Why can't Detroit annex neighbouring cities to regain its population?

[stasu1213]

I think the idea of giving back old redford to redford and parts of the eastside to grosse pointe and harper woods would be a good for cutting down detroit's deficet. It would be hard to get the renters out of those homes in the areas giving back to their rightful owners. It would save detroit a lot of dough. As far as the mentally ill, drug addicts and aggresive panhandlers are concern; take them to the countryside. Building a rehabilitation community with agriculture and let them learn how to plant and grow food. Have counselors and mental health doctors there to see after them and help bring them back to reality again. Also make them clean up their own apartment, small home or whatever they would be living at in the countryside. Maybe they would be right to comeback into the meanstream. Many people whom are homeless doesn't fit into this category and shouldn't be shipped out there. Just the ones who fit under the categories above

[hudkina]

Yeah. That was called a sanitorium...

[tangerine]

Talk about rewarding failure. I think Detroit should be federalized as its problems are too great for the State to handle let alone the adjacent counties.

[professorscott]

This is an interesting discussion but there is an air of unreality about it.

I have seen metropolitan style government in other places, and no doubt it has its benefits. However, the Detroit area has precisely as much chance of becoming a unigovernment metro region as I have of becoming Pope.

Look, so many things are working against it: Michigan's unflagging insistence on home rule, the carcinogenic racism that continues to pile-drive our economy and liveliness, the institutionalized corruption of so many municipal agencies. Imagine someone in Livonia or Rochester Hills waking up and finding that there was to be a tri-county municipal government! To paraphrase other posts, they would leave scorch marks on the pavement on their way to One Million Mile Road.

Since you can't force people to live in your Unigoverned Greater Metro Detroit Regional Thingy, and there's not exactly a huge supply of jobs keeping people here, such a thing [[if it were even possible, which it's not) would just drive more people to move to Atlanta or Indianapolis or San Diego or Vancouver or wherever the hell everybody is moving to nowadays.

If I'm wrong, no prob; come visit me in the Vatican and we'll do lunch.

The Prof.

[davewindsor]

Imagine someone in Livonia or Rochester Hills waking up and finding that there was to be a tri-county municipal government! To paraphrase other posts, they would leave scorch marks on the pavement on their way to One Million Mile Road.

Why?

And, if not a tri-county unigovernment, why not consolidate Wayne County with Detroit to rename Wayne County the new City of Detroit like they did with Louisville, Kentucky? You'd now have a city with 2 million people like it was back in the 50s and there's gotta be significant tax savings in a Wayne County-Detroit consolidation. I look at the Wayne County website and see a Wayne County Sheriff's Department that handles narcotics enforcement in the City of Detroit and then there's a Detroit Police Narcotics Unit. There's a Wayne County Parks and Rec Dept. and a Detroit Rec Department. There's gotta be significant tax dollar savings by consolidating all those departments into one entity.

[REL]

Dave,

Your "significant tax dollar savings" [[I'm sure you pronounce it DOH-ler) would be a short-term benefit, if at all. It'd quickly disappear with a fleeing tax-base.

[crawford]

Why?.

Are you serious? There was a huge drop in inner suburban property values in the 1970's following court-ordered busing. Once the busing was overturned on appeal, the property values rose again.

Can you imagine what would have happened if the ruling were upheld?

Yes, correlation does not imply causation, but it's generally agreed that [[given the fact that the only municipalities which experienced property value drops were within the proposed metropolitan school district) that what was perceived as the threat of metro-wide ghetto schools was enough to send people to other communities.

And, if not a tri-county unigovernment, why not consolidate Wayne County with Detroit to rename Wayne County the new City of Detroit like they did with Louisville, Kentucky? .

This would be even worse, because instead of forcing people to move from generally desirable areas like Oakland County, you would be inviting people to move from generally undesirable areas in Wayne County.

And it's much easier to abandon Wayne County than abandon the entire tri-county area.

[davewindsor]

Are you serious? There was a huge drop in inner suburban property values in the 1970's following court-ordered busing. Once the busing was overturned on appeal, the property values rose again.

Can you imagine what would have happened if the ruling were upheld?

Yes, correlation does not imply causation, but it's generally agreed that [[given the fact that the only municipalities which experienced property value drops were within the proposed metropolitan school district) that what was perceived as the threat of metro-wide ghetto schools was enough to send people to other communities.

Forced bus service is gonna cause significant declines in property values?! Come on! Where do you pull this stuff from?

This would be even worse, because instead of forcing people to move from generally desirable areas like Oakland County, you would be inviting people to move from generally undesirable areas in Wayne County.

And it's much easier to abandon Wayne County than abandon the entire tri-county area.

Consolidating Detroit with Wayne County is gonna cause everybody to leave Dearborn and Grossee Pointe? Give me a break! How do you figure? There's no Berlin Wall. If they were gonna move, they'd have moved long ago.

[crawford]

Sending Bloomfield Hills kids to ghetto schools 20 miles away wouldn't impact Bloomfield property values?

Please, Dave, this has to be satire...

Why don't you go to Grosse Pointe Shores and ask the residents how they would feel about sending their kids to Finney High instead of GP South? I'm sure they really don't care one way or the other...

[davewindsor]

Sending Bloomfield Hills kids to ghetto schools 20 miles away wouldn't impact Bloomfield property values?

Please, Dave, this has to be satire...

Why don't you go to Grosse Pointe Shores and ask the residents how they would feel about sending their kids to Finney High instead of GP South? I'm sure they really don't care one way or the other...

Sending Bloomfield Hills kids to ghetto schools 20 miles away?! What are you talking about? First, Bloomfield Hills is in Oakland County, not Wayne County. Most people in Bloomfield Hills send their kids to private schools anyway. Second, why would they change school districts and send them 20 miles somewhere else if they are already going to schools in Bloomfield Hills and Grosse Pointe Shores? The county can still operate those same schools. Why would they waste money on extended school bus service? It doesn't make any sense and these are unlikely scenarios. There are other ways to save money through consolidation I don't see this as being a valid argument against a City-County consolidation.

[hudkina]

That's the reason why even I don't think they should touch the school districts. While they might consolidate a few of the smaller districts, I think keeping most of the school districts relatively intact is important. Busing was probably one of the biggest single "mistakes" in causing white flight. In fact, I think breaking DPS up into smaller districts would probably be better than consolidating all the local districts. And even if there was consolidation into one unified district, there is absolutely no way I would support busing. [[And I'm all for breaking down racial barriors.)

Also, only consolidating Wayne County with Detroit isn't a good idea. For one, it defeats one of the biggest purposes of the unigov: city/suburban cooperation. Wayne County and Detroit don't have as big of a strained relationship as Detroit and Oakland/Macomb Counties. For a unigov system to truly be effective you need to include the entire Tri-County area.

And the whole idea that people in Rochester Hills will pack up and head for "100 Mile Rd" is silly. For one, little would change in the area. The only difference is that they would see a drop in their taxes.

[Danny]

There is a big difference between Charter Townships and non charter townships, Charter Townships have fixed boundaries that make it difficult to annex. Non charter townships are more easily annexed by neighboring communities the rules to how annexation happens varies on where the township is located in relation to the city, the number of people that live in the annexed area, etc. The Non Charter townships is the reason Ann Arbor keeps expanding its size. But Communities like Westland cannot annex Canton. Charter Townships pay less tax to the system and basically get subsidized by the cities in the County when it come to things like Roads, Sewers, Etc.

Yes, but look at this further information:

In order for a township to be immune against annexation it MUST have their sewage treatment under the state boundry commission requirements: Redford TWP.[[ for example) is having trouble keeping up with the contracts with Detroit Water Dept. when or after those water rates gone up to 20% and it will be going up some more later when Mayor Bing has his way. Also under the Public Act 425 of 1984 a Charter TWP. can transfer piece of the neighborhood to a city by means of 425 agreement which could last up to 50 years before that area can be 'de-annexed' to a charter TWP. or either the two. So far Redfor TWP remains in danger of annexation.

[Danny]

Like has been stated, the best option would be to create a Metropolitan Government out of the Tri-County area. It would be a "city" of some 4 million people making it the second largest incorporated place in the U.S. after New York.

If that were to happen, I think there might actually be more opposition from city leaders, considering the suburbs would basically rule Detroit [[they'd have about 75% of the vote), and L. Brooks Patterson would probably be the "mayor". The "new" city would also become somewhat more fiscally conservative and tougher on union excesses.

Benefits would include:

--stemming the endless stream of unneeded residential/commercial development along the rural fringe, while focusing on strengthening what we already have.
--consolidation of governmental services, thereby reducing taxes needed to pay for 100s of mayors, police chiefs, etc.
--economies of scale when it comes to contracts for city services, again reducing the tax burden of most residents.
--less regional in-fighting and more cooperation on bringing new developments and jobs to the region.
--better national image as far as social/economic statistics are concerned. For example, Detroit would no longer be the "most dangerous city". In fact, it would actually have one of the lowest crime rates in the country, when compared to other cities.

While most Metro Detroiters [[city and suburbs) are ignorant homers, I think if proponents campaigned long enough and effectively enough as to the major benefits we all would see under a metropolitan government, I think a majority of residents in the region would agree to it.

For the most part people are only concerned that they live in a safe, clean neighborhood, with good schools, and a good mix of low taxes and quality city services. If suburban residents realize that they would see virtually no difference at the neighborhood level but have a lower tax bill, I think many would be rational enough to forego the idea of an "independent enclave".

This ideal will not work for these reasons:

1. The issue to race:

Detroit remains to this day 82% black while the suburbs remains 90% white. If the suburbs joined Detroit, blacks will become the minority only having limited community power in their ghettohoods and following stricter city requirements of keeping their ghettohoods or their property up to city codes ot face fines. Detroit has a larger poor and low-income black community. Most of the black residents can't even keep up their property values, so when city inspector comes to check up on their properties and its not up sticter code their property will be soon dissapear. Blacks in Detroit will have less voice against a majority white Detroit government and that includes in the political sector. 'Invicible segregation' will be norm in Detroit city living.

2. city politics:

If Detroit and suburbs combined into a metropolis, most of the political voice will be from white candidates. White residents of Detroit will support more to a white candidate for city council or mayor while less white Detroiters support a black cadidate to city office. Black residents of Detroit will support more to a black candidate for city council or mayor while less black Detroiters support a white candidate to city office.

3. tax base

If Detroit and suburbs combined that propert tax base will be to high to manage. Some folks especially the poor and low-income will be able to pay higher property tax rates. The high tax base will effect water, sewage, fire, police, schools and city clean up. New York City took that risk when it annex all have county boroughs but the result is big city with a very high property tax base in some neighborhoods.



Today, let Detroit and suburbs stay as is, the people black, white etc.. move whatever that want to move for their safety and comfortability.

[detmich]

I love you Danny!

[davewindsor]

Race might be an argument against a uni-metro government, but I don't think you could use it with a Wayne County-City consolidation. It's a more even black/white split. I look on the Wayne County website under elected officials http://www.waynecounty.com/mygovt/mygovt.aspx and I see half of the six elected officals are black [[including the County Clerk, Sheriff and Prosecutor). I look at department heads and only three of the ten pictures are white.

This ideal will not work for these reasons:

1. The issue to race:

Detroit remains to this day 82% black while the suburbs remains 90% white. If the suburbs joined Detroit, blacks will become the minority only having limited community power in their ghettohoods and following stricter city requirements of keeping their ghettohoods or their property up to city codes ot face fines. Detroit has a larger poor and low-income black community. Most of the black residents can't even keep up their property values, so when city inspector comes to check up on their properties and its not up sticter code their property will be soon dissapear. Blacks in Detroit will have less voice against a majority white Detroit government and that includes in the political sector. 'Invicible segregation' will be norm in Detroit city living.

2. city politics:

If Detroit and suburbs combined into a metropolis, most of the political voice will be from white candidates. White residents of Detroit will support more to a white candidate for city council or mayor while less white Detroiters support a black cadidate to city office. Black residents of Detroit will support more to a black candidate for city council or mayor while less black Detroiters support a white candidate to city office.

3. tax base

If Detroit and suburbs combined that propert tax base will be to high to manage. Some folks especially the poor and low-income will be able to pay higher property tax rates. The high tax base will effect water, sewage, fire, police, schools and city clean up. New York City took that risk when it annex all have county boroughs but the result is big city with a very high property tax base in some neighborhoods.



Today, let Detroit and suburbs stay as is, the people black, white etc.. move whatever that want to move for their safety and comfortability.

[Danny]

Race might be an argument against a uni-metro government, but I don't think you could use it with a Wayne County-City consolidation. It's a more even black/white split. I look on the Wayne County website under elected officials http://www.waynecounty.com/mygovt/mygovt.aspx and I see half of the six elected officals are black [[including the County Clerk, Sheriff and Prosecutor). I look at department heads and only three of the ten pictures are white.

You have to be aware that you're writing to many Americans have a strong FEAR! of another race invading their way fo life, a strong FEAR of higher taxation without representation. The United States does not have a strong Socialist government unlike Canada, but we have to make due with our strong democratic and republican political regime. Your ideal for a combine municipal city of Detroit by county will not work due to social issues of race, politics and hugh tax base. The folks in Toronto felt comfortable of the supercity. Detroit and suburbs will feel confortable of their own cities.

[davewindsor]

The folks in Toronto felt comfortable of the supercity. Detroit and suburbs will feel confortable of their own cities.

The folks in Toronto never felt comfortable with a supercity. The city held a referendum and voted 3 to 1 against amalgamation, yet the Premier of Ontario did it anyway for the greater good and to make the area more tax competitive. The City of Chatham-Kent located an hour's drive from Windsor/Detroit was amalgamated with 110,000 people and 1,715 square miles. The City of Windsor is only 46 square miles and was never amalgamated because the premier's party got the boot after serving two terms. But, guess what, the cities that did amalgamate are doing a lot better now than cities that didn't like Windsor with uncompetitive tax rates versus other areas of the province. I don't see how else Detroit is ever gonna recover and balance its books unless it starts moving forward and consolidating their services.

[Danny]

The folks in Toronto never felt comfortable with a supercity. The city held a referendum and voted 3 to 1 against amalgamation, yet the Premier of Ontario did it anyway for the greater good and to make the area more tax competitive. The City of Chatham-Kent located an hour's drive from Windsor/Toronto was amalgamated with 110,000 people and 1,715 square miles. The City of Windsor is only 46 square miles and was never amalgamated because the premier's party got the boot after serving two terms. But, guess what, the cities that did amalgamate are doing a lot better now than cities that didn't like Windsor with uncompetitive tax rates versus other areas of the province. I don't see how else Detroit is ever gonna recover and balance its books unless it starts moving forward and consolidating their services.

Well folks in Toronto got their wish. They voted for a supercity and they get it. I'm not sure how Windsor be a supercity. If it did wait until the tax base goes. Plus, I don't think that Windsor would become a supercity just because it want to compete with Detroit. Building an emerald 'cityeqsue' downtown that would be bigger and higher than Downtown Detroit skyline which looks the remnants of the Great Depression.

[Retroit]

Danny, how did you pass English class? Could you please proof-read your posts before submitting? I'm sure you have something important to say, but I can hardly figure out what it is.

[Crumbled_pavement]

And the whole idea that people in Rochester Hills will pack up and head for "100 Mile Rd" is silly. For one, little would change in the area. The only difference is that they would see a drop in their taxes.

No, nothing would change but the perception of the area. Perception is reality, meaning if people perceive an area as going downhill they will react the same way as if the area is actually going downhill. If a woman perceives her life is in danger [[because she sees a stranger walking closely behind her) she will react the same way as if there is an obvious danger to her life. Just calling this whole area Detroit would create the perception that the whole area will become all the things that are undesirable about Detroit, which includes a dysfunctional city council, high crime, poor performing schools, high taxes, etc, etc. These things don't need to happen, people just need to believe strongly they will happen, and guess what? They'll leave skid marks on their escape to leave Michigan. This thinking is deeply embedded into many people's pysche and thinking because something doesn't actually happen will prevent people from perceiving it to happen is not realistic.

[Quonset Hut]

And the whole idea that people in Rochester Hills will pack up and head for "100 Mile Rd" is silly. For one, little would change in the area. The only difference is that they would see a drop in their taxes.

How? Efficiencies of eliminating all those municipal departments? Prove it - use the cities that expanded like this and give proof. I have to think that any combination of city suburb will immediately jack up the former suburb rates to make up for "all those years of neglect."

[Detroitnerd]

Fear of a Black Planet

[REL]

What? 90% of the suburbs are white?

[Retroit]

I think some of you are over-estimating the negative reaction of suburbanites to a takeover of Detroit [[I refer to it as a takeover of Detroit rather than an annexation of the suburbs to Detroit, because that is effectively what it will be). I think many suburbanites would like to restore order in Detroit as this will reduce the crime in the city and suburbs. If white suburbanites are as racist as some of you think, wouldn't improving conditions in Detroit stop the flight of blacks from Detroit and into their suburbs?

As for lowering costs, this is already the case. Many suburban communities already have partnerships to reduce costs. It is cheaper to use Detroit's water and sewage facilities than to build one for each suburb. Police forces are already working across boundaries to catch criminals. Etc.

[Danny]

Danny, how did you pass English class? Could you please proof-read your posts before submitting? I'm sure you have something important to say, but I can hardly figure out what it is.

Retroit 25% of the American people are illiterate and using spelling daemons. Get used to it. Americans are using slang and codespeak and not King's English.