Amazon Looking for a new HQ - Detroit-Windsor Bid Rejected

[davewindsor]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.6ecd31fe9d9f

Interesting that a Bezos owned newspaper and personal propaganda machine is saying that Detroit is in the running, while eliminating 79 other possibilities. That has credibility.

[Towne Cluber]

Hell, MIT is closer to Boston's core than Wayne State is to Detroit's core.

Once again, an exaggeration.

The edge of MIT's campus is closer to the edge of Boston than WSU is to Detroit's core--however, the heart of MIT's campus to the heart of Boston is about the same distance as the center of WSU from the center of Downtown Detroit.

[Junjie]

-No robust public transit system, either in the city or regionally

I'll give you that. But to also be fair, Detroit has arguably the best road system in the country, which mitigates the need for transit to an extent. The road system in Seattle sucks. Furthermore, Seattle's transit system was mediocre at best before Amazon blossomed, so transit may not even be a dealbreaker.

Saying "Detroit has good roads so it's ok" fundamentally misunderstands why Amazon wants a city with a good transit system. A meaningful fraction of young, talented employees refuse to waste an hour or more of their day driving a car, and they have good prospects in cities where they aren't forced to do so [[Bay, NYC, DC, Chicago, and soon Seattle). This is about Amazon being able to appeal to every potential employee, not about whether people who will be making $100k+ can figure out a way to physically get to the building.

As to Seattle, Bezos founded the company in 1994. He did so where he happened to live at the time, had no guarantee that years later he'd be hiring thousands of employees, and anyway the trend of young people seeking out urban living had yet to materialize. Today, Seattle has about 90 miles of grade-separated light rail under active construction in addition to their existing 21-mile line, which puts it decades ahead of Detroit on the transit front. The completed system around 2035 will be about as extensive as the DC Metro before the Silver Line was built. Detroit might have 9 miles of streetcar and 40 miles of rapid buses by then in the best case scenario.

[emu steve]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.81799e120df4

Article that companies should move jobs [[think HQ2) to were the workers are rather than try to force workers to pay expensive housing, commutes, etc. [[and increased salary). None of it increases worker productivity.

[casscorridor]

Here are some potential sites:

Packard Plant
Uniroyal site next to Belle Isle
MCS
New Center parking lots

any would be a coup for the city.

[Bham1982]

Again, who cares.

In the sunbelt cities that everyone's crazy about, 40 mile drives / commutes between destinations is perfectly routine. Why should Detroit be held to a different standard?

Name a Sunbelt city that is associated with an institution 40 miles away, in a different metro area.

U-M isn't a Detroit school. Barely anyone from U-M ends up in Detroit, and the linkages are pretty weak. It's a global university that happens to be an hour away from Detroit, but the grads end up throughout the world. In contrast, somewhere like MIT is obviously intertwined with the Boston tech ecosystem.

[Bham1982]

Once again, an exaggeration.

The edge of MIT's campus is closer to the edge of Boston than WSU is to Detroit's core--however, the heart of MIT's campus to the heart of Boston is about the same distance as the center of WSU from the center of Downtown Detroit.

MIT is directly across a bridge from downtown Boston. It's physically closer.

In any case, Detroit isn't getting it, and Boston isn't getting it, and Amazon doesn't seem to care about local universities, so I don't see the point of this comparison. It will probably go somewhere cheap, subsidy-friendly and tech-focused, like Austin or Raleigh-Durham.

[313WX]

Name a Sunbelt city that is associated with an institution 40 miles away, in a different metro area.

Nice try with your attempt to twist my words. I said DESTINATIONS, which isn't limited to an institutuion.

So again, I ask why should Detroit be held to a different standard?

U-M isn't a Detroit school.

U of M is in Metro Detroit. I'm pretty sure Amazon said METROPOLITAN AREA. Did you not read the RFP?

[313WX]

Barely anyone from U-M ends up in Detroit.

I don't blame a relatively higher number of them compared to other state university graduates not ending up in Michigan. It's an economic blackhole, for all intents and purposes, with the shrinking and slowly dying auto industry.

That said, if Michigan was creating jobs like Georgia and Texas, it'd be a different story.

[313WX]

Austin and Raleigh simply don't have the infrastructure to handle that type of shot in the arm. It would defeat Amazon's whole purpose of leaving Seattle if the city selected is going to become a traffic gridlock and face ridiculous COL increases to the lack of housing. Furthermore, good luck getting a millennial-centric company to consider any place in NC after the crap with the bathroom bill.

BTW, I tend to think they would want a city that's not prone to Hurricanes [[given that Bezos is a global warming nut), extreme droughts or nasty severe weather, as well as a city that's a Delta hub like Seattle [[to negotiate even bigger volume-based discounts for flights).

Based on the aforementiineoned criteria, that leaves Minneapolis, Atlanta and Detroit.

[313WX]

In any case, Detroit isn't getting it, and Boston isn't getting it...

Well Fortune Teller Bham1982, why don't you also tell us what the winning lotto numbers will be tonight?

[aj3647]

Would it take a decade? I don't think so.

The Q-line took three years to build and planning began in 2009, so just that relatively modest transportation project took eight years to complete. And that's being generous on my part, since the feasibility studies for it began back in 2006.

Planning for the Ann Arbor-Detroit light rail system, which is scheduled to open in 2022, began in 2009 with fleet railcar testing starting in 2012. So that project is on a 10-15 year timeline.

But yeah, keep on telling me on how we can build regional transit overnight.

[emu steve]

I wonder about weather, not hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, etc. [[the state of Oklahoma would never have been considered but the later two might disqualify them, anyways).

I think we can dis-qualify California, Texas, Florida, etc.

Yes, N.C. is politically toxic, still.

I would add No. Virginia to the list of three cities above. It has a very livable climate and nothing bad weather wise happens out by Tysons or Dulles Airport.

Some think Denver has a real shot.

Now to the weather point: Would a city with harsh winters be ruled out?

Minneapolis-St. Paul is hardly San Francisco, Seattle, etc. Havens for millennials.

Would Bezos pick the Twin Cities or Detroit over Atlanta? Is weather a big enough factor?

[Bham1982]

Nice try with your attempt to twist my words. I said DESTINATIONS, which isn't limited to an institutuion.

OK, then name a DESTINATION [[what does this even mean?) that is 40 miles away from a Sunbelt city that is directly associated with that city.

So again, I ask why should Detroit be held to a different standard?

What "standard"? What are you even talking about?

U of M is in Metro Detroit. I'm pretty sure Amazon said METROPOLITAN AREA. Did you not read the RFP?

U of M is NOT in metro Detroit. Per the U.S. Census, Metro Detroit does not include Ann Arbor. No one in AA considers themselves to be "Detroit".

[Bham1982]

Austin and Raleigh simply don't have the infrastructure to handle that type of shot in the arm.

Amazon just needs secondary office space. Can you explain why these major metros would be unable to provide office space?

It would defeat Amazon's whole purpose of leaving Seattle if the city selected is going to become a traffic gridlock and face ridiculous COL increases to the lack of housing.

There's no housing in North Carolina or Texas? Have you been to these places?

And since when did Amazon claim that it's expanding outside Seattle to avoid traffic and housing costs? For all we know they could be moving somewhere expensive and congested, like NYC. It's certainly more likely than Detroit.

Furthermore, good luck getting a millennial-centric company to consider any place in NC after the crap with the bathroom bill.

NC and MI are basically indistinguishable politically. Why would a company not put office space in NC because of a failed, stupid bill? And MI, home to poisonous water, Kid Rock and Rust Belt decline, is nationally attractive to Millennials? LOL.

BTW, I tend to think they would want a city that's not prone to Hurricanes [[given that Bezos is a global warming nut), extreme droughts or nasty severe weather, as well as a city that's a Delta hub like Seattle [[to negotiate even bigger volume-based discounts for flights).

Raleigh and Austin get hurricanes? And Michigan lacks severe weather? And Amazon is adding space based on fear of weather? The things one learns on DYes.

[wolverine]

So while all the debating is going on here. Where's the development exhibits...renderings..site plans...construction timelines...programming? .

[aj3647]

U of M is NOT in metro Detroit. Per the U.S. Census, Metro Detroit does not include Ann Arbor. No one in AA considers themselves to be "Detroit".

Yeah, I live in Ann Arbor and I don't know what the hell 313WX is talking about here. Absolutely no one considers Washtenaw County to be "Metro Detroit." Are Dexter and Chelsea suburbs of Detroit also?

[dtowncitylover]

Is Ann Arbor part of Metro Detroit?

40 years ago [[which is where we seem to be stuck around here) Metro Detroit was the three major counties. Past Metro Airport on 94 was farmland going to Ann Arbor was a fun day trip and a world away.

Today, that's not the case. 275 is heavily built with many living in Canton, Plymouth, and Novi working either in Southfield/Detroit or Ann Arbor. Many in Brighton and South Lyon also working in Southfield/Detroit or Ann Arbor.

Ann Arbor people think very highly of themselves as well. As much as Detroit is the "cool" thing, they live in their own bubble beltway. BUT, there have been great strides over the past few years to get UM into the Detroit world. They have the UM Detroit Center, they have a summer in Detroit program, and architecture students visit Detroit [[as I'm sure they've always done).

As well the RTA puts Washtenaw in with the three traditional metro counties, which is important.

So is Ann Arbor part of Detroit? It might be like what we say about art, but it's much more apart of the region than any time previously since it left in 1837.

And considering UM was founded in Detroit and was here for 20 years, it's linked with Detroit either way.

[EGrant]

I don't think AA is part of Detroit, but the two cities are very closely connected, which should be a valuable piece of the Amazon pitch.

[aj3647]

Today, that's not the case. 275 is heavily built with many living in Canton, Plymouth, and Novi working either in Southfield/Detroit or Ann Arbor. Many in Brighton and South Lyon also working in Southfield/Detroit or Ann Arbor.

There are people who live in Toledo and Windsor who work in Detroit too. I guess those must also be "Metro Detroit", eh?

Ann Arbor people think very highly of themselves as well. As much as Detroit is the "cool" thing, they live in their own bubble beltway. BUT, there have been great strides over the past few years to get UM into the Detroit world. They have the UM Detroit Center, they have a summer in Detroit program, and architecture students visit Detroit [[as I'm sure they've always done).

So because some UofM students sometimes venture into Detroit, Ann Arbor is therefore part of Metro Detroit? MSU's Osteopathic medical school has a campus in Detroit, therefore I declare East Lansing to be a suburb of Detroit.

As well the RTA puts Washtenaw in with the three traditional metro counties, which is important.

They included it as part of the regional transit planning for Southeast Michigan. In no way however does that mean that Ann Arbor is a suburb of Detroit or is considered to be part of the Detroit MSA.

And considering UM was founded in Detroit and was here for 20 years, it's linked with Detroit either way.

Yeah, UofM was in Detroit...180 years ago. The state capital used to be in Detroit too. Not sure what relevance any of that has to anything.

Ann Arbor is still not a suburb of Detroit.

[dtowncitylover]

Ann Arbor is still not a suburb of Detroit.

I never said Ann Arbor was a suburb of Detroit, but I also don't think it's not part of the metropolitan area. I don't think it is a suburb. San Fransisco, Oakland, and San Jose are all separate cities but together from the Bay Area metro.

Of course, I'm not sure what the upside is continually separating Ann Arbor and Detroit? You'd think we'd all want to be together so we can grow together. Detroit has the "big city" life, Ann Arbor has the educational resources, why must they exist exclusively of each other.

And yeah, many do consider Windsor a part of the Metro Detroit area in a mindset kind of way. They are Tigers and Wings fans, they do commerce over here and we over there, they work here, we work there, they're everything but citizens.

[dtowncitylover]

http://www.annarbor.com/news/conan-s...why-it-should/

Here's an article from 5 years about the Ann Arbor-Detroit relationship. I think we need to continue to breakdown this "Napier Rd barrier" if we want both Detroit and Ann Arbor to grow. Ann Arbor's benefit to being a metro Detroit city would be investment, as the article says. Detroit obviously would be getting top talent. Many who stay, stay in Ann Arbor and that's it.

[davewindsor]

The Q-line took three years to build and planning began in 2009, so just that relatively modest transportation project took eight years to complete. And that's being generous on my part, since the feasibility studies for it began back in 2006.

Planning for the Ann Arbor-Detroit light rail system, which is scheduled to open in 2022, began in 2009 with fleet railcar testing starting in 2012. So that project is on a 10-15 year timeline.

But yeah, keep on telling me on how we can build regional transit overnight.

You don't need to build an Ann Arbor-Detroit light rail system overnight.

There already are passenger cars running daily back and forth between the Amtrack Station at 11 W. Baltimore and Ann Arbor. You get on the Q-Line from downtown and it takes you right to the Amtrack station. There's also tracks still there running from the MCS to the Amtrack that could have a passenger car[[s) added to it.

Initially, you simply add more passenger cars to the tracks as the demand increases. Then, if it ever hits capacity, which I doubt, you run another parallel railway line to Ann Arbor.

They are not at capacity now because I looked online and I can still buy a ticket for any of the passenger trains running today from Detroit to Ann Arbor for $14 coach and it's an estimated time of 40 minutes each way, so why would there be a rush to build something that's not needed today? If Amazon signs a commitment, ok then there will be a rush and it will be built a lot quicker than 10-15 years.

[warsaw7]

What a bunch of crap.

-No robust public transit system, either in the city or regionally

I'll give you that. But to also be fair, Detroit has arguably the best road system in the country, which mitigates the need for transit to an extent. The road system in Seattle sucks. Furthermore, Seattle's transit system was mediocre at best before Amazon blossomed, so transit may not even be a dealbreaker.

BEST ROAD SYSTEM IN THE COUNTRY?! Are you insane? What Detroit are you referring to? The roads here are beyond AWFUL and are always littered with potholes, broken traffic lights and lack of signage. Not a day goes by that I don't see a sign chopped down and laying flat on the pavement. Not to mention the amount of accidents I have almost encountered because of confused drivers. And I am not talking about out-of-town/state drivers, I am talking about locals. People in Detroit do not pay any attention to the speed limits, the traffic signals and have no regard for bike lanes.

I think you need to leave the pool immediately.

[aj3647]

I never said Ann Arbor was a suburb of Detroit, but I also don't think it's not part of the metropolitan area. I don't think it is a suburb. San Fransisco, Oakland, and San Jose are all separate cities but together from the Bay Area metro.

I think traditionally, "Metro Detroit" has been defined as the tri-county area [[Wayne, Oakland, Macomb). SMART, for example, operates in those three counties but does not include Washtenaw County.

Now if we're talking the actual metropolitan area as defined by the federal government, that still does not include Washtenaw County. The Metropolitan Statistical Area [[MSA) for Detroit, as defined by the government, is made up of Lapeer, Livingston, Macomb, Oakland, St. Clair, and Wayne Counties.

Distance does matter. If I get in my car right now and want to drive from downtown Ann Arbor to downtown Detroit, assuming there is absolutely no traffic or construction on the freeways, that's a solid 45 minute drive. That's really only about 15 minutes less than it takes to drive to Lansing from Ann Arbor and maybe 5 or 10 minutes less than it takes to drive from Ann Arbor to Flint.

Lots of people in Ann Arbor love Detroit, they love going there, there's fun stuff to do there. Does that mean that they feel that AA is part of Metropolitan Detroit? Not necessarily. Part of that is Ann Arbor is large and vibrant enough to act as its own draw, such that there is no real need to travel to Detroit on a regular basis for things like food or entertainment or culture. There is a such a thing as the Ann Arbor bubble.

Example: if you live in the burbs and you are travelling and someone asks you where you are from, what do most people say? "Detroit." Why? Because nobody outside of Michigan knows what the fuck Southgate or Roseville or Livonia or any of those places are. They're suburbs. When I get asked that question, I say "Ann Arbor." Even people outside Michigan know what Ann Arbor is.

So if mindset matters, then ask yourself if most people in Ann Arbor consider themselves Metro Detroit. I don't think that's something you just get to declare on behalf of those who live in Ann Arbor.