. Certainly not conventionally "nice".

You honestly think these homes are desirable for families?

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5367...7i13312!8i6656

In 15 years these homes will probably all be gone, but for now, this is an extremely modest street, with nothing going for it outside of location.

Does this block qualify as "dumpy" too? If so you have a warped sense of "dumpy"
https://goo.gl/maps/p5F3AKEpCUP2

[softailrider]

While I don't doubt this is true, what's the point of this anecdote?

I've never been a victim of crime in Detroit, despite doing some pretty inadvisable things during my younger years. So what? It doesn't mean that Detroit isn't a shockingly violent city.

NW Detroit has had crazy high crime and social disorder for 40 years now, and didn't really get rundown looking until very recently. It still has less abandonment than really anywhere else in the city, and obviously the housing stock was built for the upper middle class. But when homes are going for basically nothing, and crime is through the roof, anecdotes are useless.

The black middle class mostly left NW over the last 20 years, so who is gonna buy those homes? Why would any sane person with kids and a decent paycheck willingly live in a shooting gallery instead of some nice neighborhood in, say, Farmington Hills?

I don’t agree with your assertion that my post was anecdotal. I wasn’t referring to a specific house or even a specific block around the U of D High School area. I was trying to make the point that the area around the school is not slummy at all. I’m not saying that area is the dream location for everyone in the world. I’m also not saying that there aren’t some really shitty northwest side neighborhoods. As far as who would want to live there, sane or otherwise, I have no idea and I really could care less.

[Bham1982]

Yes. Because millenials aren't having 7 children and baby boomer empty nesters are looking to downsize and the neighborhood is green and safe.

No. Families with money, and few or no children, don't want a "forever house" the size of their college dorm room. These homes are around 950 ft., which is smaller than the typical basement in a new construction home.

Average size of a new construction home in the U.S. is not that far from 3,000 sq. ft. Teardowns along the Woodward corridor are usually 2,500 sq. ft.+. This is the market demand.

And "green and safe" pretty much covers 90% of metro Detroit. So why would you pay 300k for a home on cinderblocks that looks straight out of rural Alabama, and where all the value is in the land? The lots would be more expensive if you removed the home [[because anyone buying the property is factoring in demo costs).

Also, Bham has high property taxes and you're mostly paying for schools, so doesn't make much sense for empty nesters. You could get twice the home for your money a few blocks south, across 14 Mile, and pay less in taxes.

[Bham1982]

Does this block qualify as "dumpy" too? If so you have a warped sense of "dumpy"
https://goo.gl/maps/p5F3AKEpCUP2

This block would not be very desirable for familes with options, and I think you you know this. These are tiny, modest homes, with OK schools and services.

The postwar bungalows are perfectly decent, but I think everyone knows they're not the top choice these days. The typical buyer probably wanted a bungalow in RO, but went with similar but more affordable Clawson.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

No. Families with money, and few or no children, don't want a "forever house" the size of their college dorm room. These homes are around 950 ft., which is smaller than the typical basement in a new construction home.

Average size of a new construction home in the U.S. is not that far from 3,000 sq. ft. Teardowns along the Woodward corridor are usually 2,500 sq. ft.+. This is the market demand.

And "green and safe" pretty much covers 90% of metro Detroit. So why would you pay 300k for a home on cinderblocks that looks straight out of rural Alabama, and where all the value is in the land? The lots would be more expensive if you removed the home [[because anyone buying the property is factoring in demo costs).

Also, Bham has high property taxes and you're mostly paying for schools, so doesn't make much sense for empty nesters. You could get twice the home for your money a few blocks south, across 14 Mile, and pay less in taxes.

I would think it would be the exact opposite, especially for seniors and empty nesters. As they get older, they don't want or need a 3,000 sq ft house anymore. Who needs the constant cleaning and maintenance ? Most look to downsize, but I would think a little bigger than the 950 sq feet that you mention. That's a sardine can. Millennials are priced out of the market, and most are putting off home buying. They'd rather rent and are populating areas that are self contained with stores and restaurants that are within walking distance from where they live, like Midtown in Detroit.

[archfan]

No. Families with money, and few or no children, don't want a "forever house" the size of their college dorm room. These homes are around 950 ft., which is smaller than the typical basement in a new construction home.

950 sq ft - that's double the size of a tiny house. Sell them to hipsters looking to upgrade!