Transit after Amazon Flop ?

[Junjie]

I don’t think it will be anymore expensive than what’s available today. A more relevant question may be, why would you want to buy one? The beauty of self driving cars is that it can drive it’s ass away once you’re done with it hense, less parking lots. You may want to start thinking about reclaiming your garage as living space.

Where will it drive its ass to? Since work hours and rush hour will still exist, there won't be demand for all the cars used between 7:30 - 9 and 4:30 - 6 to go take someone else on a trip. It'll just have to drive itself to a parking lot or garage, same as today.

And unless you want to wait every morning for your public taxi ride to show up [[pain in the ass), people will still want to buy their own cars. It's not like it's going to be profitable for some company to keep a huge fleet of cars roaming around the exurbs to respond on a moment's notice.

Also, keep in mind that a huge fleet of empty cars roving around everywhere so that you don't have to wait for pickup means, by definition, constant terrible traffic since you have both the cars with people in them you had before and now also all the empty cars required to quickly get to anybody who needs a ride rather than parked cars in garages. So either your travel time or your wait time just exploded compared to owning a personal car today, but at least you can look at your phone I guess.

[Richard]

That is all it is,a fancy uber,without having to pay a driver.

If they get creative they could make them like transformers,they could be a park bench or trash can while they are waiting for the call.

But we know the discussion in the future will be about dedicated lanes for these things,and weather they will be in the medium or curbside.

[Bham1982]

There's no "Amazon flop". Detroit was never in the running for Amazon.

And transit is like #400 in the region's priority list. It isn't like Metro Detroit has a mobility problem, or people are desperate for alternatives to the automobile.

[dtowncitylover]

And transit is like #400 in the region's priority list. It isn't like Metro Detroit has a mobility problem, or people are desperate for alternatives to the automobile.

What a fantasy you live in, Bham. It must be nice...

The fact that Metro Detroit is chained to their cars, we have what seems like 50 different transit agencies, and our region is absolutely clueless about what to do despite the fact other cities are doing it well, is a sign that we have a mobility problem. In a major metro area, this isn't normal.

[dtowncitylover]

You are leaving out over half of Wayne county who have no use for mass transit!

I bemoan anyone who says exurban/rural county-ers don't have use for transit. No one is calling for 80ft articulated buses running down Napier or 32 Mile every 7-10 minutes. That would be stupid. But how about better connections via commuter rail? Or a SMART Park and Ride from Wixom or Novi to Southfield?

[SammyS]

Where will it drive its ass to? Since work hours and rush hour will still exist, there won't be demand for all the cars used between 7:30 - 9 and 4:30 - 6 to go take someone else on a trip. It'll just have to drive itself to a parking lot or garage, same as today.

And unless you want to wait every morning for your public taxi ride to show up [[pain in the ass), people will still want to buy their own cars. It's not like it's going to be profitable for some company to keep a huge fleet of cars roaming around the exurbs to respond on a moment's notice.

Also, keep in mind that a huge fleet of empty cars roving around everywhere so that you don't have to wait for pickup means, by definition, constant terrible traffic since you have both the cars with people in them you had before and now also all the empty cars required to quickly get to anybody who needs a ride rather than parked cars in garages. So either your travel time or your wait time just exploded compared to owning a personal car today, but at least you can look at your phone I guess.

They’ll start mining Bitcoin. See, there’s a solution to every problem. :P

But seriously, my knucklehead alone can think of many ways to resolve the cyclical nature of traffic today IF it will even exist.

https://youtu.be/iHzzSao6ypE

Here are a few:

-Flexible work hours
-Mobile offices [[your day has started the minute you get picked up)
-Virtual daisy chained pods [[think Disneys Magic Mountain cluster management system)
https://youtu.be/pz2BXUcYgKc

....that’s all for now, gotta get back to work

[Bham1982]

What a fantasy you live in, Bham. It must be nice...

The idea that transit is a major issue in Metro Detroit is utter fantasy. We probably have the easiest mobility of any 5 million metro on the planet.

Our transit is overwhelmingly very poor people with no other options, and our investments in transit completely ignore the actual transit-dependent market. It's basically 20-somethings from Macomb Township playing "big city" for a few years or the exurban visitors to Tigers games thinking it's cool to ride the choo-choo in circles, "almost like it's a real city".

Now if someone came up with reasonable ideas for greater mobility for the poor, I would be supportive, but there's zero interest in this. It's all focusing on useless stuff like Q Line and People Mover. No one cares about improving the Dexter bus and the like.

[O3H]

MetroTimes published : It’s an unfortunate reality for the residents of roughly 60,000 households in Detroit, of whom 80 percent are black, who have no access to an automobile.

~ snip~ the 106,000 daily riders along DDOT’s three dozen routes, and 35,000 daily riders on SMART’S 43 routes ~snip~

YEP, everyone has cars - money for gas + insurance - no need for anything else

[dtowncitylover]

The idea that transit is a major issue in Metro Detroit is utter fantasy. We probably have the easiest mobility of any 5 million metro on the planet.

Our transit is overwhelmingly very poor people with no other options, and our investments in transit completely ignore the actual transit-dependent market. It's basically 20-somethings from Macomb Township playing "big city" for a few years or the exurban visitors to Tigers games thinking it's cool to ride the choo-choo in circles, "almost like it's a real city".

Now if someone came up with reasonable ideas for greater mobility for the poor, I would be supportive, but there's zero interest in this. It's all focusing on useless stuff like Q Line and People Mover. No one cares about improving the Dexter bus and the like.

Yeah no. The whole debate is both how to service the city AND connect the entire metro area and move past our dependency on the car. THIS IS A MAJOR ISSUE. And if you don't think it is, you are living in a fantasy.

There is both a need for the inner city poor to connect to job centers with a transit system/agency that is on time and affordable AND the need for suburbanites/exurbanites to come into the city without the use of a car for the night to keep congestion is at a minimum. Nothing is wrong with either.

The way to solve the #16 problem? R.T.A. One [[g-d effing) agency that supports both city and suburban transit scheduling and fare collection and can, with one voice, get more money from the federal government. [[And don't, anyone, give me this "but the federal government won't give us money" BS. Trump is a temporary problem. Transit is a long term goal. And if we're set up for a Democratic or at least sympathetic Republican administration who are all willing to hand out real dollars for investment, then we better damn well be ready).

The problem is no one cares, therefore it's a MAJOR ISSUE.

[Bham1982]

Yeah no. The whole debate is both how to service the city AND connect the entire metro area and move past our dependency on the car. THIS IS A MAJOR ISSUE. And if you don't think it is, you are living in a fantasy.

The fact that the Q Line is our region's major transit project directly contradicts your claims. There's no regional desire for improving transit; there's only a desire to project a nominally "big city" image because the region's residents have no concept of actual transit functionality.

If the region cared about transit, the People Mover would be shut down and sold for scrap, the Q Line would have been laughed out of town, and all the major urban corridors would have fast, frequent, reliable bus service. Instead our transit priorities are based on what Marge from Macomb vaguely remembers last time she was in a real city.

[dtowncitylover]

The fact that the Q Line is our region's major transit project directly contradicts your claims. There's no regional desire for improving transit; there's only a desire to project a nominally "big city" image because the region's residents have no concept of actual transit functionality.

If the region cared about transit, the People Mover would be shut down and sold for scrap, the Q Line would have been laughed out of town, and all the major urban corridors would have fast, frequent, reliable bus service. Instead our transit priorities are based on what Marge from Macomb vaguely remembers last time she was in a real city.

Not saying you're wrong. BUT THAT'S THE ISSUE.

MARGE FROM MACOMB NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND WHY TRANSIT IS IMPORTANT AND WE'VE FAILED OVER THE PAST 50 YEARS.

And yeah, the major point of QLine, in case it went over head, was so that Marge from Macomb, Ollie from Oakland, Doug from Detroit, and Wendy from Wayne could see what transit is. That it's more than just DDOT or SMART or the People Mover. It can be an economic catalyst, it can be helpful in navigating the center city more than a bus, and it's nothing to be scared about.

Jesus, 10 fucking years of me learning about the issue, going to meetings, and trying to understand, and all for what? FUCK. THIS. REGION. FUCK PATTERSON. FUCK HACKEL. And fuck Duggan for not calling out these two asshats and their WRONG opinions and beliefs.

[Richard]

When you say the #16 problem does that meen the 16 pound problem or the 16 hashtag problem?

But yes it is everybody's problem,who's to say that it will not have more ridership then expected,less wear and tear on the roads = less funds required to fix them,if you were an insurance company in Detroit and mass transit was implemented would you raise rates or would you lower rates to entice people back into the cars.

The whole problem with mass transit support is the mindframe of I will never use it so I do not support it,if that is the case then should those who do not utilize the highways get a prorated tax cut,because they are being charged for things they are not useing.

I do not think it is a stretch to implement park n rides in the sales package,for what each individual is being charged when a tax is increased one ride pays them back.

It would be tough to find a self supporting mass transit system that relies on strictly ridership,in this country let alone the world,they are all multi funded from several sources.So that is a non argument.

But it goes back to there must be a plan and unilateral support before you can even present it.

Where is the "compassion " for those underprivileged fellow citizens now?

You are a blue city,I think it would prudent to drop the hate towards the currant administration and use it to your advantage,nothing wrong with dangling the carrot in hopes that you might become a red city.

No need to be throwing people under the bus or train.

[dtowncitylover]

When you say the #16 problem does that meen the 16 pound problem or the 16 hashtag problem?

Sorry, the Dexter bus is the Number [[#) 16 Bus. Unless, you were kidding.

[Richard]

Lol,thanks for the clarification,I was being facetious with the whole # and hashtag thing I was not sure if it was a number,pound or hashtag,some of us are slow to adapt.

[swingline]

You are leaving out over half of Wayne county who have no use for mass transit!

People thinking that they "have no use for mass transit" is the biggest transit obstacle we have. This sad but widely-held sentiment expresses precisely what the RTA millage proponents negligently failed to address in the 2016 election. Reflective of our selfish what’s in it for me culture, the sentiment ignores the obvious macro-economic, region-wide benefits of effective mass transit. The benefits are easily observed in the roaring regional economies of New York, Boston, Chicago, Washington DC, Toronto, Paris, London, Munich, etc. Also see the benefits in lower tier cities like Denver, Seattle, Portland and Minneapolis.

Unlike in these successful cities, millions of people in SE Michigan believe that if they won’t actually use transit, they shouldn’t have to pay anything for it. If only that same logic could apply to schools, roads, police protection and parks, taxpayers could save a lot more money, right? All those millions of folks in those successful cities who have good jobs and increasingly valuable homes and who don’t use transit but pay even a dime in taxes for it are just dupes. We’re smarter than that.

[softailrider]

Not saying you're wrong. BUT THAT'S THE ISSUE.

MARGE FROM MACOMB NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND WHY TRANSIT IS IMPORTANT AND WE'VE FAILED OVER THE PAST 50 YEARS.

And yeah, the major point of QLine, in case it went over head, was so that Marge from Macomb, Ollie from Oakland, Doug from Detroit, and Wendy from Wayne could see what transit is. That it's more than just DDOT or SMART or the People Mover. It can be an economic catalyst, it can be helpful in navigating the center city more than a bus, and it's nothing to be scared about.

Jesus, 10 fucking years of me learning about the issue, going to meetings, and trying to understand, and all for what? FUCK. THIS. REGION. FUCK PATTERSON. FUCK HACKEL. And fuck Duggan for not calling out these two asshats and their WRONG opinions and beliefs.

That’s a lot of fuck words for one paragraph.

[dtowncitylover]

That’s a lot of fuck words for one paragraph.

I might've watched Pulp Fiction last night plus how frustrating this region is.

[Richard]

When I look at the RTA schedule of events,dates and times and was working a 9 to 5 job,I would find it hard to attend and support.

Most folk would find it hard to attend 2 pm meetings,a lot of support is probably being lost that way.

Another poster made a comment in another thread about the city's pessimistic views,is the city of Detroit a leader or a follower?

Is Macomb the cities mommy? You kinda have to create a nucleus of support and branch out from there gaining support but to me without evening meetings that potential supporters can attend your kinda driving a rail spike in with a tack hammer and getting frustrated.

Mass transit is like saving old buildings,in every city it is a major and constant battle so you really cannot say the region is screwed up and get frustrated,places like Minneapolis,Seattle and every other city that has implemented mass transit that was either dormant for 50 years or non existent has gone through the same exact battle.

If somebody is adamant about not seeing mass transit it is miss directed energy to try and change their mind,you will not do it.You just need more on board that support then those who do not,if you do not know who those are or do not provide a way to compile that,there are probably more that support then one thinks but if you cannot tap that or direct it onto one track.

It takes signatures,the more you have the more the odds increase,the more time one spends trying to beat somebody over the head with a bus tire trying to change their mind the less time you have to spend on resolutions.

Your job is to gain support,their job is to erode that support,it's the game that you will not be able to change and they thrive on your frustration because they know frustration overpowers the ability to see different options.

So pass them by,concentrating on the support that may be there but is being missed.

Like they say,concentrate on winning the war and not the battle.

Push comes to shove,tell everybody that if they do not support transit options then the currant president will win another term,next day you will have a 200 mile long train pulling into town loaded with,Buses,streetcars and even hundreds of imported rickshaws.

[ABetterDetroit]

Not saying you're wrong. BUT THAT'S THE ISSUE.

MARGE FROM MACOMB NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND WHY TRANSIT IS IMPORTANT AND WE'VE FAILED OVER THE PAST 50 YEARS.

And yeah, the major point of QLine, in case it went over head, was so that Marge from Macomb, Ollie from Oakland, Doug from Detroit, and Wendy from Wayne could see what transit is. That it's more than just DDOT or SMART or the People Mover. It can be an economic catalyst, it can be helpful in navigating the center city more than a bus, and it's nothing to be scared about.

Jesus, 10 fucking years of me learning about the issue, going to meetings, and trying to understand, and all for what? FUCK. THIS. REGION. FUCK PATTERSON. FUCK HACKEL. And fuck Duggan for not calling out these two asshats and their WRONG opinions and beliefs.

With all due respect. In your 10 years of study did you ever really look at what gets passed by the voters to raise the funds for this issue?

California doesn’t count. They had proposition 13 reform in 1978.

http://t4america.org/maps-tools/stat...ng/2016-votes/

[archfan]

I might've watched Pulp Fiction last night plus how frustrating this region is.

Yeah, you should wait at least 18 hours after Pulp Fiction before posting anything. I hope you didn't need to send any work emails.

[stasu1213]

I had been saying on this site for years that the Big 3 still hinders Southeast Michigan from having any form of dependable mass transit. Hackel and L Brooks are probably control by the companies to keep mass transit from extending into their counties. There are probably some elected officials for Detroit who are hindering convenient mass transit in the city but will side with more parking structures, meters, and high insurance

[Honky Tonk]

Not saying you're wrong. BUT THAT'S THE ISSUE.

MARGE FROM MACOMB NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND WHY TRANSIT IS IMPORTANT AND WE'VE FAILED OVER THE PAST 50 YEARS.

And yeah, the major point of QLine, in case it went over head, was so that Marge from Macomb, Ollie from Oakland, Doug from Detroit, and Wendy from Wayne could see what transit is. That it's more than just DDOT or SMART or the People Mover. It can be an economic catalyst, it can be helpful in navigating the center city more than a bus, and it's nothing to be scared about.

Jesus, 10 fucking years of me learning about the issue, going to meetings, and trying to understand, and all for what? FUCK. THIS. REGION. FUCK PATTERSON. FUCK HACKEL. And fuck Duggan for not calling out these two asshats and their WRONG opinions and beliefs.

And now they can see what it is, a failed attempt @ pseudo mass transit. I retract my earlier posts, it doesn't even make a good parking lot shuttle. It just sort of sits there in grid-locked traffic and toots it's horn.

[O3H]

Build it right, and they will come.
I used to take the train from the middle of Long Island into the "city".

Owning a car is expensive,prohibitively so, for far too many people.


I find it funny that many Detroiters will drive to a """lot""" and walk.
Actually walk to an event, imagine that, in the city, in Detroit.

[bust]

Build it right, and they will come.

Yes, Design Matters! And I don't mean choice of paint color.

Owning a car is expensive,prohibitively so, for far too many people.

And there are many more who can afford a car but would rather not always have to drive. Others who don't want to drive at all. If that seems like a foreign concept, that's because those kinds of people choose to live somewhere else.

I find it funny that many Detroiters will drive to a """lot""" and walk. Actually walk to an event, imagine that, in the city, in Detroit.

Problem is they pass by practically nothing except parking lots, parking garages, and car traffic along the way.

[bust]

In this instance I was beyond delighted that our messed up public transportation came to the rescue! We dodged a gigantic bullet. Amazon would have sucked our very limited resources to zero, while providing less than zero benefits for the city.

There are great reasons to criticize the competition Amazon set up among cities in order to collect the greatest possible tax breaks and other advantages. Especially when Amazon is already kicking [[other companies in the) ass without them.

But less than zero benefits?

There would have been great benefits for Detroit to receive tens of thousands of highly educated Amazon employees and their families. They'd have brought fresh perspectives and lots of talent that is in short supply. They'd have made good income and had extra money to spend. There'd have been lots of new jobs to fulfill their wants and needs.

Do you see that somehow as a negative? I certainly don't.