Amazon Looking for a new HQ - Detroit-Windsor Bid Rejected

[emu steve]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.81799e120df4

Article that companies should move jobs [[think HQ2) to were the workers are rather than try to force workers to pay expensive housing, commutes, etc. [[and increased salary). None of it increases worker productivity.

[casscorridor]

Here are some potential sites:

Packard Plant
Uniroyal site next to Belle Isle
MCS
New Center parking lots

any would be a coup for the city.

[313WX]

Name a Sunbelt city that is associated with an institution 40 miles away, in a different metro area.

Nice try with your attempt to twist my words. I said DESTINATIONS, which isn't limited to an institutuion.

So again, I ask why should Detroit be held to a different standard?

U-M isn't a Detroit school.

U of M is in Metro Detroit. I'm pretty sure Amazon said METROPOLITAN AREA. Did you not read the RFP?

[Bham1982]

Nice try with your attempt to twist my words. I said DESTINATIONS, which isn't limited to an institutuion.

OK, then name a DESTINATION [[what does this even mean?) that is 40 miles away from a Sunbelt city that is directly associated with that city.

So again, I ask why should Detroit be held to a different standard?

What "standard"? What are you even talking about?

U of M is in Metro Detroit. I'm pretty sure Amazon said METROPOLITAN AREA. Did you not read the RFP?

U of M is NOT in metro Detroit. Per the U.S. Census, Metro Detroit does not include Ann Arbor. No one in AA considers themselves to be "Detroit".

[aj3647]

U of M is NOT in metro Detroit. Per the U.S. Census, Metro Detroit does not include Ann Arbor. No one in AA considers themselves to be "Detroit".

Yeah, I live in Ann Arbor and I don't know what the hell 313WX is talking about here. Absolutely no one considers Washtenaw County to be "Metro Detroit." Are Dexter and Chelsea suburbs of Detroit also?

[Gistok]

Yeah, I live in Ann Arbor and I don't know what the hell 313WX is talking about here. Absolutely no one considers Washtenaw County to be "Metro Detroit." Are Dexter and Chelsea suburbs of Detroit also?

The nine county area designated by the OMB as the Detroit–Warren–Ann Arbor Combined Statistical Area [[CSA) includes the Detroit–Warren–Dearborn MSA and the three additional counties of Genesee, Monroe, and Washtenaw [[which include the metropolitan areas of Flint, Monroe, and Ann Arbor, respectively). It had a population of 5,318,744 as of the 2010 census and covers an area of 5,814 square miles [[15,060 km²).

That's just the larger CSA... the smaller MSA [[Metropolitan Statistical Area) for other cities is larger than Detroits....

By U.S. Census Bureau standards, the population of the Atlanta region spreads across a metropolitan area of 8,376 square miles

Go check out the CSA and MSA sizes of other cities.... and you will find that some of these cover absurdly larger areas than Detroit does.

I live in SCS, and used to work in Ann Arbor... I always viewed it as a suburb.... a distant one... yes... but still a suburb. Cities like Atlanta, Houston, Dallas/Fort Worth and many other cities have ones even farther spread out than the Detroit example.

I know the people of Ann Arbor absolutely HATE being considered a suburb of Detroit... [[just ask former DYES member Citylover.. he used to foam at the mouth over the mere suggestion)... but in the national way of measuring... it is part of our greater metro area... going by the same unit of measurement that is used in other cities on the Amazon list.

[iheartthed]

Ann Arbor's being excluded from the Detroit MSA has absolutely nothing to do with its distance from Detroit. You can drive from Ann Arbor to the DTW in 20 minutes. It is actually closer to the region's major airport than much of the Detroit MSA, and even parts of Detroit itself.

It is only by a technicality that it is not in the Detroit MSA. Because of the presence of the University of Michigan, not enough residents of Washtenaw County cross the county line to go to work. And because Wayne County is so much larger than Washtenaw, the percentage of Wayne County residents who commute to Washtenaw is not enough to meet the threshold to include it in the MSA definition.

To look at it another way, Romeo, MI is part of the Detroit MSA and is roughly the same distance from downtown as is Ann Arbor. I doubt there is much of a difference in the percentage of Romeo residents who commute to Detroit versus the percentage of Ann Arbor residents.

I live in SCS, and used to work in Ann Arbor... I always viewed it as a suburb.... a distant one... yes... but still a suburb. Cities like Atlanta, Houston, Dallas/Fort Worth and many other cities have ones even farther spread out than the Detroit example.

I know the people of Ann Arbor absolutely HATE being considered a suburb of Detroit... [[just ask former DYES member Citylover.. he used to foam at the mouth over the mere suggestion)... but in the national way of measuring... it is part of our greater metro area... going by the same unit of measurement that is used in other cities on the Amazon list.

Ann Arbor isn't a suburb but it IS part of Metro Detroit. But we're all pretty much splitting hairs here arguing about whether Ann Arbor is part of Metro Detroit.

[313WX]

OK, then name a DESTINATION [[what does this even mean?) that is 40 miles away from a Sunbelt city that is directly associated with that city.

What "standard"? What are you even talking about?

U of M is NOT in metro Detroit. Per the U.S. Census, Metro Detroit does not include Ann Arbor. No one in AA considers themselves to be "Detroit".

Atlanta

Newnan, GA - 40 Miles away from downtown Atlanta [[considered an Atlanta suburb)

Cartersville, GA - 40 miles away from downtown Atlanta [[considered an Atlanta suburb)

Athens, GA - 70 miles away from downtown Atlanta [[considered a suburb)

Carrollton, GA - 50 miles away from downtown [[considered a suburb)

Houston

Galveston, TX - 50 miles away from downtown [[considered a suburb)

Conroe, TX - 40 miles away from downtown [[considered a suburb)

Dallas

Denton, TX - 40 miles away from downtown [[considered a suburb)

Nashville

Murfreesboro, TN - 35 miles away from downtown [[considered a suburb)

Miami

Pompano Beach, FL - 37 miles away from downtown [[considered a suburb)

Coral Springs, FL - 46 miles away from downtown [[considered a suburb)

Ask anyone from these aforementioned places and they'd proudly say they're from the core city.

Yet, Ann Arbor, a city that receives its electricity from *DETROIT* Edison, is in *DETROIT'S* television market, utilizes *DETROIT'S* airport is not a part of Detroit. Give me a fucking break.

It's not going to be the the lack of mass transit that kills Michigan's chances at landing Amazon, but the provincialism that permeates around here and the inability to enter the 21st century [[instead remaining stuck in the 1970s) that will do it.

[Bham1982]

Atlanta

Newnan, GA - 40 Miles away from downtown Atlanta [[considered an Atlanta suburb)

The only city you listed that has anything to do with what we're talking about is Athens, GA, home to University of Georgia.

No one from Athens, GA would say they're from Atlanta, and Athens isn't a part of the Atlanta metro. So, yeah, same deal as Ann Arbor and Detroit; separate metros and basically unrelated.

[iheartthed]

The only city you listed that has anything to do with what we're talking about is Athens, GA, home to University of Georgia.

No one from Athens, GA would say they're from Atlanta, and Athens isn't a part of the Atlanta metro. So, yeah, same deal as Ann Arbor and Detroit; separate metros and basically unrelated.

Athens is an hour and a half drive from Atlanta.

A better analogy is San Francisco to Stanford, which is about the same distance as Detroit to Ann Arbor.

[dtowncitylover]

So, yeah, same deal as Ann Arbor and Detroit; separate metros and basically unrelated.

Is there some giant wall that I'm not seeing when I drive to work to Ann Arbor every day from the Woodward Corridor?

[313WX]

Barely anyone from U-M ends up in Detroit.

I don't blame a relatively higher number of them compared to other state university graduates not ending up in Michigan. It's an economic blackhole, for all intents and purposes, with the shrinking and slowly dying auto industry.

That said, if Michigan was creating jobs like Georgia and Texas, it'd be a different story.

[313WX]

Austin and Raleigh simply don't have the infrastructure to handle that type of shot in the arm. It would defeat Amazon's whole purpose of leaving Seattle if the city selected is going to become a traffic gridlock and face ridiculous COL increases to the lack of housing. Furthermore, good luck getting a millennial-centric company to consider any place in NC after the crap with the bathroom bill.

BTW, I tend to think they would want a city that's not prone to Hurricanes [[given that Bezos is a global warming nut), extreme droughts or nasty severe weather, as well as a city that's a Delta hub like Seattle [[to negotiate even bigger volume-based discounts for flights).

Based on the aforementiineoned criteria, that leaves Minneapolis, Atlanta and Detroit.

[emu steve]

I wonder about weather, not hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, etc. [[the state of Oklahoma would never have been considered but the later two might disqualify them, anyways).

I think we can dis-qualify California, Texas, Florida, etc.

Yes, N.C. is politically toxic, still.

I would add No. Virginia to the list of three cities above. It has a very livable climate and nothing bad weather wise happens out by Tysons or Dulles Airport.

Some think Denver has a real shot.

Now to the weather point: Would a city with harsh winters be ruled out?

Minneapolis-St. Paul is hardly San Francisco, Seattle, etc. Havens for millennials.

Would Bezos pick the Twin Cities or Detroit over Atlanta? Is weather a big enough factor?

[Bham1982]

Austin and Raleigh simply don't have the infrastructure to handle that type of shot in the arm.

Amazon just needs secondary office space. Can you explain why these major metros would be unable to provide office space?

It would defeat Amazon's whole purpose of leaving Seattle if the city selected is going to become a traffic gridlock and face ridiculous COL increases to the lack of housing.

There's no housing in North Carolina or Texas? Have you been to these places?

And since when did Amazon claim that it's expanding outside Seattle to avoid traffic and housing costs? For all we know they could be moving somewhere expensive and congested, like NYC. It's certainly more likely than Detroit.

Furthermore, good luck getting a millennial-centric company to consider any place in NC after the crap with the bathroom bill.

NC and MI are basically indistinguishable politically. Why would a company not put office space in NC because of a failed, stupid bill? And MI, home to poisonous water, Kid Rock and Rust Belt decline, is nationally attractive to Millennials? LOL.

BTW, I tend to think they would want a city that's not prone to Hurricanes [[given that Bezos is a global warming nut), extreme droughts or nasty severe weather, as well as a city that's a Delta hub like Seattle [[to negotiate even bigger volume-based discounts for flights).

Raleigh and Austin get hurricanes? And Michigan lacks severe weather? And Amazon is adding space based on fear of weather? The things one learns on DYes.

[313WX]

In any case, Detroit isn't getting it, and Boston isn't getting it...

Well Fortune Teller Bham1982, why don't you also tell us what the winning lotto numbers will be tonight?

[wolverine]

So while all the debating is going on here. Where's the development exhibits...renderings..site plans...construction timelines...programming? .

[dtowncitylover]

Is Ann Arbor part of Metro Detroit?

40 years ago [[which is where we seem to be stuck around here) Metro Detroit was the three major counties. Past Metro Airport on 94 was farmland going to Ann Arbor was a fun day trip and a world away.

Today, that's not the case. 275 is heavily built with many living in Canton, Plymouth, and Novi working either in Southfield/Detroit or Ann Arbor. Many in Brighton and South Lyon also working in Southfield/Detroit or Ann Arbor.

Ann Arbor people think very highly of themselves as well. As much as Detroit is the "cool" thing, they live in their own bubble beltway. BUT, there have been great strides over the past few years to get UM into the Detroit world. They have the UM Detroit Center, they have a summer in Detroit program, and architecture students visit Detroit [[as I'm sure they've always done).

As well the RTA puts Washtenaw in with the three traditional metro counties, which is important.

So is Ann Arbor part of Detroit? It might be like what we say about art, but it's much more apart of the region than any time previously since it left in 1837.

And considering UM was founded in Detroit and was here for 20 years, it's linked with Detroit either way.

[aj3647]

Today, that's not the case. 275 is heavily built with many living in Canton, Plymouth, and Novi working either in Southfield/Detroit or Ann Arbor. Many in Brighton and South Lyon also working in Southfield/Detroit or Ann Arbor.

There are people who live in Toledo and Windsor who work in Detroit too. I guess those must also be "Metro Detroit", eh?

Ann Arbor people think very highly of themselves as well. As much as Detroit is the "cool" thing, they live in their own bubble beltway. BUT, there have been great strides over the past few years to get UM into the Detroit world. They have the UM Detroit Center, they have a summer in Detroit program, and architecture students visit Detroit [[as I'm sure they've always done).

So because some UofM students sometimes venture into Detroit, Ann Arbor is therefore part of Metro Detroit? MSU's Osteopathic medical school has a campus in Detroit, therefore I declare East Lansing to be a suburb of Detroit.

As well the RTA puts Washtenaw in with the three traditional metro counties, which is important.

They included it as part of the regional transit planning for Southeast Michigan. In no way however does that mean that Ann Arbor is a suburb of Detroit or is considered to be part of the Detroit MSA.

And considering UM was founded in Detroit and was here for 20 years, it's linked with Detroit either way.

Yeah, UofM was in Detroit...180 years ago. The state capital used to be in Detroit too. Not sure what relevance any of that has to anything.

Ann Arbor is still not a suburb of Detroit.

[dtowncitylover]

Ann Arbor is still not a suburb of Detroit.

I never said Ann Arbor was a suburb of Detroit, but I also don't think it's not part of the metropolitan area. I don't think it is a suburb. San Fransisco, Oakland, and San Jose are all separate cities but together from the Bay Area metro.

Of course, I'm not sure what the upside is continually separating Ann Arbor and Detroit? You'd think we'd all want to be together so we can grow together. Detroit has the "big city" life, Ann Arbor has the educational resources, why must they exist exclusively of each other.

And yeah, many do consider Windsor a part of the Metro Detroit area in a mindset kind of way. They are Tigers and Wings fans, they do commerce over here and we over there, they work here, we work there, they're everything but citizens.

[aj3647]

I never said Ann Arbor was a suburb of Detroit, but I also don't think it's not part of the metropolitan area. I don't think it is a suburb. San Fransisco, Oakland, and San Jose are all separate cities but together from the Bay Area metro.

I think traditionally, "Metro Detroit" has been defined as the tri-county area [[Wayne, Oakland, Macomb). SMART, for example, operates in those three counties but does not include Washtenaw County.

Now if we're talking the actual metropolitan area as defined by the federal government, that still does not include Washtenaw County. The Metropolitan Statistical Area [[MSA) for Detroit, as defined by the government, is made up of Lapeer, Livingston, Macomb, Oakland, St. Clair, and Wayne Counties.

Distance does matter. If I get in my car right now and want to drive from downtown Ann Arbor to downtown Detroit, assuming there is absolutely no traffic or construction on the freeways, that's a solid 45 minute drive. That's really only about 15 minutes less than it takes to drive to Lansing from Ann Arbor and maybe 5 or 10 minutes less than it takes to drive from Ann Arbor to Flint.

Lots of people in Ann Arbor love Detroit, they love going there, there's fun stuff to do there. Does that mean that they feel that AA is part of Metropolitan Detroit? Not necessarily. Part of that is Ann Arbor is large and vibrant enough to act as its own draw, such that there is no real need to travel to Detroit on a regular basis for things like food or entertainment or culture. There is a such a thing as the Ann Arbor bubble.

Example: if you live in the burbs and you are travelling and someone asks you where you are from, what do most people say? "Detroit." Why? Because nobody outside of Michigan knows what the fuck Southgate or Roseville or Livonia or any of those places are. They're suburbs. When I get asked that question, I say "Ann Arbor." Even people outside Michigan know what Ann Arbor is.

So if mindset matters, then ask yourself if most people in Ann Arbor consider themselves Metro Detroit. I don't think that's something you just get to declare on behalf of those who live in Ann Arbor.

[iheartthed]

Now if we're talking the actual metropolitan area as defined by the federal government, that still does not include Washtenaw County. The Metropolitan Statistical Area [[MSA) for Detroit, as defined by the government, is made up of Lapeer, Livingston, Macomb, Oakland, St. Clair, and Wayne Counties.

This really doesn't mean much. Detroit and Ann Arbor are part of the same CSA, which was created to clarify closely linked cities/region associations like Detroit/Ann Arbor that are not captured by MSA designations. San Francisco is also not part of the same MSA as Silicon Valley, for instance, but they are part of the same CSA.

[dtowncitylover]

http://www.annarbor.com/news/conan-s...why-it-should/

Here's an article from 5 years about the Ann Arbor-Detroit relationship. I think we need to continue to breakdown this "Napier Rd barrier" if we want both Detroit and Ann Arbor to grow. Ann Arbor's benefit to being a metro Detroit city would be investment, as the article says. Detroit obviously would be getting top talent. Many who stay, stay in Ann Arbor and that's it.

[EGrant]

I don't think AA is part of Detroit, but the two cities are very closely connected, which should be a valuable piece of the Amazon pitch.

[313WX]

BEST ROAD SYSTEM IN THE COUNTRY?! Are you insane? What Detroit are you referring to? The roads here are beyond AWFUL and are always littered with potholes, broken traffic lights and lack of signage.

First off, I said road *SYSTEM* [[as in grid pattern and road capacity), not conditions. There's a difference.

Second, you should get out more. It's hell trying to navigate through cities in other parts of the country because of the very narrow streets and the lack of a coherent street grid. And if you think signage is bad here, try driving in any sunbelt city and then get back to me. The conditions of roads can easily be improved if people stopped with the penny pinching around here, but you can't easily correct a fucked up road system.